UG Krishnamurti: Genetic Degradation in Modern Civilization

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Jason wrote:
Yes that is freakin obvious, thank you. What I was attempting to do was highlight that what Cory wrote in the top quote is illogical and poorly conceived. There is no inherent link(currently known) between not being able to genetically engineer a human to be profound and perfectly efficient, and not being able to create a robot that exceeds human intelligence.
I don’t know Jason, I think he is making a good point. To create intelligent beings through genetic engineering should be easier for man than creating intelligent robots.

This is true because with human beings we have already have a blueprint to deal with, a blueprint called life that has been evolving for billions of years right up until the present moment.

With robots we’d need start from scratch, perhaps with some old parts from my VCR.

One would think that if you can’t create human intelligence through manipulation of the genome then it is highly unlikely that it would ever happen with A.I.

Humanity would first have to unlock the secrets of intelligence within the genome and I don’t think we will actually find the formula for intelligence, but rather thousands of instructions that control particular behaviors and tendencies of individuals.

Humanity will probably clone individuals, but the individuals will lead different lives because they’ll exist in different environments surrounded by different people.

So is it possible to insert the information from the genome into a robot? this is problematic you see because the present genome only works within a biological system of organic molecules so one would have to micmic the organic molecules using nanobots.

But the problem with that is there are billion of reactions occurring within your body every ten seconds and they are almost impossible to trace so it would be quite difficult to emulate the biological systems using nanobots.

However humanity will probably try it, but I petty the poor chap who is assigned that 9-5 job. You think Java programming is difficult Jason, well try emulating the human body using nanobots.

Good grief…
User avatar
Jason
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:02 am

Post by Jason »

cosmic_prostitute wrote:I don’t know Jason, I think he is making a good point. To create intelligent beings through genetic engineering should be easier for man than creating intelligent robots.
Sounds like a reasonable assumption but it's highly speculative and uncertain, and the way Cory worded it it sounded like he was certain.
Humanity would first have to unlock the secrets of intelligence within the genome and I don’t think we will actually find the formula for intelligence, but rather thousands of instructions that control particular behaviors and tendencies of individuals.
I think there's a good argument to be made that computers are already intelligent, it just depends on how you define intelligence. Seems every time computers are made to do something that only humans could previously do, that that particular thing is said to no longer be a sign of intelligence - mathematics, chess playing, facial recognition etc.
So is it possible to insert the information from the genome into a robot? this is problematic you see because the present genome only works within a biological system of organic molecules so one would have to micmic the organic molecules using nanobots.
Why go nanobots? You could simulate the whole thing digitally.
However humanity will probably try it, but I petty the poor chap who is assigned that 9-5 job. You think Java programming is difficult Jason, well try emulating the human body using nanobots.

Good grief…
Nah they'll just get a real coder who learnt assembly on his C64 as an eight year old. ;)
User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Jason wrote:
I think there's a good argument to be made that computers are already intelligent.
They aid humanity to either behave it a way that is intelligent or a way that is stupid, but on there own computers are nothing, they are a tool.

Jason wrote:
Why go nanobots? You could simulate the whole thing digitally.
I don’t follow Jason, when I think digital I think radio waves traveling through space, seems fairly limited on its own.
User avatar
Jason
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:02 am

Post by Jason »

Jason wrote:I think there's a good argument to be made that computers are already intelligent.
cosmic_prostitute wrote:They aid humanity to either behave it a way that is intelligent or a way that is stupid, but on there own computers are nothing, they are a tool.
Some humans are unintelligent tools too.
Jason wrote:Why go nanobots? You could simulate the whole thing digitally.
cosmic_prostitute wrote:I don’t follow Jason, when I think digital I think radio waves traveling through space, seems fairly limited on its own.
WTF? Digital=radio waves in space? Where you been living? You talk about Java and then you give this odd idea of what digital is? Something fishy is going on.

I meant that it might be more easily simulated on (digital)computers, rather than physically with nanobots.
User avatar
Cory Duchesne
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Cory Duchesne »

Jason,

I wrote:

(i've contemplated whether or not we can make robots that surpass human intelligence - and I realized that if we can't engineer human genes to make profound and perfectly efficient beings, then we can't make robots that exceed human intelligence)
I'll admit, what was sloppy about this sentence was the casual use of the phrase: 'human intelligence'.

A highly loaded term to say the least.

I think cosmic prostitute originally was trying to provoke a discussion about engineering a human in a way that makes the possibility of it becoming wise, profound, enlightened, a highly likely possibility.

But when undertaking such a task, one must ask; how did Diogones, Buddha, Chang-tsu become wise sages?

I would say that, above and beyond the quality of the environment that one is reared in, each persons enlightenment involves a great deal of emotion, from fear, to egotism, desire for happiness, confusion, hatred for confusion, love of discovery, revelation, etc, etc…

Lets use Quinn, Rowden, and Solway for example.

In order to make robots that are genius in the sense that this board uses the word, we must ask, how did each member of the QRS become wise and profound?

How can you explain the presence and activity of the QRS on this board?

What is driving them?

I say that a wise, enlightened human being is simply functioning according to a limited program that was established via emotion.

The QRS may not be emotional these days (lets at least pretend for the sake of this argument that they are not emotional these days), but the unemotional program that dictates their behavior these days has been established via the unusually wide ranging emotional states of some yesterdays.

The unemotional program of wisdom/genius/enlightenment is like a knot tied by a hand that knows how to tie so well only because it has been driven by a feeling conscience, of being disturbed, fear, etc.

The program of being enlightened and wise may be inexorably begotten from a sense of responsibility that comes from being shocked, frightened, disturbed, there may have been a sense of mystery, of confusion, a feeling or sense of friendship, a feeling of loneliness, of alienation, a feeling of hatred, a painful feeling of inadequacy, inferiority, and thus a love of the absolute truths that trivialize a life of comfort and pleasure and thus diffuse the power of emotion, fear, comfort and pain.

When a wise man goes through the vast and subtle spectrum of emotion, (a requisite for human genius) he is left with an unemotional program that dictates his mental and physical activity.

I have come to realize that the action of the wise is born from meditating upon one thing and one thing only. And that is meditating upon the challenges of survival.

Surviving has implications, and those implications have become enormously complicated due to mans emotional, frightened and excitable nature, and thus man has been forced to contemplate on a complicated level, and this is because his survival has become complicated to the degree that his inputs have become pleasurable.

Animals survive without creating greater and greater problems for themselves, and that is because they do not seek greater and greater pleasures. They forage and hunt whatever nature provides, and they do not contrive to achieve greater comforts.

The program of both the human sage, and the robot sage, is based on the animal task of gathering or aligning itself with certain resources and expending or being propelled by them in order to then engage in the activity of contemplating survival even more deeply, with greater and greater hindsight and foresight.

The program of your typical human, because he so corrupted by comfort and pleasure, is to engage in the activity of escaping from the thing that has become uncomfortable and depressing for him – and that thing is long-term survival.

A wise program of intelligence will move the being into activity solely for the sake of surviving indefinitely.

A robot programmed to function on the level of an enlightened sage would probably be moved into action the moment it acknowledges any sort of activity that poses a threat to its survival.

It would probably find the animals of earth more rational than most humans.

Wisdom comes from evaluating a situation based on the involuntary preference to survive, rather than to adjust and become like those who are programmed to enjoy and feel pleasure, comfort and thus gradually degrade and self-destruct.

Humanities chances of survival decrease to the extent that it comforts itself.

A human will only be able to make a robot according to the interpretation the human has of itself.

In other words, Robots will be made in the image of Man, as man was reportedly made in the image of God.

The robots that man makes, if they are wise, would most likely perceive the majority of humanity as a threat to itself survival, and begin taking action to ensure survival.

I wonder what action the robot would take?
User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Cory Patrick wrote:
Humanities chances of survival decrease to the extent that it comforts itself.
Perhaps we should go further into this word comfort because comfort covers a lot in terms of human behavior.

For instance: Humans drink alcohol and smoke marijuana, and I would consider these activities redundant comforts that perpetuate man’s pain.

But what about the necessary comforts?

For instance: Man needs to build himself a bed and a mattress and he needs to keep his food cold so a fridge is definitely a bonus.

My question is when have we gone too far with the negation of comforts?

Can one negate too much of the world? Does extremism have a limit?
User avatar
Cory Duchesne
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Cory Duchesne »

Cory Patrick wrote:
Humanities chances of survival decrease to the extent that it comforts itself.
Ryan responded:
Perhaps we should go further into this word comfort because comfort covers a lot in terms of human behavior.

For instance: Humans drink alcohol and smoke marijuana, and I would consider these activities redundant comforts that perpetuate man’s pain.

But what about the necessary comforts?

For instance: Man needs to build himself a bed and a mattress and he needs to keep his food cold so a fridge is definitely a bonus.

My question is when have we gone too far with the negation of comforts?

Can one negate too much of the world? Does extremism have a limit?
Yes, good point. I should have said - the security of a species wanes to the degree with which the animal needs to consume in order to survive.

That's why some of the oldest organisms on earth are microbes. They have endured many mass extinctions, and that is because their simplicity ensures their survival.

humanity has put a number of species into extinction, of the first ones to go are at the top of the food chain.

I had also said that:

Survival has become complicated to the degree that mans prefered inputs have become pleasurable.

Robots are not likely to be designed to need comfort, stimulation, elation.

Therefore, what is the point of having robots?

They would probably be designed to help man survive intelligently.

However, if the robots were designed by humans who only assumed that they were surviving intelligently, but were actually parasitic in the long term, then the robots would i gues also be parasitic and only speed up mans impending doom.

If the robots were designed by truly wise/enlightened human beings, then the robots exceptional foresight would probably eliminate the majority of mankind, or flee from mankind.

As for your question about what is the appropriate level of comfort, well....I'll think about it and get back to you.
User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Cory wrote:
As for your question about what is the appropriate level of comfort, well....I'll think about it and get back to you
I'd like to compare the capitalist and communist environments and relate that to comfort.

Overall, I’m thinking that the capitalist system has been quite beneficial to man especially if it is compared to the communist system.

The capitalist system produces a variety of products and services that are always available.

It is based on diverse interactions, eleborate distribution channels, quality of service and it is an open market system so therefore it is quite social.

However Communist societies are a controlled closed market where the government regulates all and the people's freedoms are restrained. Many Cubans die trying to flee to Miami, there are over 240 prisons in Cuba all filled with people who have publicly spoken out because of the lack of democracy.

There is generally a shortage of services and products in communism because of the poor organization, poor communication and interactions, lack of personal freedom, and the fact that no one is motivated to work.

When I traveled to Cuba, the poverty was shocking. There is nowhere to buy shoes or a toothbrush.

And if one travels to The USA, the excessive surplus/waste is atrocious.

Capitalists have too freedom in terms of goods and services and communism doesn’t have enough, there needs to be a middle-ground.

And If one negates the entire world one may wind up isolated without the basic essentials similar to a communist society.

I dont believe man deserves to be without the basic products and services necessary to secure a comfortable existence.

Capitalism is fruitful and if more of humanity matures psychologically the amount of goods and services should decrease, but this would increase the overall efficiency of the capitalist system.

Overall the west is more destructive, but the abundance here makes it fertile grounds for a weak minimal capitalism for an elite group of philosophers.
User avatar
Cory Duchesne
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Cory Duchesne »

CP, I just finished watching the latest episode of David Suzuki's 'Nature of Things', the episodes focus just so happened to be on Cuba, and I found the insights that David's show was propounding about cuba, painted a much more complicated and subtle interpretation.

From David's perspective, and from the perspective of many other well travelled and well educated people, Cuba is probably one of the most exceptional and promising of all countries in the world.

When you visited cuba, it was probably in the 90's.

Keep in mind that in 1989, the Soviet bloc collapsed, cutting cuba off from its main source of food.

The decade following this collapse was marked by an understandably extreme decline in resources.

However, unlike every other country that experiences a major depression - Castro maintained his promise to his people that health care and education would always be available to all children.

Before 1989, cuba was doing quite exceptional - not only establishing free health care and education for all its people, but establishing a biotechnology labratory and a stable community of scientists and doctors, distinguished in that they stood by holistic principles, acknowledged and practiced traditional medicinal techniques, yet were also exploring the frontiers of gene therapy, they developed a powerful medication for battling cancer and were knowledgable about and stocked in western medication, to provide when neccesary.

The years preceding 1989 could be regarded as a time of incubation in the womb - it was relatively peaceful, prosperous and the country was developing in a highly sophisticated way.

The cut from cubas main importer, the soviet bloc, was metephorical for dejection from the womb, and a cutting of the unbellical chord.

A traumatic and difficult time for a baby.

However, Cuba now seems to be learning to walk and talk.

Ever since they lost their main import of food, Cuba has undergone a drastic revolution.

By applying permaculture techniques, the country grows all of its own food now, and a great deal of it is grown right in the city using urban permaculture methods.

Many of the schools now have solar panels, some even powering computers.

Cuban universities produce so many doctors, scientists, and engineers that many are sent to other developing/underdeveloped countries to help out.

Westerners who (because of degrees in international development and/or what not) visited cuba were shocked at how educated and selfless many of the cubans were.

One fellow said that biologists, teachers, scientist, doctors, and engineers were a dime a dozen.

He was involved in a project with cuban biologist and environmental conservationists who cleaned 85 percent of the pollution out of a large body of water by introducing certain native plant species which cleaned out the pollutants.

Amazingly, all of the most educated people in cuba, live simply to work and serve, and get paid only enough to continue working. They are very passionate and undogmatic people.

Everyone in cuba right now is fed, medicated, educated, and free to think what they want to think.

They are not free to speak out against the system or against castro, and I dont think they should be - - the situation really isnt unfair.

Castro encourages his people to be creative and to think outside the box, as long as it is selfless and not self glorifying, hedonistic, and self-indulgent.

Interestingly enough, the biggest flaw I see in cuba is the degree of inequality that is caused by the tourism industry.

In a way it is demoralizing and deflating, in that it clouds and distracts cubans, the hedonistic sights of the tourists surely must provoke emotional, cloudy states of mind in the cubans.

However, tourism, as you know, is a huge source of income in cuba, and a neccessary part of cuba's development.

The capatalism of the west provides a source of income for cuba and this source of income is Kind of like cuba's corrupt parents.

Cuba, the child, knows its brighter than its self indulgent, foolish parents.

When Cuba is old enough, it may have complete independence and mastery.

However, children with a great deal of potential often become corrupted by their elders and peers, so it will be interesting to see how cuba matures.

So far its looking pretty good.

To cap things of, a quote by schopenhauer seems appropriate:

"The more nobler and perfect a thing is, the later and more slowly does it mature."

I would say that cuba is a good example of a more noble and perfect thing.

Whereas, a reptile, when it breaks out of its egg, is imediately moving quickly on all fours, eyes wide.

A more noble and perfect creature requires more care, thoughfulness, time and patience.

I am not condemning capatalist culture.

I am simply pointing out that just as America is degenerating, revolting against itself, and seemingly doing the death spiral -

Cuba is steadily rising.

It is an oversimplification to merely label a phenomenon like cuba as 'communism'.

The activity we see right now in cuba is indeed anomolous, unprecedented, and intelligent.
User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Cory wrote:
The activity we see right now in Cuba is indeed anomolous, unprecedented, and intelligent.
Allow me to eleborate on the negative aspects that were not shown on TV. Castro filters what is allowed to be shown of Cuba and he dictates to the people how they are to act in front of the camera.

Cory wrote:
When you visited cuba, it was probably in the 90's.
It was in 2000, not that much has changed.

It is still a highly controlled environment, people do not get to choose what their vocation will be, it is done for them.

The infrastructure/cars are decaying into nothing and this is a serious problem when I was there because the money from Tourism was the only money they had to use and it didn’t cover the costs of all the services needed.

They are solely dependent on capitalist revenues for all their monied advancements.

If you walk in downtown Cuba, you will be approached by hundreds of beggars that do not work because they have physical handicaps.

The military beats them and some are killed.

There prisons are overflowing, and thousands die every year trying to make it to the USA.

The ones that are educated hope to get into the tourist industry to make ends meet. Cubans look forward to a life of entertaining spoiled westerners.

Doctors flee the profession to work in hotels cleaning bathrooms because they make much more money.

Cuba is overpopulated, there is not enough property to go around.

It was one of the worst sensual spectacles I have ever witnessed.

When I came home, I was thankful to be back in Canada. Canada is utopia compared to Cuba, I would not want to live among a predominately black/Spanish community – too emotional.

But as you say perhaps things are getting better, but I still would not want to live there for any amount of money in the world.

A Democracy is much more orderly; organized; just; fair.

Cory wrote:
Castro encourages his people to be creative and to think outside the box, as long as it is selfless and not self glorifying, hedonistic, and self-indulgent.
He is a dictator, he rules by control. The people were brainwashed when I was there.

People were afraid to tell me around superiors that they'd love to live in Canada one day because they feared punishment.

Cory wrote:
They are not free to speak out against the system or against castro, and I dont think they should be - - the situation really isnt unfair.
It is totally unfair, you arent seeing the entire picture, Castro only filteres the information that he wants people to see, he wants people to believe that Cuba is a strong nation.

Cory wrote:
Everyone in cuba right now is fed, medicated, educated, and free to think what they want to think.
That is a lie, they are brainwashed, I have been in the schools.

Cory wrote:
Amazingly, all of the most educated people in cuba, live simply to work and serve, and get paid only enough to continue working. They are very passionate and undogmatic people.
You are only saying one side of the story that Cubans paint for the world, I’ve had conversations with passionate males who are terrified to have one differing opinion contrary to Castro because they fear their lives.

it took alot of probing to get a politcal conversation started with one of the males because there was so much fear.

Cory wrote:
Cuban universities produce so many doctors, scientists, and engineers that many are sent to other developing/underdeveloped countries to help out.
Only a selected elite are permitted to leave, if you attempt to leave without permission and are caught, you are imprisoned and sometimes killed as an example.

I’ve been to a Cuban hospital, but they had no supplies to help me. Luckily I only had a minor scrap.

Cory wrote:
Many of the schools now have solar panels, some even powering computers.
No one is allowed on the internet unless you are in Castro’s circle of elite.
User avatar
Cory Duchesne
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Cory Duchesne »

I don't think the environment of cuba is conductive for beggeting philosophers right now, however, most of the negative symptoms you described seem to exist in America, except many of americas problems are bigger and more deep rooted.

As for our situation in Canada, I would say it one of the best places in the world to be - except the weather sucks.

I think many young people in Canada have strong inclination to make the already weak-capatalism of canada, even weaker and more communist.

I think David had manipulatively pieced together an episode that encouraged Americans and Canadians to see the significance of and be inspired by the world that David was portraying Cuba to practically be.

The episode did point out the black market and begging aspect that existed in cuba.

One of the interviewers asked a cuban 'higher up'. "If you could stop the black market, would you?"

The cuban interviewee laughed and said; well, we can't stop it, and if we could, we wouldnt, because the black market and the begging/hustling make ends meet around here.

David Suzuki made it clear that Cuba wasnt utopia, but emphasized that it had the ingredients to be the closest thing.

Despite all you say is wrong with Cuba, I do think there is something significant about it.

I think its going through puberty right now, puberty is a volitile time. Castro is going to be dead soon. The reorganization of cuba following that may be a catalyst to a greater state of being. Or, the whole thing could go down hill and all of the earilier effort will have been done in vain. If so, then I will know for sure that the universe is indeed absolutely godless and unloving.
User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Cory Patrick wrote:
I think its going through puberty right now, puberty is a volitile time. Castro is going to be dead soon. The reorganization of cuba following that may be a catalyst to a greater state of being. Or, the whole thing could go down hill and all of the earilier effort will have been done in vain. If so, then I will know for sure that the universe is indeed absolutely godless and unloving.
I’m definitely optimistic, but also incredibly cynical based on what I observed. Castro would need to be replaced by someone not so controlling. There are no new memes in Cuba. Just Karl Marx, Christianity and some other scarce fragments of other religions.

The new leader would need to encourage the exposure to new types of memes. I have even considered taking Spanish translations of Jiddu Krishnamurti and distributing them underground if I ever have that sort of power because Cuba does have potential.

The young males are thirsty for change, but there is nothing to drink.

The problem is that Castro will probably be replaced by his brother or someone close in the family and they are all exact clones with the same limited mindset.

Their would need to be a civil upheaval by the people resulting in a democracy, this would be difficult however because the military is heavily armed and they side with Castro because he treats them much better than the civilians to ensure loyalty.

Overall, it is rather bleak, it would take a series of miracles for things to miraculously change.
User avatar
Cory Duchesne
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Cory Duchesne »

David Suzuki, what a character.

Perhaps, because he's getting desperate in his old age, he is resorting to lies in order to inspire and encourge the world to clean up its act.

He probably doesnt see the world turning around unless we radically begin working together in a sort of communisitic fashion, producing our own food and minimalizing imports.

So the image of cuba gives david hope, and so david gives the hopeful image to the people.

I wonder if Solway has had any dealings with suzuki above and beyond that disparaging letter he sent him.

I ask this because I would find it amusing to hear more about the Life and Times of the this bleeding heart preacher david Suzuki.
User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Cory Patrick wrote:
Yes you are correct, I also believe David Suzuki suffers a quiet desperation.
It seems all David sees are the green changes and this is enough to fuel his passion, however he misses the negativity in terms of psychology, but this is primary really.

The same thing is happening in China (communist), Google suffered heavy criticism because they altered their search engine and made a specialized version for the Chinese government to distribute to their people, the altered version will only allow citizens to search within Chinese generated web pages.

poor ethical move for google and they are suffering for it. All the good things they have done in the past have been erased in the people's eyes by this one bad business move.

it is almost like a net nanny, but not for porn. This sort of net nanny is done by the Chinese government to prevent the masses from discovering new memes and revolutionary ideas such as the superiority of democracy. It protects their power by keeping the people ignorant. However there are a minority of Chinese youth that are educated and are secretly rebelling.

However the might of the Chinese government would easily crush the poor students if they make too much of a fuss of what they know.

This is why superficial shows such as the Cobert report and the Daily show represent the superiority and potential of democracy/capitalism.

In the USA/Canada and others, you can criticize anyone you want in the government, you can read what you want and say what you want within reason, as long as it doesn’t threaten the lives of anyone.

Also I was thinking that the capitalist gears spit out hundreds of book publishers all in competition so one can purchase a wide diversity of memes whereas books are scarce in communist counties and they are actually confiscated by the government if they are too threatening.

The government burns the books of underground radicals.

And now with the most recent development of the internet, one can absorb and actually converse with other memes real-time and absorb many memes for free. Wikipedia has soul and heart.

You put any philsopher’s name into google and a summary of their entire life’s work is available to you.

Communist countries do not have this luxury, this knowledge database called the internet is an invaluable educational resource.

If this knowledge database was combined with A.I, it would be a great educational tool for children. Children love interaction and an A.I could play countless games and educate them all day long without becoming tired.

I remember when I used to peer tutor a down syndrome child in the neighborhood, the little fella would exhaust me after hours of discourse because he was quite relentless in his inquisitiveness.

At these moments when I was tired, I would turn on his robot 2XL that played cassette tapes and this little bugger was quite advanced in that he had clever ways to teach nature, animals, general science and mathematics. I was impressed by the heart and soul that went into him.

All these things came into existence through the capitalist gears, but don’t get me wrong a lot of nasty things have also been created.

I recently watched an interview with the CEO of Walmart on Charlie Rose and he stated that one of the companies biggest projects have been implementing sustainable changes within the company because he feels this is the most educated decision one can do.

Some of his changes are quite superficial and futile and overall Walmart is quite exploitative however the US companies are demonstrating a growing interest in sustainability and increased efficiency because it makes good business sense for them. The sustainability philosophy is spreading like of virus and it is now the ‘intelligent’ interest for ‘hip’ CEOs.
User avatar
Cory Duchesne
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Cory Duchesne »

Good post CP,

A few things to consider;
CP: However there are a minority of Chinese youth that are educated and are secretly rebelling.
A rebellion towards what end I wonder? My hunch is that the more controlling a government is towards its population, the more immature and unaware the peoples attempt at revolt/rebellion will be.

That’s what makes America and Canada an interesting dynamic. America and Canada, in Canada most notably – there has been a rebellion against rebellion.

American counterculture was a movement of rebellion that is now being criticized by a new leftist movement of rebellion. The new critique of counterculture is becoming so incisive, subtle, careful and intelligent, that it is stripping away just about every tool an aspiring revolutionary would normally use to derive a feeling that he is making a difference.

What your average western revolutionary is realizing is that, yeah, if everyone was as critical as this – well then the expression of humanity would kind of look communist, naturally and effortlessly.

The only way man will ever function as one whole in a marxist sort of way, is to see the neccesity of having: (and of course I think marx would disagree.......)

1) A zone, or zones of humanity experiencing the freedoms of unbridled capitalism and artistic freedom

2) Neighboring zones of humanity under the rule of much weaker forms of capitalism.

With this sort of foundation, a portion of humanity inevitably goes through a revolt and a questioning of values that is so subtle and complex that it creates a revolting population that insists on being more communist and minimal - rather than forced to be.

Rather than a forced or coerced communism, the high intelligence of the new counter-culture is simply the consequence of a humanity that was given the freedom to be as capitalist as they wanted, and thus free to revolt against the excessive freedom that is given. Thus, whatever revolts and rebellions that take place under such conditions will be much more complicated and aware. A population can only revolt so much against its unprecedented freedom.

Eventually rebels start to realize that doing whatever you want, and saying whatever you want - is not neccesarily freedom.

The most intelligent counterculture rebel of amercia in my opinon was scott nearing. Interestingly enough, he was accused of being a communist and was charged for sedition -

however, he was simply a man in favor of freedom of speach and action, and he intuited or had a premonition that the way most people were revolting against america would fail to actually defeat the enemy.

This is why superficial shows such as the Cobert report and the Daily show represent the superiority and potential of democracy/capitalism.
Shows like Cobert and Daily show represent the freedom achieved by the first revolt against western capatilism.

The irony is that the values of this very movement simply integrated itself into the capitalist system, making a much more subtle and deceptive reality to discern.

But a new movement of leftists have discerned the problem.

And thus, we’ve come up against a wall.

We’ve come to realize that injustice makes for great art and comedy, and great art and comedy make for great business.

At this point, Revolution and rebellion, when it is not supremely aware, ends up being food for capitalism.

Capatilism then goes through a mutation, becoming more complex and resistant.

The best form of revolution and rebellion is not profitable, and if everyone submitted to that final form of rebellion and revolution, well, most of us would be philosophers living like communists.
User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Cory Patrick wrote:
The best form of revolution and rebellion is not profitable, and if everyone submitted to that final form of rebellion and revolution, well, most of us would be philosophers living like communists.
Yes, you make a good point, perhaps there is a natural progression that humanity must move through to achieve that end.

For instance in China, the next rebellion will most likely involve a violent unaware overthrowing of the government, but a necessary and vital stage of their development.

Because before any sort of subtle counter-culture movements can happen there needs to be some sort of unrestrained capitalism with freedom of speech.

To allow the process to happen, the governments must stop controlling and allow human nature to function the way it does…

Allow it to go through the motions so to speak and eventually higher forms of rebellions will occur.

So the western world represents the highest order of progress in terms of civilization evolution…

However one question I’ve wondered is that if one country changes significantly, does this make it easier for surrounding countries to rebel in a highly intelligent way?

Moreover are lesser countries able to skip steps in the process if other countries influence them?

For instance many permaculturists have helped third world countries set up sustainable food systems, but the psychological teachings are lacking.

Is it the destiny of the enlightened to evetually travel and spread the complete package in areas that lack technological development (poor communication)?
millipodium

Post by millipodium »

Two hitlers stroking each other. Funny.
AlexSan
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:54 am

Those are not UG Krishnamurti's words

Post by AlexSan »

I wont comment the nonsenses that Ryan Rudolph said here, i just want to say that the cite from the start of the topic AIN'T FROM UG Krishnamurti. I was surprised to hear such stupid thing from UG so i did a little research. It seams that the paragraph is in fact from a book called "Science and UG" written by a certain "Dr. O.S. Reddy" in which he says to the world what he thinks he understood from UG's sayings. So please don't put that rubbish into UG's mouth.
User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: UG Krishnamurti: Genetic Degradation in Modern Civilization

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

AlexSan,

Have you ever wondered why you are so defensive over UG the man? Do you think that is healthy? Even though he was fairly wise, he still exhibited a certain degree of imperfection…

For instance: UG battled with an intense envy of Jiddu Krishnamurti for much of his life. Even when people spoke of some of Jiddu’s philosophy in his presence, he would get upset, and neurotically start attacking K, but he did it in a rather emotional manner, rather than a calm collected criticism. In some instances, UG lacked the subtlety of a sage, but I still believe he was wise in many ways.

Btw, what didn’t you agree with in my above posts, and why?
AlexSan
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:54 am

Re: UG Krishnamurti: Genetic Degradation in Modern Civilization

Post by AlexSan »

Oh no, i don't have a "crush" on UG, he can go to hell with all other masters for what i care. I just know he couldn't have said those things, he was smarter than that. Thats all, i don't wanna get into polemics.
Locked