GENIUS FORUMS

I challenge this statement. Why are all things illusory? You cannot rationally say that things lack existence.

Sure, things exist, but not inherently & indpendently. Nothing independently and inherenlty exists.

Just look at a wave or a cloud. How is it that a wave or a cloud has any idependent existence?

A wave and a cloud are each the expression of everything else

...and 'things' are understood, taken as "separate things".
A tree is a good example of interdependence.

Lost Prophet wrote:I challenge this statement. Why are all things illusory? You cannot rationally say that things lack existence.

Save yourself some stress prophet, cory will never believe in existence. He's too cool.

...and 'things' are understood, taken as "separate things". A tree is a good example of interdependence.

Sure, a tree we can reasonablely call a thing, and give it thename 'tree'.

It's also important to realize that the tree has no idependent and inherent existence. The soil, the air, water, sunlight, bacteria, cells........all of these consistuents ARE the tree.

Indeedy.

Ahh, so when people say existence is illusory they really mean that nothing can exist independently or inherently?

I suppose that would be an entirely different question then.

Cory Duchesne wrote: Just look at a wave or a cloud. How is it that a wave or a cloud has any idependent existence?

A wave and a cloud are each the expression of everything else

I'm not sure about this... how would a wave be the expression of everything else? Waves do not express the sky or space, for instance...

It seems to me that waves and clouds have very specific definitions... certainly, waves could not exist without the body of water in which they form, but that does not negate their existence.

Cory Duchesne wrote: It's also important to realize that the tree has no idependent and inherent existence. The soil, the air, water, sunlight, bacteria, cells........all of these consistuents ARE the tree.

No, they are not the tree. They need to exist in order for the tree to exist, but they are plainly separate things.

Cory: Just look at a wave or a cloud. How is it that a wave or a cloud has any idependent existence? A wave and a cloud are each the expression of everything else

Lost prophet: I'm not sure about this... how would a wave be the expression of everything else? Waves do not express the sky or space, for instance...

No, if waves expressed only the sky, or only space, then the waves would not be the expression of everything.

Prophet: It seems to me that waves and clouds have very specific definitions...

Well, they are unique manifestations, however, if you want to explain their existence than the only logical way to do that is to say that a wave is the expression of everything, and likewise a cloud is the expression of everything. Everything can be expressed in an infinite amount of ways.

Prophet: certainly, waves could not exist without the body of water in which they form

What would ‘the body of water’ be without gravity, light, temperature, atmosphere, an earth?


Let’s say that I have a cup of water. If I knock the cup over with the swipe of my hand – how should we explain what the ‘spash’ of water that falls out of the cup is? The splash of water that leaves the cup as it is knocked over is the expression of the conditions that it is dictated by, and the conditions that it is dictated by is the expression of other conditions, ad infinitum. The force of my hand, the glass holding the water, the glass tilting, gravity, the nature of water, etc….you can go forever.

cory: It's also important to realize that the tree has no idependent and inherent existence. The soil, the air, water, sunlight, bacteria, cells........all of these consistuents ARE the tree.

Prophet: No, they are not the tree. They need to exist in order for the tree to exist

I am not deying the existence of soil, air, sunlight, bacteria, cells, minerals, atoms, electricity, anions, cations.

Those things are what the tree is.

Tell me how this is not so.

Lost Prophet wrote:

Cory Duchesne wrote: It's also important to realize that the tree has no idependent and inherent existence. The soil, the air, water, sunlight, bacteria, cells........all of these consistuents ARE the tree.

No, they are not the tree. They need to exist in order for the tree to exist, but they are plainly separate things.

You're right prophet. Obviously.

We have a severe infestation of new agey, anti-logical, nihilists up in here.

I am not deying the existence of soil, air, sunlight, bacteria, cells, minerals, atoms, electricity, anions, cations.

Those things are what the tree is.

Tell me how this is not so.

It is so. And all "things" are caused to exist. It is an Absolute Truth.

Not much more is spoken to be true here. And yet is so difficult for some to understand.

As that genius, the Buddha said: Neither from itself nor from another, Nor from both, Nor without a cause, Does anything whatever, anywhere arise.