GENIUS FORUMS

Is it ever morally the right choice to make? For instance: one's grief undesirably affects others (people he loves), so would it not be the only possible choice to make in order to fix things? He gets out (sleeps forever without dreaming) and at the same time makes things better for everyone in his life - they will no longer experience problems because of his wrongfully made choices. Example (this isn't about me, so feel free to post your thoughts) - I drink because my problems become too great to handle. The problems sometimes go away when drunk, sometimes they do not. My drinking and lifestyle may affect my family members in a very bad way. Now, if I cannot fix things for myself, then I might as well fix things for others. This seems like a good thing.

I'd like to read your thoughts pertaining to this matter: I believe that suicide is sometimes the only option available. What do you think?

The pattern I've seen with a few cases very close to me is that the suicidal person is already for a long while systematically killing what is living, what is worthwhile in a psychological sense, in himself or around him. That's a process that can run for years, decades even, even out of sight of people nearby. It's a matter of 'sawing off the branch one is sitting on'. In the final stages, the collapse is complete and a tragedy often hard to avoid. At that stage one can only be thankful if the murderous instinct, the death wish, only targets one person.

But it's never so contained of course. It will affect others, it will hurt and cause damage to the parts of oneself that live on in anyone who ever knew, ever met the victim, and anyone who is confronted with this sight of pointless death. So in that sense it will always remain a selfish act in essence, breaking out of prison by blowing up the whole complex. It's not liberation, for anyone. One was already living dead and remains dead. Nothing changed. There's not even a guarantee the suffering stops. It's as such better to keep seeking life, overcoming oneself.

You know, I'd really like to discuss this as soon as possible! Please!

The pattern I've seen with a few cases very close to me is that the suicidal person is already for a long while systematically killing what is living, what is worthwhile in a psychological sense, in himself or around him. That's a process that can run for years, decades even, even out of sight of people nearby. It's a matter of 'sawing off the branch one is sitting on'. In the final stages, the collapse is complete and a tragedy often hard to avoid. At that stage one can only be thankful if the murderous instinct, the death wish, only targets one person.

Then, by that logic it only follows that the person who's slowly killing everything he touches should end it at soon as possible... We have here to reasons for this: a) no more influence on others, and b) he'll suffer less.

Now we're getting somewhere! Thanks!

But it's never so contained of course. It will affect others, it will hurt and cause damage to the parts of oneself that live on in anyone who ever knew, ever met the victim, and anyone who is confronted with this sight of pointless death. So in that sense it will always remain a selfish act in essence, breaking out of prison by blowing up the whole complex. It's not liberation, for anyone. One was already living dead and remains dead. Nothing changed. There's not even a guarantee the suffering stops. It's as such better to keep seeking life, overcoming oneself.

Wouldn't it in some way be a relief for the loved ones?

No-one owns your life but you. If you want to kill yourself, that's your prerogative. However, there are seldom circumstances where this would be the only option for a person, or where it would be a genuinely rational choice to make. They may exist, but they are rare and would almost always involve terminal illness. But the bottom line is no-one has the right to demand that you keep living.

If you want to kill yourself, that's your prerogative.

Exactly, but this isn't about me.

But the bottom line is no-one has the right to demand that you keep living.

Good, that would just be selfish!

mystex wrote:

If you want to kill yourself, that's your prerogative.

Exactly, but this isn't about me.

I didn't think it was. I was using "you" generically.

But the bottom line is no-one has the right to demand that you keep living.

Good, that would just be selfish!

No-one has the right to say you're selfish, either. That's just selfish.

I'm constantly thinking about death. Simply because death is ultimately awesome.

*sigh* if it wasn't for the harm it might cause and the biological predisposition to avoid death, I'd already be dead.

Sadly, the harm it would cause is ultimately egotistical. The family it would cause harm to never talk to me unless they want something from me. They don't answer the phone if I call and they don't return my calls... unless they want something from me, or they happen to feel like talking to me.

One person talks to me for the sake of talking; my mother.

With that said I'm quite content to be dead or alive. Being alive is very similar to being dead, except I'm aware of it.

There are certain factors that will determine whether one picks suicide or not. Obviously, life is much more fruitful and full of opportunity.

If suicide were not so difficult and stigmatized a lot of people would do it.

The mass of men live lives of quiet desperation.

mystex,

Are you by chance the same person as the user DivineIntercourse?

Dan,

However, there are seldom circumstances where this would be the only option for a person, or where it would be a genuinely rational choice to make. They may exist, but they are rare and would almost always involve terminal illness.

IMO, emotional pain is just as real and hard to bear as physical pain. However, it is true that emotional illnesses / states are hardly ever terminal.

I think suicide would be a rational choice if I was in so much pain, physical or emotional, that I could not enjoy life, and my odds of ever snapping out of it were very low.

Animus,

I'm constantly thinking about death. Simply because death is ultimately awesome.

What is awesome about it?

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Shahrazad wrote:
Animus,

I'm constantly thinking about death. Simply because death is ultimately awesome.

What is awesome about it?

-

What's not awesome about it? What sucks about it? Once we're dead nothing matters.

Not that I have anything that really sticks in my craw. Yea, I've had a lot of downs in life, but consider myself lucky for learning what I have and not being taken in by too many delusions. I can get up and go to work every day with a smile, let stuff roll of my back and enjoy my life for the most part. I'm happy to live alone and don't even pursue relationships. I'm quite content to be honest, yet if I was dead I wouldn't even care about that. I would have no care in the world, not even wishing I was alive. I can't look back and say I made the wrong choice.

I'll put it this way, when I think about death, I think about what it is "like" to be dead, not the consequences of being dead because they are irrelevant to the state of "being" dead.

Animus,

I can get up and go to work every day with a smile, let stuff roll of my back and enjoy my life for the most part.

Right. You will lose all that with death.

I'm happy to live alone and don't even pursue relationships.

How old are you, if the question isn't too personal?

I'm quite content to be honest, yet if I was dead I wouldn't even care about that. I would have no care in the world, not even wishing I was alive.

True, but you also wouldn't have consciousness, and that sucks.

I can't look back and say I made the wrong choice.

You went through a suicidal phase?

I'll put it this way, when I think about death, I think about what it is "like" to be dead, not the consequences of being dead because they are irrelevant to the state of "being" dead.

The experience of being dead is not an experience at all. That is what's terrible about being dead: you don't even get to find out what is it like to be dead, because you have no consciousness.

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IMO, emotional pain is just as real and hard to bear as physical pain.

What if I told you this has nothing to do with emotional pain?

Dan, what do you mean? (your answer confuses me)

What if I told you this has nothing to do with emotional pain?

Then it is still possible for you to do a rational suicide. For example, if your quality of life is so low that you have no desire to continue. Your whole life seems pointless.

Your whole life seems pointless.

\
Why do you say that?

I'm thinking about my family. I have unintentionally caused them great suffering. Now, what if this great suffering can be at least minimized by my peril?

Why do you say that?

I was speaking in general -- it wasn't about you specifically.

Oh, so you think your life seems pointless? It's not.

My life is fine. I meant that if a person's quality of life is very low, their life seems pointless to them.

My question is this: let's say that the quality of one's life is as it should be - What would make one think about suicide? For instance, I've personally thought of suicide, so is there a rational explanation for it? For the thought or the procession of it... ? Originally, I posted that question, because I couldn't see a way out. However, now, I do. My issue is that I don't know what led me to have such thoughts... I felt like everything I thought was somehow wrong... I felt... it's hard to explain. I wanted to understand why this happened, so that it never happens again. Am I right for thinking in this way? Or should I just forget about it and focus on something else?

Is there any good in trying to understand these kinds of matters? Anyways, I feel that if I don't reach some sort of a resolution with this dilemma, then it'l be like a ghost that'll haunt me from time to time. Or worse, I'll have another one of those episodes, but I won't be so lucky next time. I'm sure that going through with it would be wrong. I don't know what to do. What do you think?

Ahh... Maybe this thread should be deleted. It's over. I don't feel as I did. Damn, Jason and his link! I think it made me stronger in the end. So, it has worked out. I think.

(I was actually holding a knife in my hand and imagining the next scenarios, btw)

I wonder: Am I wrong in that I want to understanding the suffering? I want to eliminate it through understanding it. Delusion -> understanding -> truth. Seriously, is there something wrong with this? If so, then this site has brought me unnecessary suffering. However, I suffer much less through the understanding. So... ??? Doesn't really make sense for me. Why can't anybody explain this to me? If I know, then I'll be forever happy... Suffering will no longer exist for me. In a sense, isn't this what enlightenment is all about? The sages have taught me this. It's logical. Hence, I understand. And suffer. If I'm wrong, then prove it to me! This is the only way - through logic and experience.

?

Where is the logic flawed? Has it deceived me? Ignorance - where?

You must show me the logical flaw.

Through forgetting, happiness / contentment is reached. This is what I call a useful delusion, but in the end it must be understood as such.

Ahhh... The bliss of ignorance fulfills me once more. Useful delusion? Good.

mystex,

My question is this: let's say that the quality of one's life is as it should be - What would make one think about suicide? For instance, I've personally thought of suicide, so is there a rational explanation for it? For the thought or the procession of it... ?

In most cases, suicide is not rational. You say there is no emotional suffering. But you later talk about suffering, so we know there's some of that. What is the source of your suffering?