GENIUS FORUMS

Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.

~ John Lennon

I was out around town helping my daughter gather up items for her project in college, and happened across two signs in two different parts of town. One sign was at a church and reflected, in words to the effect, there will be no recount when the roll is called up yonder. The second sign was at a local store selling merchandise for our local college football team which quoted John about the greatest commandment which is to love one another as I have loved you.

There has been much ado about the Islamic extremists who practice violence in the name of God. True Islam is said to be completely against violence. I cannot help but wonder the same about Christianity when I read these two signs. The church espouses threats in order to, perhaps, have you stop in just in case it’s true. How can this statement be reconciled with the greatest commandment of all?

I suppose I am beginning to see something that some of you have already seen, which is the contradiction in the holy hierarchy that leads people. How has this happened? In Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged she speaks of more a secular notion of how the “thinkers” allowed stupidity to take over their businesses, and yet, are the holy hierarchy just another Orren Boyle or James Taggart or Wesley Mouch? [I haven't finished the book yet, so apologies if things change]

Romans 13, in part, states

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

Are there not injustices done in government? Is government of God? What about legislation that is enacted that contradicts the things that are presumedly and assumedly God’s?

In Matthew 22

Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his talk. And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances.Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?" But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, "Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax." And they brought him a denarius.And Jesus said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said, "Caesar's." Then he said to them, "Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.

Paul, a Roman soldier before a Christian, would swear allegiance to the crown and would affectionately dictate that Christians should obey Rome. Was this because of what Christ said when he told Pilate that you have only the power that God has given you? So, we too, should be subject to the law? And yet, in the US:

The people of this State have the inherent, sole, and exclusive right of regulating the internal government and police thereof, and of altering or abolishing their Constitution and form of government whenever it may be necessary to their safety and happiness; but every such right shall be exercised in pursuance of law and consistently with the Constitution of the United States.

So it is that we, the people, have the “power” [tongue in cheek] to abolish the Constitution. So, hypothetically, if we decided to abolish the Constitution would we be in violation of our Christian duty to obey the law? A law that is supposed to have a separation of church and state?

I had heard on some television program that Jews did not believe in Hell. A question I posed in a different thread was if Jews did not believe in Hell and Jesus was Jew, why did he speak of one? Since that time, I began reading about what Jews actually do think of an afterlife, only to find out that it wasn’t a really big issue a long time ago. It was more important to do the right thing and follow their laws. They began to later unravel what their stand was on the afterlife, but it was through THEIR study of the religious texts and THEIR interpretation. Jesus Christ came along and radically changed their world, but was his message lost somewhere in the translation too? Has Christianity become the same beast that Judaism became at the time of Christ...all rules and missing the point?

It is a bit frightening, to say the least, to know that I have gone this long without thinking about the ramifications of this type of indoctrination. I will say that for about twenty years, I didn’t think much at all about any of it…as I just dropped away from the church and all things of that realm. Some people consider me a “smart” person, but at this point I feel very stupid, foolish and unwise.

passthrough wrote:

Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.

~ John Lennon

I was out around town helping my daughter gather up items for her project in college, and happened across two signs in two different parts of town. One sign was at a church and reflected, in words to the effect, there will be no recount when the roll is called up yonder. The second sign was at a local store selling merchandise for our local college football team which quoted John about the greatest commandment which is to love one another as I have loved you.

There has been much ado about the Islamic extremists who practice violence in the name of God. True Islam is said to be completely against violence.

Yes. But that's a complete lie.

I cannot help but wonder the same about Christianity when I read these two signs.

I suggest some study and getting your facts straight.

The church espouses threats in order to, perhaps, have you stop in just in case it’s true. How can this statement be reconciled with the greatest commandment of all?

I suppose I am beginning to see something that some of you have already seen, which is the contradiction in the holy hierarchy that leads people. How has this happened? In Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged she speaks of more a secular notion of how the “thinkers” allowed stupidity to take over their businesses, and yet, are the holy hierarchy just another Orren Boyle or James Taggart or Wesley Mouch? [I haven't finished the book yet, so apologies if things change]

Romans 13, in part, states

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

Are there not injustices done in government? Is government of God? What about legislation that is enacted that contradicts the things that are presumedly and assumedly God’s?

In Matthew 22

Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his talk. And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances.Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?" But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, "Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax." And they brought him a denarius.And Jesus said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said, "Caesar's." Then he said to them, "Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.

Paul, a Roman soldier before a Christian, would swear allegiance to the crown and would affectionately dictate that Christians should obey Rome. Was this because of what Christ said when he told Pilate that you have only the power that God has given you? So, we too, should be subject to the law? And yet, in the US:

The people of this State have the inherent, sole, and exclusive right of regulating the internal government and police thereof, and of altering or abolishing their Constitution and form of government whenever it may be necessary to their safety and happiness; but every such right shall be exercised in pursuance of law and consistently with the Constitution of the United States.

So it is that we, the people, have the “power” [tongue in cheek] to abolish the Constitution. So, hypothetically, if we decided to abolish the Constitution would we be in violation of our Christian duty to obey the law? A law that is supposed to have a separation of church and state?

I had heard on some television program that Jews did not believe in Hell. A question I posed in a different thread was if Jews did not believe in Hell and Jesus was Jew, why did he speak of one? Since that time, I began reading about what Jews actually do think of an afterlife, only to find out that it wasn’t a really big issue a long time ago. It was more important to do the right thing and follow their laws. They began to later unravel what their stand was on the afterlife, but it was through THEIR study of the religious texts and THEIR interpretation. Jesus Christ came along and radically changed their world, but was his message lost somewhere in the translation too? Has Christianity become the same beast that Judaism became at the time of Christ...all rules and missing the point?

It is a bit frightening, to say the least, to know that I have gone this long without thinking about the ramifications of this type of indoctrination. I will say that for about twenty years, I didn’t think much at all about any of it…as I just dropped away from the church and all things of that realm. Some people consider me a “smart” person, but at this point I feel very stupid, foolish and unwise.

Your thoughts are rambling and your conclusions generally tortured and invalid.

passthrough wrote: There has been much ado about the Islamic extremists who practice violence in the name of God. True Islam is said to be completely against violence.

Sorry, but no dice. The Quran and Hadiths are full of commands to violence...

While I apologize these aren't correctly labeled except with the page number of the book I pulled them from...

K 9:5 Then when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush.

Legal specialists laid down that the caliph had to raid enemy territory at least once a year in order to keep the idea of jihad alive (3)

Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war; do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. (11)

Oh ye men, do not wish for an encounter with the enemy. Pray to Allah to grant you security; when you encounter them, exercise patience, and you should know that Paradise is under the shadows of the swords. (12)

Allah laughs at two men. One of them kills the other, but each of them will enter the Garden; one fights in the way of Allah and is killed, the Allah turns (in forgiveness) to the killer, so he fights (in the way of Allah) and also becomes a martyr.” (22)

Your thoughts are rambling and your conclusions generally tortured and invalid.

I don't have time to explore this in depth, but you are right...that was my point. These ramblings are floating as truths out in the public. The average public does not study. The average public just listens to the ramblings and believes what they want depending on their understandings or lack thereof.

Those who think can easily be affected by these ramblings and then become non-thinkers but stupid because they buy into the nonsense without checking the facts.

There are groups of Muslims here in the states that have come out and said that Islam is against violence. Rory, you have provided quotations to prove your point, so why are their Muslims who come out in a public forum, ie television, newspapers, etc., and claim it is otherwise. The average public, if they want to believe the good in all people, will believe this statement and the others who distrust any type of person, will believe the worst. They will not pull out the Koran and study it to find the truth, they will believe what is out there.

Anyway, gotta go.

passthrough wrote:

Your thoughts are rambling and your conclusions generally tortured and invalid.

I don't have time to explore this in depth, but you are right...that was my point. These ramblings are floating as truths out in the public. The average public does not study. The average public just listens to the ramblings and believes what they want depending on their understandings or lack thereof.

Those who think can easily be affected by these ramblings and then become non-thinkers but stupid because they buy into the nonsense without checking the facts.

There are groups of Muslims here in the states that have come out and said that Islam is against violence. Rory, you have provided quotations to prove your point, so why are their Muslims who come out in a public forum, ie television, newspapers, etc., and claim it is otherwise. The average public, if they want to believe the good in all people, will believe this statement and the others who distrust any type of person, will believe the worst. They will not pull out the Koran and study it to find the truth, they will believe what is out there.

Anyway, gotta go.

The people that come out against violence in Islam are people placed in the west as part of the propaganda machine of Islam to create the false perception that Islam is peaceful. They are liars. It is never the leaders of the actual Muslim world that come out against it.

I thought more about what you were saying about some christians becoming to legalistic. In a sense, you're right. Many of the churches have been infected with a masonically created doctrine known as "dispensationalism", which encourages noahide tendencies in the flock.

passthrough wrote,

Some people consider me a “smart” person, but at this point I feel very stupid, foolish and unwise.

Be aware of how the pendulum swings during the time of your realignment. The equilibrium point is in the middle, but there is a natural tendency to take the apparent conversion you are undertaking a bit too far.

Everything that has happened has lead to this moment. Don't feel bad or guilty about perceptions of yourself before this time. The fact that you can come around and see more clearly is good for any person at any time. Don't harbor ill will against them or yourself. Not everything the Christians preach is in error. The civil ethics are similar to what Confucious taught and to this day have a profound affect on the Asian world. White Christians treat their neighbors with respect in the same way the Chinese do. It is the mysticism in contrast to reproduceable facts that is the error, and Chrisitians are certainly not the only humans guilty of this. For example, again in China, an over the counter, mummified tiger penis is still more expensive than it needs to be. And I am sure you needed to know that. :)

The people that come out against violence in Islam are people placed in the west as part of the propaganda machine of Islam to create the false perception that Islam is peaceful. They are liars. It is never the leaders of the actual Muslim world that come out against it.

I suppose the first question I need to ask, do you follow Islam? The answer would have some bearing on your point of view. If so, for what purpose do they espouse this false sense of peace?

I’m not sure that I was leaning toward the doctrine of dispensationalism in my missive. I should have set out the noted contradictions in premises to make them more logical and to the point. Then you could have argued them one at a time.

What I have begun to notice is the apparent contradictions in Christianity, all based on people’s opinions of what the truth really is. I am not too young to remember in the Catholic Church when they really didn’t encourage study of the Bible because they didn’t want people interpreting something in a different manner than what the church taught. But it isn’t just the Catholic Church that has moved off center. Somehow in the mix, the message got lost in the rhetoric.

Jesus Christ was asked by whose authority did he work his miracles and he replied questioning on whose authority did John the Baptist baptize. They could not answer him, so he did not feel the need to answer them. The only true authority is God, and we cannot fully comprehend the depth and breadth of that authority even in a lifetime of logic and reason…it will never be enough. So, I begin to wonder about the authority of the Church itself. If the leaders of the Church become icons, which they do, how they, who are human, cannot let it all go to their head.

Nothing is perfect, I know, but unless you are a historian, you would not even begin to question the opinions of the biblical writers based on the historical perspective and the events that shaped their thought….you would accept what the church told you – and people do, a lot of them. This notion of a recount is a frightening observation of threatening people into “doing good” when the truth of the matter is that if love is most important, “doing good” comes as a side effect.

Be aware of how the pendulum swings during the time of your realignment. The equilibrium point is in the middle, but there is a natural tendency to take the apparent conversion you are undertaking a bit too far.

In other words, I have ranted a bit. *smile* My apologies.

Everything that has happened has lead to this moment. Don't feel bad or guilty about perceptions of yourself before this time. The fact that you can come around and see more clearly is good for any person at any time. Don't harbor ill will against them or yourself.

I don’t really, it’s just when you stop to think how you wander through life with your brain unplugged…oh well.

Not everything the Christians preach is in error. The civil ethics are similar to what Confucious taught and to this day have a profound affect on the Asian world. White Christians treat their neighbors with respect in the same way the Chinese do. It is the mysticism in contrast to reproduceable facts that is the error, and Chrisitians are certainly not the only humans guilty of this. For example, again in China, an over the counter, mummified tiger penis is still more expensive than it needs to be. And I am sure you needed to know that. :)

Uhh, well, it is an interesting factoid – one I shan’t repeat, but nonetheless interesting. But Tharan, in that writing by St. John of the Cross, he strips it all down so simplistically that one cannot find a contradiction in what he says. I haven’t completely finished the work yet, but his logic is so incredible -he would roll in his grave if he heard me say this. However, it is a wonderful dissertation on what one should be [or perhaps not be?] We should all be transient floaters in this life, emulating Christ, with our eye on one authority, blindly following the fact that He is, everything else is superficial fluff. They don’t teach this at Church or maybe I wasn't listening closely enough. I am certain of one thing, that not too many others were either.

I realize that extremism is not the answer either - like waiting on the top of a building for the spaceship to pick us up. We all have a responsibility or purpose to serve in the ongoing future of humanity, but I only understand the end not the means to it.

Passthrough, they lie to defeat us. They're liars. Their religions condones lying to spread islam. They want us to put our guard down and allow them to flourish within our society, so they can mold it into an Islamist theocracy.

What is the end you see, passthrough, for which you cannot envision the means?

Podbrain wrote:

Passthrough, they lie to defeat us. They're liars. Their religions condones lying to spread islam.

Fuck, you're a paranoid cocksucker with one hell of a biased and deluded agenda.

Go suck Haggart's dick, you Christian faggot.

[edited for better impact]

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Millipodium: I take it you are Christian, and "anti" everything else? Do you belong to a particular denomination?

In answer to your question: The end is union with God, the means is beyond my current comprehension.

They want us to put our guard down and allow them to flourish within our society, so they can mold it into an Islamist theocracy.

Perfectly correct :)

Precisely the right strategy, only now stuffed up by inane suicide bombers on the same insane team.

passthrough wrote:

Millipodium: I take it you are Christian, and "anti" everything else?

Of course he is. Sticks out like dog’s balls.

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Leyla Shen wrote:Podbrain wrote:

Passthrough, they lie to defeat us. They're liars. Their religions condones lying to spread islam.

Fuck, you're a paranoid cocksucker with one hell of a biased and deluded agenda.

Go suck Haggart's dick, you Christian faggot.

[edited for better impact]

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Rough day, Leyla? I know you just come here to get your frustrations out. (But it's true what i said about islam)

One thing is for sure: Leyla is a fantastic editor!

Religion is a meme; it is of the nature of memes to propagate. Humanism and its variants are memes too. It's just a case of choosing your poison (or rejecting them all and being memeless).

Hmm, for some reason that post reminds meme...er, me....of the Roadrunner cartoon..

passthrough wrote:

The end is union with God, the means is beyond my current comprehension.

What do you think this union looks (figuratively speaking) like?

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