GENIUS FORUMS

How can I idealize 'knowing the truth' when I don't even know what the truth is?

Ideals can only lead you to find either a) your own self-projection, or b) that which is different from what you idealized.

I am programmed to wonder and inquire.
I am programed to fear being in error.
I am programmed to want the most superior form of happiness.
I am programmed to want what's best and I fear being inferrior.

This is the truth, and the truth is not an ideal.

Man and women both idealize. They idealize according to what they think is best.

That which seems best, is that which gives comfort.

Truth does not give comfort, nor does it give security.

Truth makes you feel pain, whereas idealization gives you pleasure.

When you achieve whatever it is you idealized, your achievement brings pain because your achievement had implications that you did not foresee.

These implications are encroaching and present themselves to you against your will.

Man either acknowledges these painful implications, and thus diffuses the power they have over him, or he escapes into another ideal thus digging his hole deeper.

Truth cannot be idealized, because you cannot idealize that which is not an ideal, you can only idealize the unreal.

Man and woman plan for a marriage, kids, house.....they plan for what seems like the very best. But what they idealized, was not the reality they got.

What they idealized, was not the truth.

And that is because you cannot idealize the truth, you can only idealize a mere idea, a fancy.

So your ideal is having no ideals. That itself is an ideal.

THus spake, millipodium, pointer-outerer of bullshit.

To observe with an rational eye that an ideal is not the truth in itself is not an ideal, but rather an intelligent observation which is something of a totally different quality then the divisive and limited nature of ideals.

Cory,

Ideals cause emotional attachment when the truth is completely replaced by them. But imagination, like an ideal, holds within it something of value -- when it's truth that we value.

cosmic_prostitute wrote:To observe with an rational eye that an ideal is not the truth in itself is not an ideal, but rather an intelligent observation which is something of a totally different quality then the divisive and limited nature of ideals.

But implied in this sort of thinking is "no ideals are worthy". One cannot live life with such continual negation. At some point, you have to decide how you're goig to live life, unless you want to be a continually negative, nihilistic, killjoy. Of course this type of thinking was foisted upon our society, specifically to fill it with self doubt, and negation.

As I told the hermits "apathy is just apathy".

Milli wrote:

But implied in this sort of thinking is "no ideals are worthy". One cannot live life with such continual negation. At some point, you have to decide how you're going to live life, unless you want to be a continually negative, nihilistic, killjoy. Of course this type of thinking was foisted upon our society, specifically to fill it with self doubt, and negation.

Suppose I am living minimally close to nature, it wasn’t an ideal that caused that change of lifestyle. It was caused by the fact that this body cannot tolerate working full time within industrial civilization the way it is functioning now.

The neon lights hurt the eyes, the computer strains the eyes, the back becomes sore, the memory is strained, etc and so forth. This is not an ideal, this is the truth acting on the body.

So I work part-time.

I can imagine what the future might look like but this is always a limited projection that can never capture the infinite complexity of how things will actually unfold.

I have made countless attempts to predict the future and activities of the imagination are feeble constructions compared to actuality of living the truth moment to moment with an uncertainty.

Man is terrified of uncertainty, he uses ideals to make himself feel secure, comfortable.

Ideals are the pacifier for the soul.

So the projections made with the imagination are always based on personal yearnings for security and the result of an insecure mind.

I take an infinitely complex world and attempt to reduce it down to one oversimplified idea or system of ideas and then I worship those ideas as my new god. I am basically worshipping myself, I am worshipping the limitation of my own intellect.

And then I try to impose this systems of ideas on others infecting them with my virus thinking that in fact I am liberating people with the truth, do you see how absurd this whole thing is sir?

Listen to the intelligence within the body and ideals are not needed. Facts are the only weapons one needs to orient and direction oneself.

The activity of Imagination is an activity of ego and the result of a restless mind that is incapable of accepting "what is".

The man that worships truth as a mere petty idea is not living the truth.

cosmic_prostitute wrote:Milli wrote:

But implied in this sort of thinking is "no ideals are worthy". One cannot live life with such continual negation. At some point, you have to decide how you're going to live life, unless you want to be a continually negative, nihilistic, killjoy. Of course this type of thinking was foisted upon our society, specifically to fill it with self doubt, and negation.

Suppose I am living minimally close to nature, it wasn’t an ideal that caused that change of lifestyle. It was caused by the fact that this body cannot tolerate working full time within industrial civilization the way it is functioning now.

The neon lights hurt the eyes, the computer strains the eyes, the back becomes sore, the memory is strained, etc and so forth. This is not an ideal, this is the truth acting on the body.

So I work part-time.

I can imagine what the future might look like but this is always a limited projection that can never capture the infinite complexity of how things will actually unfold.

I have made countless attempts to predict the future and activities of the imagination are feeble constructions compared to actuality of living the truth moment to moment with an uncertainty.

Man is terrified of uncertainty, he uses ideals to make himself feel secure, comfortable.

Ideals are the pacifier for the soul.

So the projections made with the imagination are always based on personal yearnings for security and the result of an insecure mind.

I take an infinitely complex world and attempt to reduce it down to one oversimplified idea or system of ideas and then I worship those ideas as my new god. I am basically worshipping myself, I am worshipping the limitation of my own intellect.

And then I try to impose this systems of ideas on others infecting them with my virus thinking that in fact I am liberating people with the truth, do you see how absurd this whole thing is sir?

Listen to the intelligence within the body and ideals are not needed. Facts are the only weapons one needs to orient and direction oneself.

The activity of Imagination is an activity of ego and the result of a restless mind that is incapable of accepting "what is".

The man that worships truth as a mere petty idea is not living the truth.

And all of this is the massive ideation that you worship.

(and i tend to agree with you)

Milli wrote:

And all of this is the massive ideation that you worship

On the contrary, I’m seeing things as they are factually, no ideals/imagination needed.

When you see a fact as a fact this is something entirely different then constructing an ideal using the imagination…

What is funny is that many of the people in this forum talk about the importance of seeing A=A.

This basically means seeing a fact as a fact…

However these same individuals will then go on to say that truth should be venerated as an idea, however in that act you are separated yourself from truth and in that separation A no longer equals A, but A is now something separate from A and this is where the whole messy business of delusion comes in you see.

this is a source of sensual gratification/security/power in valuing ideals and I dont see this any different than a christain who believes in Jesus as god.

Both are worshipping themselves.

Both are divding A from A.

cosmic_prostitute wrote:Milli wrote:

And all of this is the massive ideation that you worship

On the contrary, I’m seeing things as they are factually, no ideals/imagination needed.

When you see a fact as a fact this is something entirely different then constructing an ideal using the imagination…

What is funny is that many of the people in this forum talk about the importance of seeing A=A.

This basically means seeing a fact as a fact…

However these same individuals will then go on to say that truth should be venerated as an idea, however in that act you are separated yourself from truth and in that separation A no longer equals A, but A is now something separate from A and this is where the whole messy business of delusion comes in you see.

this is a source of sensual gratification/security/power in valuing ideals and I dont see this any different than a christain who believes in Jesus as god.

Both are worshipping themselves.

Both are divding A from A.

But seeing the world FACTUALLY is not satisfying on a human level. You are separating yourself from your humanity, and I don't believe you don't seek the mother. I think it's a case of sour grapes.

Ideals are insanity and vanity. They are born from dull conclusions and emotions.

If you have something deep and important to say - you will write it in whatever form your intellect is capable.

If you have great beauty and emotion to express, you will do it via painting, music, comedy/drama.

if you have a longing to express what you see as the truth, then you will do it by whatever means are available.

Idealistic people are shallow because they do not really have anything original of their own to do. An idealistic man is exploitative by nature, he tries to use other people in his life as a means to his own self aggrandization.

He is motivated by the ideal of being great, but he himself is shallow and will always be shallow as long as he doesnt experiment, question, feel deeply and comunicate his feelings and problems via whatever talent he happnes to have.

From the fact of ones negative feelings, like Steven said earlier, is imagination.

Imagination needs fodder, and one is involuntarily conditioned from childhood to imagine certain things.

Our dull, mediocre conditioning, program us to escape from the responsibility talking about and facing our ugly feelings, and instead of examing and facing up to the situation honestly, we suppress the truth of the situation and we escape into a future that we idealize.

Truth cannot be idealized, therefore all idealization leads to falseness.

The problem starts when when one idealizes writing a big novel, or writing a great poem, or being the great doctor, or making a great movie, or being a great leader or philosopher - WITHOUT honestly facing up to, exposing and going beyond the truth of what one truly is.

A great leader doesnt even try to be one, because he passionately and honestly communicates in the present moment. That is what he loves.

He also has burning questions. He doesnt idealize the answer.

That would be too stupid.

He investigates the facts honestly because he realizes thats what he has no choice to do.

Idealiztion has nothing to do with it.

I say that ones passion is not a choice, its just as involuntary as ones anxiety, discontent, fear, etc, etc...

If you like writing, painting, music, or thinking - then do it.

Dont idealize it. Idealizing something that you must begin doing right now is stupid.

Idealizing something that you don't even understand, but instead merely hope to understand, is even stupider.

You will live in hope and die in hope.

For the bad human being, understanding had been merely a hope, an ideal, and thus, one never understood.

Actually for most bad human beings, understanding was simply a fear and ones whole life was spent escaping into ideals.

Cory Patrick wrote:Ideals are insanity and vanity. They are born from dull conclusions and emotions.

If you have something deep and important to say - you will write it in whatever form your intellect is capable.

If you have great beauty and emotion to express, you will do it via painting, music, comedy/drama.

if you have a longing to express what you see as the truth, then you will do it by whatever means are available.

Idealistic people are shallow because they do not really have anything original of their own to do. An idealistic man is exploitative by nature, he tries to use other people in his life as a means to his own self aggrandization.

He is motivated by the ideal of being great, but he himself is shallow and will always be shallow as long as he doesnt experiment, question, feel deeply and comunicate his feelings and problems via whatever talent he happnes to have.

From the fact of ones negative feelings, like Steven said earlier, is imagination.

Imagination needs fodder, and one is involuntarily conditioned from childhood to imagine certain things.

Our dull, mediocre conditioning, program us to escape from the responsibility talking about and facing our ugly feelings, and instead of examing and facing up to the situation honestly, we suppress the truth of the situation and we escape into a future that we idealize.

Truth cannot be idealized, therefore all idealization leads to falseness.

The problem starts when when one idealizes writing a big novel, or writing a great poem, or being the great doctor, or making a great movie, or being a great leader or philosopher - WITHOUT honestly facing up to, exposing and going beyond the truth of what one truly is.

A great leader doesnt even try to be one, because he passionately and honestly communicates in the present moment. That is what he loves.

He also has burning questions. He doesnt idealize the answer.

That would be too stupid.

He investigates the facts honestly because he realizes thats what he has no choice to do.

Idealiztion has nothing to do with it.

I say that ones passion is not a choice, its just as involuntary as ones anxiety, discontent, fear, etc, etc...

If you like writing, painting, music, or thinking - then do it.

Dont idealize it. Idealizing something that you must begin doing right now is stupid.

Idealizing something that you don't even understand, but instead merely hope to understand, is even stupider.

You will live in hope and die in hope.

For the bad human being, understanding had been merely a hope, an ideal, and thus, one never understood.

Actually for most bad human beings, understanding was simply a fear and ones whole life was spent escaping into ideals.

You ideal is "no ideals". ANd you're totally elitist about it.

The way that is most rational is not an ideal, it is a fact.

Cory Patrick wrote:The way that is most rational is not an ideal, it is a fact.

How can "a way" be "a fact"?

Really you're promoting an approach to living life, an elitist approach that glorifies your own nihilism. Who abused you?

Cory,

You're forgetting, that whatever you set your mind to, you can achieve - with patience.

Milli wrote:

ANd you're totally elitist about it.

Actually, it is this sort of attitude and accusation that perfectly reveals the problem I want to address.

The fact is, there is an elite. Greater rationality lies within a minority of humanity.

That's not to say that most people do not have the potential to be wise/rational.

But with the human predicament as it is, I can say with confidence that most people are stupid, and a small minority are more wise/rational.

Your irrational attitude toward elitism perfectly illustrates the problem of having ideals.

You have the ideal of non-elitism in a world where elitism is a fact.

And thus you are in conflict inwardly and perhaps with the people in your life.

It's just like the ideal of peace.

The fact is, despite you idealize peace, you are at war with yourself and with others.

Taoist philosophy does not idealize against war - and thus taoist people are generally quite peaceful.

Islamic, confusianism, and christianity have all idealized peace.

Thus these islamic, confusianist, and christian types are often volitile, contradictory and violent.

Steven wrote:

You're forgetting, that whatever you set your mind to, you can achieve - with patience.

No, I disagree. You can't achieve anything you want. There are limits to acknowledge.

I can't float up in outer space in a pair of shorts with sun glasses.

I can't speak truthful words in order to seduce a beautiful girl who likes going to bars, dancing, mainstream rap music, and maintream movies.

I could go on endlessly.

Millipodium

How can "a way" be "a fact"?

Nature has all sorts of different ways. There are animals that fly, run, jump, crawl, slither, etc, etc.

Humans are born, they must eat food, have shelter, cooperate, feel pain, feel pleasure, get old, die.

These are the ways of nature.

They are not ideals.

As soon as "a fact" is recognized, what does it become?

Who says it is a fact?

The relativity (interconnectedness) of all things, would falsify any claim to the permanence of factual existence. There are certain Truths that are fundamental, which act as a basis for uncovering newer and newer truths. Facts only reaffirm our own subjectivity, masked in the illusion of objectivity.

Steven wrote:

The relativity (interconnectedness) of all things, would falsify any claim to the permanence of factual existence.

I am not making such claims.

The impermanence of existence is a fact.

Cory Patrick wrote:Steven wrote:

You're forgetting, that whatever you set your mind to, you can achieve - with patience.

No, I disagree. You can't achieve anything you want. There are limits to acknowledge.

I can't float up in outer space in a pair of shorts with sun glasses.

I can't speak truthful words in order to seduce a beautiful girl who likes going to bars, dancing, mainstream rap music, and maintream movies.

I could go on endlessly.

If you are content with using the word 'fact' as a means to support your self, then good. I think you dislike ideals because they divide you from your self - most likely because you're still idealistic, unsatisfied with the discord of semantics.

Cory Patrick wrote:Milli wrote:

ANd you're totally elitist about it.

Actually, it is this sort of attitude and accusation that perfectly reveals the problem I want to address.

The fact is, there is an elite. Greater rationality lies within a minority of humanity.

That's not to say that most people do not have the potential to be wise/rational.

But with the human predicament as it is, I can say with confidence that most people are stupid, and a small minority are more wise/rational.

Your irrational attitude toward elitism perfectly illustrates the problem of having ideals.

You have the ideal of non-elitism in a world where elitism is a fact.

And thus you are in conflict inwardly and perhaps with the people in your life.

It's just like of the ideal of peace.

The fact is, despite you idealize peace, you are at war with yourself and with others.

Taoist philosophy does not idealize against war - and thus taoist people are generally quite peaceful.

Islamic, confusianism, and christianity have all idealized peace.

And there such groups of peoples are volitile, contradictory and violent.

What you call elitism is just nihilism and contempt for others. You think you can end war if the world would just do what you say. Your nazi thinking is the worst tyranny of all. You're just an evil piece of shit, and you can quote me on that.

Milli wrote:

Your nazi thinking is the worst tyranny of all. You're just an evil piece of shit, and you can quote me on that.

At least I'm not the only nazi evil piece of shit in here. It feels good to be united with my fellow man...

cosmic_prostitute wrote:Milli wrote:

Your nazi thinking is the worst tyranny of all. You're just an evil piece of shit, and you can quote me on that.

At least I'm not the only nazi evil piece of shit in here. It feels good to be united with my fellow man...

Yes. identifying evil nazis p.o. esses is a hobby of mine.

You nihilist nazis seem to think explaining everything away is helpful in some way. It ain't. You can't live a life like this. How's this for some principles to live.

1. The universe loves you, and wants you to prosper.

2. There are people who will help you with support and positive assistance, and there are those who will not want you to prosper and who will hate you.

3. It's beneficial to figure out who's who in principle 2.

4. This one's a question: where does pointless nihilism fit in? I mean besides allowing you to feel superior to everyone else.

Are you nihilists friends or foes to humanity? You seem hate-filled.