GENIUS FORUMS

Huang Po says things like,

-If you student of the Way do not awaken...you will overlay Mind with conceptual though...which [is] harmful...
-Let there be silent understanding and no more. Away with all thinking and explaining!
-It is only to be feared that you students of the Way, by the coming into existence of a single thought, may raise a barrier between yourselves and the Way...you need study no doctrines...
-Study leads to the retention of concepts and so the Way is entirely misunderstood
-...learning to halt the concept-forming activities of your own mind...
-Only when you have abandoned all perceptions, there being nothing objective to perceive...only when you ahve rid yourself of the whole gamut of dualistic concepts of the "ignorant" and "Enlightened" category...

How specifically does logic and reasoning fit into this - they being conceptual thought, after all. Is it that conceptual thought kills conceptual thought? And if so is the only reason a Buddha still uses logic is to teach others how NOT to use logic? This realm of no concepts is full consciousness?

How about, instead of attacking the esoteric, you start with a saying of his that you understand. Pick something that he says that is clear in meaning.

Perhaps from this we could extrapolate further into his psyche and philosophy.

Hi Trev, thats a good suggestion. At least for now I'm really just interested in the questions above. I've been thinking about them for a few days and would appreciate any feedback. Rock on...
-S

A true thought, like 2+2=4, is conceptual, but what is the truth of it? Is it conceptual? Can you conceive of the truth of a true thought without imagining the true thought to point you to it?

I think these teachings are for one who is on the brink of enlightenment. This is because one who is enlightened no longer needs to put any effort into understanding reality. He already knows everything he needs to know, conceptually and intuitively. Flawless, effortless, perfection...

Skipair wrote:

How specifically does logic and reasoning fit into this - they being conceptual thought, after all. Is it that conceptual thought kills conceptual thought? And if so is the only reason a Buddha still uses logic is to teach others how NOT to use logic? This realm of no concepts is full consciousness?

Yes, reasoning is used to help the individual find a state of emptiness where concepts are no longer needed. You probably already noticed, but reasoning always destroys or negates the false, which can lead to emptiness. Reasoning is just a tool. One can only discover emptiness through negating what thought patterns in the mind prevent it from emerging.

Reasoning is like the shovel used to smash the sandcastle, so that the ocean can merge with the destroyed castle grains, and both unified entities can return to the sea together.

Matt,

A true thought, like 2+2=4, is conceptual, but what is the truth of it? Is it conceptual?

Yes.

Can you conceive of the truth of a true thought without imagining the true thought to point you to it?

No.

Speaking of emptiness, a great quote of Huang Po's, "Your own mind is the Void."

Worthy of reflection.

Skipair,

Huang Po says things like,

-If you student of the Way do not awaken...you will overlay Mind with conceptual though...which [is] harmful...
-Let there be silent understanding and no more. Away with all thinking and explaining!
-It is only to be feared that you students of the Way, by the coming into existence of a single thought, may raise a barrier between yourselves and the Way...you need study no doctrines...
-Study leads to the retention of concepts and so the Way is entirely misunderstood
-...learning to halt the concept-forming activities of your own mind...
-Only when you have abandoned all perceptions, there being nothing objective to perceive...only when you ahve rid yourself of the whole gamut of dualistic concepts of the "ignorant" and "Enlightened" category...

How specifically does logic and reasoning fit into this - they being conceptual thought, after all. Is it that conceptual thought kills conceptual thought? And if so is the only reason a Buddha still uses logic is to teach others how NOT to use logic? This realm of no concepts is full consciousness?

Huang Po's points can only be properly understood when one has used logic to dismantle the core delusion of life, which is the belief in inherent existence. It is this core delusion which drives us to misguidedly seek Reality within our concepts and perceptions.

So when he speaks of the need to put an end to concepts, he is referring specifically to the need to cease projecting imaginary qualities onto our experiences, qualities that aren't really there. He is not talking about stopping conceptualizing altogether - after all, we still have to conceptualize in order to continue functioning in the world - but about stopping the unnecessary conceptual layering that ignorant people unwittingly drape over their experiences in each moment, which in turn causes them to be emotional and irrational.

Similarly, when he says .......

Only when you have abandoned all perceptions, there being nothing objective to perceive...

...... he doesn't mean we should try and cease having perceptions altogether (and thereby become unconscious), but rather that we should stop trying to perceive the nature of Reality in any particular perception.

Note the "there being nothing objective to perceive" bit. That's the key to understanding this whole matter. Huang Po is articulating the truth that Reality ultimately has no form and cannot be contained within any particular perception or conception. It is only by abandoning the attempt to grasp at Reality conceptually and perceptually that we can begin to understand what Reality is.

Enlightenment actually means "liberation". Liberation from all forms, concepts and perceptions, even while we continue to engage in them.

-

Ryan wrote:Reasoning is like the shovel used to smash the sandcastle, so that the ocean can merge with the destroyed castle grains

Yep, sadly, Ryan is banned from the public beaches of Nova Scotia.

Luckily the child was too young to understand what was going on.

But her father wasn't; he knocked Ryan out cold.

Here is Ryan in court trying to explain his strange philosophy to the judge.

Cory wrote:

Yep, sadly, Ryan is banned from the public beaches of Nova Scotia.

The only reason I might be banned from public beaches is for approaching complete strangers, and conspicuously staring down their tops.

Hahaha

Yeah, when you got drinkin' at the beach, all kinds of crazy stuff would happen. At first it was to my bemusement, but then gradually to my dismay. There is some stuff that I think you allow yourself to remember, but then other stuff that I think you block out.

A typical day at the beach with you would often start out with some beers that gradually led to some inappropriate ogling of women, which they usually tolerated with a bit of annoyance. But then as you grew more intoxicated, your behavior oddly deteriorated into competitive jealous attempts at thwarting the endeavors of small children. For instance - stealing a toddlers ice cream, taking a few bites, and then dropping it in the sand in front of them. Strangely, you'd laugh and walk away flexing your muscles - which was something I never quite understood.

(personally, I thought I got a little too carried away with this one, so i deleted it, but not before you posted your follow up, so I had to put this back in) :)-

(update) Cory, yeah comedy has that affect, so I removed some material, as it was slightly over the top.

Btw, how’s that sage beard coming? I don’t want to brag, but check this most recent snap of my progress. The last I heard you were still having some problems growing in a few patches.

Damn, check out the dreds...

:)

Ryan Rudolph wrote:(update) Cory, yeah comedy has that affect, so I removed some material, as it was slightly over the top.

Btw, how’s that sage beard coming? I don’t want to brag, but check this most recent snap of my progress. The last I heard you were still having some problems growing in a few patches.

That's quite the power beard. You'll earn quite a few devotees with that one.

Me? Let's just say I've devised some facial-hair-enhancing diets and 'workouts at the gym' and leave it at that.

As for my over-reaching parody of you at the beach, a joke about a grown adult aggressively competing with small children was just some phlegm that I've been itching to cough out of me for some time now. Worst case scenario: I'm just helplessly feeding the dark energy of my enfeebled soul.