GENIUS FORUMS

Frank wrote,

....but we can't really say anything definite about it can we?...

Sure we can. All reality is subjective. Thus, every person is intimately familiar with their own reality.

Your fallacy is that you presuppose an objective reality.

Frank has evidently deleted his post while Tharan and I were writing our responses to it.

-

I didn't delete any post at all...what are you talking about?

david:

You are only revealing your own timidity here.

That's fine, I'd call it caution.
Dogma doesn't appeal.

'empty and meaningless' as a notion is my preference....it's an escape...an escape from dogma.
just like the Esc. button on your keyboard gets you out of a program..

...the infinite regress of justifiers to place something on a secure footing that isn't really there...

when I say Myself...I'm just a configuration of processes happening in this instant that changes when the next configuration comes along...I enjoy the flux...there's nothing permanent..nothing remains...

Does Spiritual mean being dogmatic?

frank

frank wrote:

I didn't delete any post at all...what are you talking about?

I'm not sure what happend to it, then. It's no longer there.

DQ: You are only revealing your own timidity here.

f: That's fine, I'd call it caution.
Dogma doesn't appeal.

Funnily enough, I consider you to be one of the most dogmatic people I know.

'empty and meaningless' as a notion is my preference....it's an escape...an escape from dogma.

Don't be naive. This is your dogma. It's a mental trick that you adopt in order to stop thinking about anything too deeply.

when I say Myself...I'm just a configuration of processes happening in this instant that changes when the next configuration comes along...I enjoy the flux...there's nothing permanent..nothing remains...

You don't call this dogma?

Does Spiritual mean being dogmatic?

It means being intelligent and truthful. The specifics of Reality I listed above are open facts that anyone can discover for themselves if they are intelligent and truthful enough. But you do have to want to discover them.

You will never discover them if you keep hiding behind mental tricks all the time, such as instantly dismissing everything people say as being dogma or a script. That's a classic defense mechanism, if ever I've seen one.

-

david:

Quote:
'empty and meaningless' as a notion is my preference....it's an escape...an escape from dogma.

Don't be naive. This is your dogma. It's a mental trick that you adopt in order to stop thinking about anything too deeply.

Yeah, it's a trick devised by Nargajuna...the Void.
...there's so many viewpoints around that culminates in bickering...
well, 'empty and meaningless' emerged as a vibrant vision...

It's Hilarious.

frank

frank wrote:

f: empty and meaningless' as a notion is my preference....it's an escape...an escape from dogma.

DQ: Don't be naive. This is your dogma. It's a mental trick that you adopt in order to stop thinking about anything too deeply.

Yeah, it's a trick devised by Nargajuna...the Void.

You are not even remotely close to being on the same page as Nagarjuna. What a dreamworld you are living in.

Nagarjuna constantly talked about cause and effect, the importance of logic and the illusory nature of all things - for example, here.

You couldn't be further removed from this if you possibly tried.

...there's so many viewpoints around that culminates in bickering...

That is why one has to exercise one's brain and put in the effort to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Simply dismissing it all as dogma is lazy.

well, 'empty and meaningless' emerged as a vibrant vision...

It sure looks like a dead corpse to me.

-

Nagarjuna saw in the concept sunya, a concept which connoted in the early Pali Buddhist literature the lack of a stable, inherent existence in persons, but which since the third century BCE had also denoted the newly formulated number "zero," the interpretive key to the heart of Buddhist teaching, and the undoing of all the metaphysical schools of philosophy which were at the time flourishing around him. Indeed, Nagarjuna's philosophy can be seen as an attempt to deconstruct all systems of thought which analyzed the world in terms of fixed substances and essences. Things in fact lack essence, according to Nagarjuna, they have no fixed nature, and indeed it is only because of this lack of essential, immutable being that change is possible, that one thing can transform into another. Each thing can only have its existence through its lack (sunyata) of inherent, eternal essence. With this new concept of "emptiness," "voidness," "lack" of essence, "zeroness," this somewhat unlikely prodigy was to help mold the vocabulary and character of Buddhist thought forever.

frank

Okay, before we go any further, do you think that Nagarjuna was speaking out of his own knowledge and wisdom here? Or was he just guessing?

Did he grasp the nature of Reality such that he could speak about it with conviction and authority, or did he just have a vague, "sort of" understanding and was given to speculating semi-blindly about it in the dark?

What do you think?

-

millipodium wrote:

bert wrote:

millipodium wrote:

bert wrote: existence is alogical to any 'logic' we know.
there are no facts,only interpretations. - Nietzsche
all facts are inconclusive.FOR A FACT IS A FICTION(CONTRIVED IDEA) OF AN OBVIOUS TRUTH.
we conceive from the whole,and trough particularity,detail destroys.
finding supportable evidence is not difficult, for everything has 'a point of connection' when it is immediate.
impacts alone have meaning.
a reality of illusion is by delusions falsefying each other.
The belief in external things is one of the necessary errors of mankind. - Nietzsche
our external world is a product of the fantasy. - Nietzsche
the world of the 'unreal is just as real and important as the real or actual. - Vaihinger
the real is an epiphenomenon of thought,a result of non-thought,a phenomenon of amnesia.the true real is within us and we project it. - Dali
the map is not the territory - robert anton wilson.
I know that I know nothing - Socrates


equity alone I shall accept.

the illusive phenomenal world is acceptable as the reality that builts connation(see topic empirical genius) and as opportunity for flesh.

so much to say...


my other posts almost alone confirm indefinately.

Yes. History is replete with nihilist bullshit artists. Beats getting a real job.

nihilist belief:(at its core(late Atheism))
material causality is everything.there is nothing which is not caused by something else.

but this is no-explanation.
the world seems accidental and without meaning.

there are no absolutes in terms of importance,meaning or truth that do not arise from the accidental structure of the body brain and its surroundings

...

hmmm...reply dismissed.you have to do better my dear

Yet most people still believe their survival is important, if asked. And since our cognitions develop to help us survive in the world, nihilists which destroy the evolved structures of consciousness, destroy the very mechanisms of survival. The biggies know what they are doing. They hate humanity.

if you ment "those who contain the great Ideas" with 'biggies',then they surely know what they do;they have no opinions!

bert wrote:

millipodium wrote:

bert wrote:

millipodium wrote: Yes. History is replete with nihilist bullshit artists. Beats getting a real job.

nihilist belief:(at its core(late Atheism))
material causality is everything.there is nothing which is not caused by something else.

but this is no-explanation.
the world seems accidental and without meaning.

there are no absolutes in terms of importance,meaning or truth that do not arise from the accidental structure of the body brain and its surroundings

...

hmmm...reply dismissed.you have to do better my dear

Yet most people still believe their survival is important, if asked. And since our cognitions develop to help us survive in the world, nihilists which destroy the evolved structures of consciousness, destroy the very mechanisms of survival. The biggies know what they are doing. They hate humanity.

if you ment "those who contain the great Ideas" with 'biggies',then they surely know what they do;they have no opinions!

You just quoted a bunch of their opinions.

Well, before you go any further, why don't you show us how it is possible for a person to reach certainty if it is the case that all facts are inconclusive. For some reason, you neglected to provide this demonstration the last time I asked.

the first thing I would ask is:
what do we know for certain?for in the complex of differences a "fog" of pretence falls over us and we dogmatize lies.

so it is not difficult to become certain.

but,we are of the Absolute,to a certain extent...
so,if we can't know what is the truth,then perhaps we can establish a 'photograph',learning about truth.answer:all things are essential to truth,for all things are true,so ,both and neither can we know what is inessential to truth.How could anything be untrue?our confusion lies in the relating in space and time.so Truth is enrapped in belief,whatever the outcome.
but if I can not explain it,if it slips lost,then I can assert that I am the living truth.

millipodium wrote:

bert wrote:

millipodium wrote:

bert wrote: nihilist belief:(at its core(late Atheism))
material causality is everything.there is nothing which is not caused by something else.

but this is no-explanation.
the world seems accidental and without meaning.

there are no absolutes in terms of importance,meaning or truth that do not arise from the accidental structure of the body brain and its surroundings

...

hmmm...reply dismissed.you have to do better my dear

Yet most people still believe their survival is important, if asked. And since our cognitions develop to help us survive in the world, nihilists which destroy the evolved structures of consciousness, destroy the very mechanisms of survival. The biggies know what they are doing. They hate humanity.

if you ment "those who contain the great Ideas" with 'biggies',then they surely know what they do;they have no opinions!

You just quoted a bunch of their opinions.

who doth know what his subconsciousness contains?the arcana allows its operation by silence.So counsel closed ears!those contain the great Ideas!

bert wrote:

millipodium wrote:

bert wrote:

millipodium wrote: Yet most people still believe their survival is important, if asked. And since our cognitions develop to help us survive in the world, nihilists which destroy the evolved structures of consciousness, destroy the very mechanisms of survival. The biggies know what they are doing. They hate humanity.

if you ment "those who contain the great Ideas" with 'biggies',then they surely know what they do;they have no opinions!

You just quoted a bunch of their opinions.

who doth know what his subconsciousness contains?the arcana allows its operation by silence.So counsel closed ears!those contain the great Ideas!

Please don't say 'doth'.

bert wrote:

DQ: Well, before you go any further, why don't you show us how it is possible for a person to reach certainty if it is the case that all facts are inconclusive. For some reason, you neglected to provide this demonstration the last time I asked.

B: the first thing I would ask is:
what do we know for certain?for in the complex of differences a "fog" of pretence falls over us and we dogmatize lies.

so it is not difficult to become certain.

Obviously, my question concerned certainty in one's knowledge of truth, not the contrived certainty involved in blindly submitting to a belief-system.

but,we are of the Absolute,to a certain extent...
so,if we can't know what is the truth,then perhaps we can establish a 'photograph',learning about truth.answer:all things are essential to truth,for all things are true,so ,both and neither can we know what is inessential to truth.

If none of us can ever know what the truth is, by what means are you able to pontificate that "all things are true", or that we can establish a "photograph" of the truth?

To give you an idea of just how nonsensical you are sounding to my ears, I am going play a little experiment with you. I am going to provide you with a word which may or may not refer to an object here in Australia. The word is:

"derriwonga"

Now I want you, without any knowledge of what a derriwonga is, to provide me with a photographic description of it, and to describe what other objects are associated with it, if any.

What do you think? Can you do it?

How could anything be untrue?

Just a few seconds ago, you talked about the act of "dogmatizing lies". Now you are suddenly saying there are no lies to dogmatize?

Man, you really are all over the place on this issue.

-

david:

What do you think?

It's more along the lines of what it means to be Human.

Your aim, David, is to 'Rescue Minds from delusion via Reason and Logic'...

This is your Meaning.

It is empty and meaningless...

except that You 'give it meaning'...

'Rescue Minds from delusion via Reason and Logic' requires You for it to have Meaning....you are the Meaning Maker...

You are already Buddha Nature....nothing to add, nothing to subtract...

You have a Story 'Something's Wrong' and You mean to 'fix it'..

You provide the Meaning.

frank

Your defences are impregnable, frank. I admit defeat.

-

Obviously, my question concerned certainty in one's knowledge of truth, not the contrived certainty involved in blindly submitting to a belief-system.

obviously,my answer does that too.you only have to know how to read.

If none of us can ever know what the truth is, by what means are you able to pontificate that "all things are true", or that we can establish a "photograph" of the truth?

you still don't understand!
I know and know not,for when we hit a 'meaning' all meanings become obscure,have no range to clarify,and guessing becomes our way.the simple complex and our logic a tautology of things that qualify or not and must turn over to their opposites.order becomes chaos.
duality is complexity,it is a millions of things emanating.

O yeah,I remember,I've almost said that likewise to you and Mr.Solway about a half year ago.

bert wrote:

I know and know not,for when we hit a 'meaning' all meanings become obscure,have no range to clarify,and guessing becomes our way.the simple complex and our logic a tautology of things that qualify or not and must turn over to their opposites.order becomes chaos.
duality is complexity,it is a millions of things emanating.

Can someone translate this for me?

-

DavidQuinn000 wrote:bert wrote:

I know and know not,for when we hit a 'meaning' all meanings become obscure,have no range to clarify,and guessing becomes our way.the simple complex and our logic a tautology of things that qualify or not and must turn over to their opposites.order becomes chaos.
duality is complexity,it is a millions of things emanating.

Can someone translate this for me?

-

This is the tragic endpoint of postmodern thinking, complete mental breakdown.

QRS translation:

I know and know not

The illusory nature of existence allows for change.

for when we hit a 'meaning' all meanings become obscure, have no range to clarify,and guessing becomes our way.

When A=A is defined, no thing exists, and we enter into our innate Way.

the simple complex and our logic a tautology of things that qualify or not and must turn over to their opposites.order becomes chaos.
duality is complexity,it is a millions of things emanating.

Here, either the psychological 'complex', or simply 'the simple' made 'complex' - made refined. As a result, our years of suffering in samsara and its resulting karma have now been constructed into an ally. This creative process awakens the chaotic mind, another description of emptiness.

I am amazed...really.that people still don't understand.
frank,or sapius,do you recognize?anyone else?suergaz,although gone..


Steven you are on a steady track,with time things will become more clear to you,maybe they are already very clear but your designing ability needs an extra to manifest it in words;although not as a need anyway.when the impact is there,the impact is there.though words govern our life.
work from a/the whole,you know that.knowledge is but the excrement of experience.

you have to forget fear,forget incapacity...that's genius;a matter of bravery,hence its expression always spontaneous.you don't know how or why.

bert wrote:

I am amazed...really.that people still don't understand.

This is because you have no desire to be understood. Your writing style, which so convoluted as to be incoherent, makes this very plain. I realize that English is not your native tongue, but nonetheless, I believe that the disorganized nature of your writing is symptomatic of an evasive mindset.

To be understood is to be exposed, and to be exposed is to risk being found out. Best to hide away where it's safe and warm and nobody can touch you.

-

David,

This quest of yours....Activity.

Without actions, there is no agent. Without those two, there is no effect. Without an effect, there is consequently no subject of experience. Hence, they are all empty. (Nargajuna)

Actions originate from self-clinging. (Nargajuna)

Afflictions are the cause of actions. (Nargajuna)

The Tao is already enlightened...there's nothing to fix is there?

A=A...RDR.

If you Recognise 'affliction'...you will try to 'fix' it=Activity.

Prior to 'differentiation' and prior to 'action' there is 'recogniton'...

If the Tao is already enlightened then how is it 'afflicted'?

Wouldn't the Observer incorporate the 'affliction' in it's own Private Idaho...in it's own flavour of RDR...

Huang Po was asked 'What is Buddha Nature?'..

He replied...

'Who are you when you are not categorising things into good/bad...'

frank

frank,

Without actions, there is no agent. Without those two, there is no effect. Without an effect, there is consequently no subject of experience. Hence, they are all empty. (Nargajuna)

Actions originate from self-clinging. (Nargajuna)

Afflictions are the cause of actions. (Nargajuna)

Are you saying that Nagarjuna was afflicted when he acted to write these things?

The Tao is already enlightened...there's nothing to fix is there?

People are deluded, so there are plenty of things to fix - which, of course, was what motivated Nagarjuna to expound his teachings.

Huang Po was asked 'What is Buddha Nature?'..

He replied...

'Who are you when you are not categorising things into good/bad...'

Huang Po is here making a distinction between what is "good" for the process of becoming enlightened (i.e. comprehending one's true nature which is beyond all duality) and what is "bad" for it (i.e. remaining unconsciously immersed in duality). The reason he is articulating this distinction is because he is aware that people are deluded and afflictions need to be fixed.


-

Without actions, there is no agent. Without those two, there is no effect. Without an effect, there is consequently no subject of experience. Hence, they are all empty. (Nargajuna)

Actions originate from self-clinging. (Nargajuna)

Afflictions are the cause of actions. (Nargajuna)

Are you saying that Nagarjuna was afflicted when he acted to write these things?

By his own definition he was afflicted of course...struck by the Suffering of Others and out of Compassion 'acted' toward relieving the Suffering of Others...

Clinging to Self as Rescuer...as you do...same Script, different Guy.

When you had that 'moment'...where 'all philosophical problems resolved'...in a 'blinding flash of intuition'....

In the moments prior to that there would have been Language...then the 'moment'...then later a search for a Language to describe it....

In that 'moment'...the chain of Cause and Effect you had previously 'travelled' was irrevocably interrupted..discontinued...another Way opened..a Way more oriented in the true Nature of the Tao..

An Act..a Script..a Self...got instantly created.

But the Language is not the 'experience'....and then the Rescuer tries to configure a Language to 'generate' the experience in Others...'in order to'....relieve the Suffering.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong...I'm saying it's an Activity...an Act...and in the Act a Self is created...and what it's about is 'in order to'...effect our Meaning.

Kensho or realising the 'true nature' groks the Act straight away...the 'emptiness'...

There's such Joy in grokking the Act...or Way of Being...the 'emptiness' of it...

Grokking the 'emptiness' delivers such freedom because there's no longer a stake in it...the reward/punishment 'concern' disappears...spontaniety arises...freedom in the Act.

It's this feeling bert 'transmits' to me....that he understands that...

I thank him and I thank you...for your respective Self/Act...

That 'moment'...the 'flash'...

...the euphoria, the lightness of being, the feeling of walking 2 inches above the ground, the heightened senses, the security...yummy.

frank