GENIUS FORUMS

Kevin;

You hold a belief in an ideal of a perfect human being, who “is simply perfectly wise, and never has any delusions about the fundamental nature of reality.” [emphasis added]

Never? How is this determined? What is the time frame? At one time in the past, a “to be perfect human being” would have been not perfect. So, for how long must one be free of delusions to be a perfect human being? For years, months, days, perhaps only moments? And must one be free of delusions into the future? If so, how would you know this about yourself? Or others? Perhaps one is a perfect human being for a moment, moment to moment. But is something perfect if it comes and goes? Is a moment what you meant by never?

clyde

clyde wrote:Kevin; Is the feminine part of the Totality?

The feminine is as much a part of the Totality as rocks are.

Do you love the feminine?

As much as I love rocks.

clyde wrote:You hold a belief in an ideal of a perfect human being, who “is simply perfectly wise, and never has any delusions about the fundamental nature of reality.”

That's right.

Never? How is this determined?

It is determined by delusions never happening.

Before a person becomes perfect they will have at least subtle delusions, but not afterwards.

So, for how long must one be free of delusions to be a perfect human being?

One must have completely dried-up all the tendencies or seeds of delusions, so that none might ever arise again.

Must one be free of delusions into the future?

Yes.

If so, how would you know this about yourself?

A perfect person would be the only person who could have proper knowledge about this.

Or others?

It's impossible to judge for sure what other people are thinking.

But is something perfect if it comes and goes?

Definitely not.

Is a moment what you meant by never?

No.

Kevin;

Well said, truly well said . . . except for this:

One must have completely dried-up all the tendencies or seeds of delusions, so that none might ever arise again.

What are the “seeds” of delusions? How does one “dry-up” the seeds? And how does one know that the seeds have “completely dried-up”?

clyde

clyde wrote:

One must have completely dried-up all the tendencies or seeds of delusions, so that none might ever arise again.

What are the “seeds” of delusions? How does one “dry-up” the seeds? And how does one know that the seeds have “completely dried-up”?

I think you ask a lot of questions which you could work out the answers yourself without too much effort.

The seeds of delusions are subtle mental habits which can grow. They are "dried up" when the seeds are dead, and there is nothing to germinate.

It's just like if you keep a packet of seeds in your cupboard for too many years, they will no longer be able to germinate.

Kevin;

Asking questions is one way to dialogue, but not the only way.

Your analogy to seeds is pretty, but not very beneficial. So-called, but unidentified, "subtle mental habits" are not seeds that grow and you give no directions for "drying-up" the seeds, stating only that the seeds die.

It's just like you found an old dried-up seed and it sprouted into a story about seeds!

clyde

clyde wrote:So-called, but unidentified, "subtle mental habits" are not seeds that grow

They are if they are given the right conditions for germination.

and you give no directions for "drying-up" the seeds, stating only that the seeds die.

You simply do not provide the seeds with the right conditions for germination.

The "subtle mental habits" are of course subtle tendencies of the mind to view things as inherently existing. The vast majority of people however are a long way from dealing with these subtle mental habits. They have yet to deal the the grossest of gross mental habits.

Laird wrote:

Laird: No one is in error.

Kevin: Laird, if you met a suicide bomber who was on his way to blow-up a school full of children, would you tell him that he wasn't wrong in wanting to do so?

In that context I would probably be comfortable using a word like wrong.

So instead of "No one is in error" what you really mean is "Sometimes it's best not to tell people when they are wrong". The latter is probably true, but it's a lot different to what you said at first.

Kevin Solway wrote:You simply do not provide the seeds with the right conditions for germination.

The "subtle mental habits" are of course subtle tendencies of the mind to view things as inherently existing. The vast majority of people however are a long way from dealing with these subtle mental habits. They have yet to deal the the grossest of gross mental habits.

Substituting other vague phrases (e.g. -"the right conditions", "subtle tendencies of the mind", "dealing with", etc.) is more sprouting.

Kevin Solway wrote:

clyde wrote:You hold a belief in an ideal of a perfect human being, who “is simply perfectly wise, and never has any delusions about the fundamental nature of reality.”

That's right.

Kevin Solway wrote:

clyde wrote:But is something perfect if it comes and goes?

Definitely not.

Your belief requires that the perfect human being be unchanging, at least in so far as their never having delusions. Leaving aside the death of such a perfect human being, there are such mundane matters as old age and illness. You seem to be suggesting that the perfect human is immune to the effects of such conditions. Nonsense!

This brings to mind Richard Rose who some considered an enlightened human being (See: http://www.richardrose.org/ and the book written about him, After the Absolute http://www.richardrose.org/atatoc.htm ), but who at the end of his life suffered from Alzheimer’s Disease.

clyde wrote:there are such mundane matters as old age and illness. You seem to be suggesting that the perfect human is immune to the effects of such conditions.

No, I'm not suggesting that. An axe through the skull would end his life the same as it would anyone elses, but it would be unlikely to generate delusions in his mind.

It is also possible that an alien with superior technology is able to implant deluded thoughts in his mind, against his will. That would certainly generate delusions in his mind.

Kevin;

I wrote,

clyde wrote:Your belief requires that the perfect human being be unchanging, at least in so far as their never having delusions. Leaving aside the death of such a perfect human being, there are such mundane matters as old age and illness. You seem to be suggesting that the perfect human is immune to the effects of such conditions. Nonsense!

And you responded,

Kevin Solway wrote:No, I'm not suggesting that. An axe through the skull would end his life the same as it would anyone elses, but it would be unlikely to generate delusions in his mind.

It is also possible that an alien with superior technology is able to implant deluded thoughts in his mind, against his will. That would certainly generate delusions in his mind.

So, leaving aside death and focusing on mundane matters, a so-called ‘perfect human being’ is effected by conditions, which means the so-called ‘perfect human being’ is changing, even to the extent of having delusions!

So much for your belief in the ‘perfect human being’.

clyde

clyde wrote:the so-called ‘perfect human being’ is changing, even to the extent of having delusions!

Certainly.

So much for your belief in the ‘perfect human being’.

They are called "perfect" because they no longer have the seeds of delusion - not because they can't have delusions implanted in their minds by, say, alien technology.

Kevin, if your so-called ‘perfect human beings’ can have delusions, then . . .

So much for your belief in the ‘perfect human being’.

clyde wrote:Kevin, if your so-called ‘perfect human beings’ can have delusions, then . . .

No, a perfect human being can't have delusions, by definition.

If they have delusions (eg, implanted by an alien technology), then they are no longer perfect.

Just like if you perfectly debug a program, and then someone comes along and introduces a new bug into it.


KS

Kevin;

You seem to be clinging to this belief. Let it go. You don't need it.

Like the program that was "perfectly debugged" and now isn't, your so-called 'perfect human being' was perfect, now isn't perfect, and (if the aliens remove their implanted technology) will be perfect tomorrow. Perfect . . . not perfect . . . perfect . . . not perfect . . .

This reminds me of the only joke I have memorized.

clyde

clyde wrote:You seem to be clinging to this belief.

I don't know what you're talking about here, as I've defined the "perfect human" in such a way that it is not unalterable.

For some reason you seem to want the perfect human to be unalterable, but that's not how I've defined it.

If an hyper-dimensional alien devilish race of parasites would sow the seeds of delusions in our minds in such a way that the moment we would root out the seeds completely a new, improved and better cloaked one would be quickly installed? [Yeah, Carlos Castaneda rip-off I know].

Is there a way to falsify this? Is there still perfection (defined as having "dried-up all the tendencies or seeds of delusions") possible in this scenario and which moment would that be?

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:If an hyper-dimensional alien devilish race of parasites would sow the seeds of delusions in our minds in such a way that the moment we would root out the seeds completely a new, improved and better cloaked one would be quickly installed?

Is there a way to falsify this?

No, there's not.

Is there still perfection (defined as having "dried-up all the tendencies or seeds of delusions") possible in this scenario and which moment would that be?

In that case there could be a moment of perfection just after the final seed of subtle delusion disappears and prior to the alien implanting a new one. :-) If of course the alien implants new delusions before you get rid of your old ones, at the same rate as you're getting rid of them, then you've got problems.

Hopefully you manage to detect where these new delusions are coming from and work out a way put the devilish aliens out of action.

In the end, you just do your best. It doesn't matter if you don't achieve absolute perfection - I doubt that anyone has ever achieved that in our world.

Kevin Solway wrote: In the end, you just do your best. It doesn't matter if you don't achieve absolute perfection - I doubt that anyone has ever achieved that in our world.

Perhaps it's therefore better to classify perfection as a completely subjective affair. It can never be absolute truth or established in any absolute manner.

Or classify it as process: perfecting. Like existence is becoming. The only certain thing remains, case by case, is that what once acted as delusion, clouded the view, has disappeared from view.

The perfect person himself would have a pretty good idea whether he was perfect or not, but he would always be wary - because even though he might think he has dried up all his seeds of subtle delusions, he might find new ones appearing out of nowhere.

So yes, even the perfect person would behave in the mode of perfecting, and always on the lookout for any errors or bugs in the system.

And even when he has perfected himself he still has the rest of the Universe to work on - especially those devilish aliens.

man at one with nature is inconceivable.are not the most simple things in the world the most perfect,and their properties the most wond'erful?the source of wisdom.actions unfathomable and incomprehensible,did they exhibit conformity to the great purpose.there are few who can attain to this!
the criterion of action is freedom of movement,timeliness of expression,pleasuring.

Kevin;

I considered responding to your post by continuing to analyze your arguments, but upon reflection I think that only you are in a position to examine your belief and to (eventually) realize the logical inconsistency. You have already admitted that such a ‘perfect human being’ has not been achieved, to which I would only add that, as defined, such perfection is not achievable.

That said, such an ideal, tempered by an understanding that it is an ideal, may be a motivation for greater wisdom and, I would add, greater compassion.

clyde

clyde wrote:Kevin;

I considered responding to your post by continuing to analyze your arguments, but upon reflection I think that only you are in a position to examine your belief and to (eventually) realize the logical inconsistency. You have already admitted that such a ‘perfect human being’ has not been achieved,

Kevin has not said that because he can't say it because there's no way to know for sure one way or another. It may well be that such people have existed and we just don't know about them. It's irrelevant anyway...

to which I would only add that, as defined, such perfection is not achievable.

You say this but I've not seen anything resembling an argument that it's impossible. All I've seen are arguments that a perfect person might lose his perfection via some kind of event or other. But that doesn't say anything meaningful. You have to consider the nature of rebirth. If a perfect person gets an axe to the head (or aliens implant delusions) and that destroys their mind then the perfect person is dead and reborn as someone else. Perfection does not mean someone is able to maintain their state in the face of all the forces of Nature.

Kevin Solway wrote:The perfect person himself would have a pretty good idea whether he was perfect or not, but he would always be wary - because even though he might think he has dried up all his seeds of subtle delusions, he might find new ones appearing out of nowhere.

This is contradictory and seems to negate the possibility of perfection.