Hume against 'QRS'

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

From Treatise on Human Nature

Whatever has the air of a paradox, and is contrary to the first and most unprejudiced notions of mankind, is often greedily embrac'd by philosophers, as shewing the superiority of their science, which cou'd discover opinions so remote from vulgar conception. On the other hand, anything propos'd to us, which causes surprize and admiration, gives such a satisfaction to the mind, that it indulges itself in those agreeable emotions, and will never be persuaded that its pleasure is entirely without foundation. From these dispositions in philosophers and their disciples arises that mutual complaisance betwixt them; while the former furnish such plenty of strange and unaccountable opinions, and the latter so readily believe them. Of this mutual complaisance I cannot give a more evident instance than in the doctrine of infinite divisibility, with the examination of which I shall begin this subject of the ideas of space and time.
'Tis universally allow'd, that the capacity of the mind is limited, and can never attain a full and adequate conception of infinity: And tho' it were not allow'd, 'twould be sufficiently evident from the plainest observation and experience.' 'Tis also obvious, that whatever is capable of being divided in infinitum, must consist of an infinite number of parts, and that 'tis impossible to set any bounds to the number of parts, without setting bounds
at the same time to the division. It requires scarce any, induction to conclude from hence, that the idea, which we form of any finite quality, is not infinitely divisible, but that by proper distinctions and separations we may run up this idea to inferior ones, which will be perfectly simple and indivisible. In rejecting the infinite capacity of the mind, we suppose it may arrive at an end in the division of its ideas; nor are there any possible means of evading the evidence of this conclusion.

'Tis therefore certain, that the imagination reaches a minimum, and may raise up to itself an idea, of which it cannot conceive any sub-division, and which cannot be diminished without a total annihilation. When you tell me of the thousandth and ten thousandth part of a grain of sand, I have a, distinct idea of these numbers and of their different proportions; but the images, which I form in my mind to represent the things themselves, are nothing different from each other, nor inferior to that image, by which I represent the grain of sand itself, which is suppos'd so vastly to exceed them. What consists of parts is distinguishable into them, and what is distinguishable is separable. But whatever we may imagine of the thing, the idea of a grain of sand is not distinguishable, nor separable into twenty, much less into a thousand, ten thousand, or an infinite number of different ideas.'

'Tis the same case with the impressions of the senses as with the ideas of the imagination. Put a spot of ink upon paper, fix your eye upon that spot, and retire to such a distance, that, at last you lose sight of it; 'tis plain, that the moment before it vanish'd the image or impression was perfectly indivisible. 'Tis not for want of rays of light striking on our eyes, that the minute parts of distant bodies convey not any sensible impression; but because they are remov'd beyond that distance, at which their impressions were reduc'd to a minimum, and were incapable of any farther diminution. A microscope or telescope, which renders them visible, produces not any new rays of light, but only spreads those, which always flow'd from them; and by that means both gives parts to impressions, which to the naked eye appear simple and uncompounded, and advances to a' 'minimum, what was formerly imperceptible.

We may hence discover the error of the common opinion, that the capacity of the mind is limited on both sides, and that 'tis impossible for the imagination to form an adequate idea, of what goes beyond a certain degree of minuteness as well as of greatness. Nothing can be more minute, than some ideas, which we form in the fancy; and images, which appear to the senses; since there are ideas and images perfectly simple and indivisible. The only defect of our senses is, that they give us disproportion'd images of things, and represent as minute and uncompounded what is really great and compos'd of a vast number of parts. This mistake we are not sensible of: but taking the impressions of those minute objects, which appear to the senses, to be equal or nearly equal to the objects, and finding by reason, that there are other objects vastly more minute, we too hastily conclude, that these are inferior to any idea of our imagination or impression of our senses. This however is certain, that we can form ideas, which shall be no greater than the smallest atom of the animal spirits of an insect a thousand times less than a mite: And we ought rather to conclude, that the difficulty lies in enlarging our conceptions so much as to form a just notion of a mite, or even of an insect a thousand times less than a mite. For in order to form a just notion of these animals, we must have a distinct idea representing every part of them;, which, according to the system of infinite divisibility, is utterly impossible, and, recording to that of indivisible parts or atoms, is extremely difficult, by reason of the vast number and multiplicity of these parts.



Now, does anyone care?
Boyan
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Boyan »

But who said Hume was with QRS?
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Oh, you must be new here. We've discussed Hume in the past. It may not be up on David's website, but there has been indications that all three lifetime members of QRS enjoyed reading Hume, and believe themselves to have the correct interpretation of his writings. Of particular interest is his interpretations of causality; if you want to step on the toes of QRS, suggest that Hume believed that causality is a fiction and is only empirical. According to the three wise men, he did not believe that cause and effect is entirely empirical -- even though he was an empiricist!!!
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Boyan »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Oh, you must be new here. We've discussed Hume in the past. It may not be up on David's website, but there has been indications that all three lifetime members of QRS enjoyed reading Hume, and believe themselves to have the correct interpretation of his writings. Of particular interest is his interpretations of causality; if you want to step on the toes of QRS, suggest that Hume believed that causality is a fiction and is only empirical. According to the three wise men, he did not believe that cause and effect is entirely empirical -- even though he was an empiricist!!!
Oh I was here and fought in the last great Causation war.It was in July of the year 2007 if I'm not mistaken. I laid my weapons after a few posts, watching Expectantly ironic fighting a lost cause, desperately exchanging fire with David for couple of pages. I couldn't watch for long though.

That one started with me and EI when I gave a standard, strict explanation of his views on causality. But I was clever enough to back off shortly after.
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Imadrongo
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Imadrongo »

You sure are funny Trevor. Put Hume up on the Genius list of great philosophers who agree with your religion/philosophy first....
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Neil: I was going to say "Jesus" or "Diogenes" or "Buddha", but I didn't think you'd care. Hume is, however, definitely a philosopher that has been strongly defended by David in the past. That he hasn't updated his website to reflect this fact is actually commendable: it would be ridiculous to name-drop every philosopher you have ever read. A few sample names is often good enough.

Of all the modern philosophers that you are likely to read in universities, Hume is certainly near the top, if not at the top, of philosophers worth reading. If you have the right sort of eyes, you start to realize he shares a lot of similarities with Nietzsche (which isn't that surprising, since Kant reacted strongly to Hume, Schopenhauer reacted strongly to Kant, and Nietzsche reacted strongly to Schopenhauer). Both, for instance, follow the venerable tradition of trying to shock people into thinking about things that are often taken for granted.

And, well, if you have the right sort of eyes, you realize that both are philosophers in the grand sense of the term, in the tradition that goes back to Thales. (Notice that David does not name-drop Thales on his site, either. But I'm sure there's respect there.)
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Imadrongo
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Imadrongo »

Trevor,
Neil: I was going to say "Jesus" or "Diogenes" or "Buddha", but I didn't think you'd care. Hume is, however, definitely a philosopher that has been strongly defended by David in the past.
You are right. I wouldn't care since all 3 of them actually probably do agree with you. Plaster their names on your wall if you want.
And, well, if you have the right sort of eyes, you realize that both are philosophers in the grand sense of the term, in the tradition that goes back to Thales. (Notice that David does not name-drop Thales on his site, either. But I'm sure there's respect there.)
Not with me.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Neil,
You are right. I wouldn't care since all 3 of them actually probably do agree with you. Plaster their names on your wall if you want.
So, you wouldn't be concerned if it was inaccurate to mention their names?

Is it only offensive when Nietzsche is mentioned in passing as a philosopher of genius? Why are you so prejudiced toward Nietzsche? Do you think he's a moron, and not worth being considered a genius?
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Imadrongo
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Imadrongo »

I think you guys are wrong.
I think Nietzsche is right.
The version of Nietzsche that you present as a member of your genius group is offensive.

Comprende Trevor or do I need to simplify that some more for you?
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

You could stand to be a bit more clear: is it offensive or inaccurate? ie. Does it hurt your feelings or is it false?
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David Quinn
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by David Quinn »

Neil,
I think you guys are wrong.
I think Nietzsche is right.
Is this really true, though?

If it is, then Nietzsche is indeed wrong and those who openly affirm the validity of truth are right.

If it isn't, then we can automatically dismiss it out of hand.

This is just too easy. Let me give you a more strenuous challenge:

I wonder, Neil, if you can create a meaningful post which contains no statements of absolute truth at all. It would be good if you could be consistent with your philosophy for at least one post. Can you do it?

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Imadrongo
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Imadrongo »

David Quinn wrote:I wonder, Neil, if you can create a meaningful post which contains no statements of absolute truth at all. It would be good if you could be consistent with your philosophy for at least one post. Can you do it?
None of my posts make a claim to be absolutely true.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Neil,
None of my posts make a claim to be absolutely true.
But if this is true in all cases, and none of your posts ever claim to be absolutely true, then one of your claims is absolutely true: the one you just made! By being true, this statement would be false!

...hmm, there doesn't seem to be any similar problems if this statement is false. And, if it's false, then some of your claims must be absolutely true.

So either this claim is both true and false, or it is simply false. So, which is it:

1) The claim is true and false, and both none and some of your posts claim to be absolutely true, or
2) The claim is false, and some of your posts claim to be absolutely true?
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by David Quinn »

Neil,
DQ: I wonder, Neil, if you can create a meaningful post which contains no statements of absolute truth at all. It would be good if you could be consistent with your philosophy for at least one post. Can you do it?

NM: None of my posts make a claim to be absolutely true.
This alone is a claim of absolute truth.

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Boyan
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Boyan »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Neil: I was going to say "Jesus" or "Diogenes" or "Buddha", but I didn't think you'd care. Hume is, however, definitely a philosopher that has been strongly defended by David in the past. That he hasn't updated his website to reflect this fact is actually commendable: it would be ridiculous to name-drop every philosopher you have ever read. A few sample names is often good enough.

Of all the modern philosophers that you are likely to read in universities, Hume is certainly near the top, if not at the top, of philosophers worth reading. If you have the right sort of eyes, you start to realize he shares a lot of similarities with Nietzsche (which isn't that surprising, since Kant reacted strongly to Hume, Schopenhauer reacted strongly to Kant, and Nietzsche reacted strongly to Schopenhauer). Both, for instance, follow the venerable tradition of trying to shock people into thinking about things that are often taken for granted.

And, well, if you have the right sort of eyes, you realize that both are philosophers in the grand sense of the term, in the tradition that goes back to Thales. (Notice that David does not name-drop Thales on his site, either. But I'm sure there's respect there.)
You make fine points here Trevor. I must agree.
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David Quinn
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by David Quinn »

I don't rate Hume very highly. I find his thinking pedestrian. He made some good, if fairly obvious, points about causality, which is admirable, but you won't find much wisdom in him.

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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

David Quinn wrote:...Hume... made some good... points about causality, which is admirable[.]
You heard it here first, folks. David admires Hume.
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Re: Hume against 'QRS'

Post by Boyan »

David Quinn wrote:I don't rate Hume very highly. I find his thinking pedestrian. He made some good, if fairly obvious, points about causality, which is admirable, but you won't find much wisdom in him.

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I think that focusing on his contribution to the problem of causality is what makes one
overlook the rest of his philosophy.

He made some interesting, if not ground breaking, points on morality and passions for instance.

Hume posed a threat to religion by criticizing the proofs of God's existence, and the traditional beliefs about God's nature.
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