GENIUS FORUMS

Nietzsche once wrote that 'wisdom was inspired by the smell of carrion...' that it always came after, in old age, with much reflection. He saw wisdom as an impediment to the overthrow of the old order of society. In the Geneology of Morals he asks us to consider the following: 'When Socretes - who was old and ugly - addressed the court of Greek noble warriors, who were all splendid specimens of youth and bravado, they looked at the old man and laughed, they found him amusing...' *

z

*I translated this from the original German, its as close as I could get.

well if Nietzsche said so it must be true.

its not like he talked figuratively...ever.

You are what your name depicts AVERAGE...I would say an average IDIOT....So, go fuck yourself! <- I don't consider this insulting, it's the language your type instinctively responds to e.g. 'well, if you say so, it must be true...'

To everyone else: what I'm looking for is a bit of philosophical reflection on what Nietzsche is saying, what do you think it means and why? Do you agree with it or not?

z

Yes....

Wisdom and knowledge is the product of much reflection and understanding, which is the product of having too much free time -- not fitting in, timidity perhaps?, or living as an ascetic, denying life.

"Psychology of metaphysics: the influence of timidity.

That which has been feared the most, the cause of the most powerful suffering (lust to rule, sex, etc.), has been treated by men with the greatest amount of hostility and eliminated from the "true" world. Thus they have eliminated the affects one by one --posited God as the antithesis of evil, that is, placed reality in the negation of the desires and affects (i.e., in nothingness)."

"The preoccupation with suffering on the part of metaphysicians--is quite naive. "Eternal bliss": psychological nonsense. Brave and creative men never consider pleasure and pain as ultimate values--they are epiphenomena: one must desire both if one is to achieve anything--. That they see the problem of pleasure and pain in the foreground reveals something weary and sick in metaphysicians and religious people. Even morality is so important to them only because they see in it an essential condition for the abolition of suffering."

Neil, I agree. I think Nietzsche's work should be assessed in relation to how he lived...like many philosophers, he had more than his share of timidity (lack of power) for which his 'philosophy' compensated: it is a psychological observation of the man himself. It is also obvious for anyone who has taken the time to read his works that this is what he came to realize more and more as his life drew to its tragic end...

This timidity afflicts many philosophers, who then turn it into a virtue and a strength out of which so many beautiful words spring like flowers from a dung heap! Beautiful!

zzz

zarathustra wrote:You are what your name depicts AVERAGE...I would say an average IDIOT....So, go fuck yourself! <- I don't consider this insulting, it's the language your type instinctively responds to e.g. 'well, if you say so, it must be true...'

To everyone else: what I'm looking for is a bit of philosophical reflection on what Nietzsche is saying, what do you think it means and why? Do you agree with it or not?

z

you speak with the wisdom of a 4000 year old man, who has inhaled the smell of carrion - truly you are an inspiration to us all.
You are what YOUR name depicts, oh Zarathustra!

And I suppose because you're a member of the 'Genius Forum' you're a f...ing genius...
z

zarathustra wrote:And I suppose because you're a member of the 'Genius Forum' you're a f...ing genius...
z

if you say so!


a
*I translated this from the original German, its as close as I could get.

Neil,

"The preoccupation with suffering on the part of metaphysicians--is quite naive. "Eternal bliss": psychological nonsense.

No… there is no thing with the least inkling of “life” that is not essentially preoccupied with sufferings, irrelevant of it being physical or defined as psychological. For the simple reason that either way it brings pain, which a self-centered/self-satisfying awareness naturally tries to avoid as all costs.

Of course, the “eternal bliss” part is a byproduct of human psychology itself, and I don’t think that metaphysicians claim it in a literal sense, because even for the supposedly enlightened ones for example, Neil or their likes will always remain a pain in their ass, that they necessarily would want to get rid of in the name of wisdom, for themselves and the world of course.

Brave and creative men never consider pleasure and pain as ultimate values--they are epiphenomena: one must desire both if one is to achieve anything--.

No, one must not desire them both, but accept them as facts of existence, for none can transcend consciousness and yet say that any of it is an illusion. As long as consciousness is, both are. If it is not the pain for an enlightened one of seeing fellow beings deluded, and his desire to rid them of it, then what the hell motivates him? Be it supposedly caused by God/Nature/Emptiness/Tao or whatever.

That they see the problem of pleasure and pain in the foreground reveals something weary and sick in metaphysicians and religious people. Even morality is so important to them only because they see in it an essential condition for the abolition of suffering."

Well, my sympathies to the one who expressed that; to see such pathetic conditions of metaphysicians and religious people must bring him much pain. Of course, I take it, his desire is that it be otherwise.

None are actually free of either pleasure or pain; one cannot be without the other. Understanding this does not eliminate “sufferings” however, irrelevant of how one defines it. Acceptance of this fact is the only way that could lessen the impact psychologically, not eliminate it all together. IMHO.

Sapius wrote:Neil,

"The preoccupation with suffering on the part of metaphysicians--is quite naive. "Eternal bliss": psychological nonsense.

No… there is no thing with the least inkling of “life” that is not essentially preoccupied with sufferings, irrelevant of it being physical or defined as psychological. For the simple reason that either way it brings pain, which a self-centered/self-satisfying awareness naturally tries to avoid as all costs.

You try to avoid suffering at all costs. Look where it got you guys -- denying life, calling everything an illusion, etc. Nietzsche sees it otherwise with great men.

Sapius wrote:Of course, the “eternal bliss” part is a byproduct of human psychology itself, and I don’t think that metaphysicians claim it in a literal sense, because even for the supposedly enlightened ones for example, Neil or their likes will always remain a pain in their ass, that they necessarily would want to get rid of in the name of wisdom, for themselves and the world of course.

Metaphysicians create the eternal bliss. They deny this world, all worldliness, and create their eternal bliss as an escapism.

Sapius wrote:

Brave and creative men never consider pleasure and pain as ultimate values--they are epiphenomena: one must desire both if one is to achieve anything--.

No, one must not desire them both, but accept them as facts of existence, for none can transcend consciousness and yet say that any of it is an illusion. As long as consciousness is, both are. If it is not the pain for an enlightened one of seeing fellow beings deluded, and his desire to rid them of it, then what the hell motivates him? Be it supposedly caused by God/Nature/Emptiness/Tao or whatever.

Yes, pain motivates the enlightened ones. Nietzsche is talking about brave and creative men, and he doesn't mean sages.

Sapius wrote:

That they see the problem of pleasure and pain in the foreground reveals something weary and sick in metaphysicians and religious people. Even morality is so important to them only because they see in it an essential condition for the abolition of suffering."

Well, my sympathies to the one who expressed that; to see such pathetic conditions of metaphysicians and religious people must bring him much pain. Of course, I take it, his desire is that it be otherwise.

...

Sapius wrote:None are actually free of either pleasure or pain; one cannot be without the other. Understanding this does not eliminate “sufferings” however, irrelevant of how one defines it. Acceptance of this fact is the only way that could lessen the impact psychologically, not eliminate it all together. IMHO.

Sapius, they aim to remove both at the same time whereas Nietzsche aims to affirm both at the same time.

Neil.

You try to avoid suffering at all costs. Look where it got you guys -- denying life, calling everything an illusion, etc. Nietzsche sees it otherwise with great men.

Hehehe… Screw Nietzsche.. I have never read him. I say that nothing is an illusion, not even a mirage; if that gives you the right picture. So who the hell are you addressing?

BTW, great men are essentially avoiding pain too, in their own way, as they see fit.

Metaphysicians create the eternal bliss. They deny this world, all worldliness, and create their eternal bliss as an escapism.

Tell me… why does that bother you? Do you think they really are in such a bliss considering the pain factor? Read the part where I mention that it only lessens the impact psychologically, not eliminate it all together.

Yes, pain motivates the enlightened ones. Nietzsche is talking about brave and creative men, and he doesn't mean sages.

So? Doesn’t pain motivate the brave and the creative? And you perhaps. And that was my point actually.

Are you by any means taking Sapius to mean a sage? Well, not me; many years ago I found a baby-naming site, and it said that the root word from which it came meant dirt as in dust; if adopted as this name variant it meant humility or humble, that’s how I stand.

Sapius, they aim to remove both at the same time whereas Nietzsche aims to affirm both at the same time.

Well, I just affirmed and acknowledged the reality of both without the blessings of Nietzsche. But I think you are mistaken that the forum hosts are actually “metaphysicians” of the kind you imagine. You seem to read too much into their lines rather than between them. ( I don’t know if that is the right expression though; my English it not that good. ) You don’t even seem to give them the benefit of doubt. It is not possible to actually know what is going on in another mind; I think you should agree.

May be you should loosen up a bit :D

z,

Nietzsche once wrote that 'wisdom was inspired by the smell of carrion...' that it always came after, in old age, with much reflection. He saw wisdom as an impediment to the overthrow of the old order of society. In the Geneology of Morals he asks us to consider the following: 'When Socretes - who was old and ugly - addressed the court of Greek noble warriors, who were all splendid specimens of youth and bravado, they looked at the old man and laughed, they found him amusing...'

Yet, when they were old, they agreed with him -- now that he was dead, it was safe to be wise.

And Plato wrote The Republic, a work of political fiction which has made it impossible for any democracy to ever arise since. All the mindless politicians are now busy trying to look like the lesser of two evils.

Socrates, like Jesus, Nietzsche, and many other philosophers, only had influence after he was a rotting corpse.

Good thinking Trev....Wisdom has its place. I suspect that Socrates was also a figment of Plato's imagination. In my other life I'm a scriptwriter - novelist - poet. have included part of an early synopsis of a novel I'm currently working on which you may or may not find interesting, it deals, in part, with the practical application of Plato's ideas/ideals on a future society.

Synopsis1 (Pt. 1) The Nihil

By the year 2200, the world was divided into three Zones of economic cooperation and development: Asiatica, Europa and the American Imperium. Each zone was governed by a Supreme Council of Guardians. Nation states, national chauvinism, laisse faire capitalism, ethnocentrism, and the divisions, resentment and conflict created by the old religious orders, like the orders themselves, had passed into history, a few of their remnants preserved in museums and libraries. Political, economic and cultural globalization were now realities. In Europa, the American Imperium, Australasia and New Zealand, the doctrines of multiculturalism, for better or worse, had brought about the complete assimilation of all ethnocentric cultures, and had not only succeeded in breeding into extinction the old Anglo-European cultures and aristocracies, but with them the indigenous peoples of the colonalized lands.

China had gradually established itself as the dominant political power in Asiatica, which included Australasia and New Zealand. Europa, roughly extended from Greenland to the Turkish boarder. The American Imperium, which covered the Middle East, including India, Pakistan, Africa and the Americas, was finally consolidated after the Great Middle Eastern Holocaust of 2095, when the then world epicentre of finance, OecuLas (Las Vegas) was struck with a crude nuclear devise, planted by Islamic terrorists, which destroyed its central business and casino districts and killed most of its inhabitants. This was followed by a short but deadly exchange in the Middle East involving tactical nuclear weapons, which all but destroyed Israel, Iraq, Iran and Pakistan. It was soon after this tragedy, that OecuBei (Beijing), with the rise of Asiatica, became the new epicentre of world finance and control. It was here, from 2100, where the great corporations traded their stocks and bonds, where political and economic representatives of the three Zones and their Guardian Elects – those officials elected from the ranks of the Guardians to represent their respective cities - would come to discuss, plan and implement future strategies.

By 2110, throughout the Zones, all private farming and agriculture had been absorbed into a few transglobal corporations, a development which had caused a shift of rural populations into the cities, leading to a sudden growth in the urban Outer-Sanctums of the great Cities. Within 15 years, all food production was totally the business of a handful of corporations. Vegetables, fruit and meat were now grown and genetically modified indoors, in large weather domes, where the four seasons were artificially produced and controlled as required. Advances in genetics had now enabled the companies to accelerate the life cycles of cattle, sheep and other livestock, who could be grown to full maturity, if required, in less than three months. This radical shift and transition in farming was due to two factors: advances in genetics and the effects global warming. From about 2100 global warming had made it very difficult, if not impossible, for anything to be commercially grown outdoors because of the unpredictability of weather patterns, to the point that the four seasons themselves had become increasingly unstable and at times almost indistinguishable from each other. Global warming also led to quite a dramatic rise in ocean levels and flooding. By 2075, over 2 million square miles of coastal lands worldwide were under water, or so water logged that habitation was no longer possible. Bangladesh, China, Indonesia, Egypt and the United States all experienced great inland population shifts. In the U.S. alone coastal flooding caused close to 50% of its population to migrate to the big inland cities. Soon, New York, New Orleans, Los Angeles and other costal cities were abandoned.

By 2110, the bulk of the world’s population was absorbed into 155 major cities collectively known as the Cities of the Sun. Most of these places were now at least two to four hundred square kilometres in size and were divided into Inner and Outer- Sanctums. The Outer containing the unemployed, labourers and tradesmen, the Inner, health professionals, bureaucrats, corporate managers and the Guardians. At the centre of each city was the Commercial Sanctum, a patchwork of skyscrapers, billboards and criss-crossing monorails. It was here the big corporations traded and competed.

Although from time to time, disagreements arose between the Zones, it was soon contained through carefully designed processes of debate and negotiation. In 2200, war was a thing of the past, and conflicts when they broke out, usually did so in the Outer-Sanctums, where they were allowed to run their course, unless they posed a threat to the Inner-Sanctums and the authority of the Guardians, in which case they would be ruthlessly put down by the EVP (Eternally Vigilant Police).

To govern such large cities, required a new political order, radically different from what was now referred to as the old pseudo-democracies of the 20th Century, which through the power of money and the disproportionate influence of certain ethnic groups, managed to perpetuate for over a century a form of archaic government called the two party system, a veiled dictatorship, for whom the citizenry were encouraged, and in some countries, forced to vote. The parties themselves advocating various shibboleths relating to freedom of speech, free elections, free trade, free choice and so on. In reality of course - as every student at the Alma Maters were now taught – nothing was further from the Truth. Public opinion being carefully managed, within set parameters, beyond which all debate was discouraged, ignored and in some cases restricted, particularly when certain historical truths were challenged. Up to about 2050, the two party system had itself become almost heredity, leading to the election of individuals from certain families, where political power was passed down from father to son and mother to daughter. The corruption and inequities of this system were now considered to be the root causes of the greatest wartime atrocities and environmental disasters in the history of the human race. In 2200, people thought it a great irony, that in light of these terrible facts, the populations of the time were duped into believing that real advances in human reason, freedom and tolerance had been achieved.

By 2100, a new political order had taken root and grown out of a spirit of cooperation, practicality, philosophical and scholarly endeavour. Inspiration for this system was found in the writings of perhaps the two greatest political theorists of all times: Plato and Confucius, to which was added the advantages of modern science, particularly eugenics. Both these thinkers rejected any notion of a plebiscite democracy, believing such a society was against the very laws of Nature itself. It was obvious to them that only good men were fit to rule and that their right to do so was divinely sanctioned, by what Confucius described as a mandate from heaven. Both Plato and Confucius looked forward to a time when in Plato’s words, the earth was ruled once and for all by virtuous and honourable men. Confucius called it The Golden Age. His formula: To illustrate illustrious virtue, to renovate the people, and to rest in the highest excellence…He also taught that the cultivation of the person was the root of everything. On these matters, his philosophy was almost identical to Plato, who imagined a city where men were cultivated for three classes, out of which were to be bred a virtuous and noble elite called the Guardians.

But how did this renovation of the people take place? How, in 2200, were the structures of the natural order of society arranged for its noble journey into the Golden Age? To answer these questions, the scholars and philosophers turned to Plato’s Republic for guidance and inspiration, in which he refers to what he calls the noble lie. Plato believed this lie had to be instilled into the consciousness and conscience of the people: that the division of the population into classes was not primarily due to privilege and education but to the gold, silver and iron put into their souls by God. Plato suggested that people be taught that different classes have different metals in their bloodstream, and therefore should not intermarry. He also taught that the leaders themselves should be persuaded of the truth of the noble lie, which would make its implementation all the more successful. In view of this, it’s easy to see how applied eugenics would add further substance to these ideas.

But of course, in this day and age, it would be difficult, if not impossible to indoctrinate the masses into believing that their blood contained particles of iron, silver and gold, which ultimately determined their class, from which their would be no escape. Such a notion would do nothing but fuel resentment. So, whilst the philosophers and scholars agreed that there was indeed a need for the noble lie, they realized that they would have to invent their own, and after some research discovered that the seeds for such a lie had been planted long ago during the time of the old pseudo-democracies and could be found in certain religious organizations and the philosophies of the old New Age movement. Searching the archives revealed that as far back as 1980 a church organization in England, known as the Sea of Faith, claimed not to believe in the literal truth of the Bible or the existence of God. One of its leaders, Stephen Mitchell, rector of Barrow upon Soar, was stated on record as saying: The Sea of Faith believes that immortality, life after death, Heaven and Hell, are necessarily human constructs…They rejected the truth of these things, yet at the same time believed it was necessary for the masses to believe in them, so as to maintain social order. It was also discovered from the same period, many modern religious thinkers such as Irving Kristol shared similar views. He wrote: There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. The notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a democratic fallacy. It doesn’t work.


But it was in the New Age movement itself that they found the framework required to convey their version of the noble lie. This movement insisted that people reject the differences in religions, including cultural, doctrinal, and ceremonial and concentrated only on their similarities i.e. belief in the truth, in God. Now this may seem contradictory, but it wasn’t. In fact it was upon this very idea that the Church of Contentment was founded - a perfect vehicle through which to convey the noble lie. And what was this lie? That ultimately, it was not what a human being did that determined their status or goodness, but how devoted they were to their community and to God. In the Outer Sanctums this message was preached week after week to the masses, until it had integrated itself into their very psyche.

The philosophers and scholars realized also for this particular truth to work its magic required one last component: that the masses did not suffer, that idol hands were kept busy and boredom kept at bay. To this end, the Guardians ensured that in the Outer Sanctums there was no poverty and no hunger; that even the vast majority (the unemployed) were comfortable and well provided with all the necessary modern conveniences, with access to a vast and influential entertainment industry, with its myths, divas and demigods. For the Guardians knew that poverty and boredom, if not snipped in the bud would be lethal, and if combined, pose a serious threat to the social order.

For over a century the social order of the Guardians prospered. It seemed that towards the end of the 23rd Century the whole of humanity stood poised on the periphery of the Golden Age. But at that very time, a spate of lethal, unprovoked and highly organized terrorist attacks suddenly occurred in many of the great cities. In the past it was relatively easy for the EVP to contain descent, but this time it was different and of great concern, because its recruits were being drawn, not only from the outer sanctums, but the inner sanctums - from the very ranks of the Guardians themselves! Not since the Islamic Terror had civilization faced such a threat. The terrorist group, from all accounts, unlike their predecessors, having one goal: the complete and utter destruction of the existing order. They called themselves the Nihil…

z

.
Z, what does 2200 say about space exploration?

It doesn't happen. Warp drive is as about as practical as time travel, in terms of real science...in my novel anyway. Mankind just doesn't evolve in that direction. This is a likely scenario, as space travel has not progressed since the moon landing...

z

zarathustra wrote:It doesn't happen. Warp drive is as about as practical as time travel, in terms of real science...in my novel anyway. Mankind just doesn't evolve in that direction. This is a likely scenario, as space travel has not progressed since the moon landing...

z

Neither has “political” system actually changed keeping human self-centered mentality in mind. Democracy or any other kind is but a whitewash, cover-up for corrupt souls, which still seems to persist in 2200 with noble lie intact.

Going to the moon was triggered by ego competition then, now, creating means to go elsewhere seems to be a necessity, unanimously.

so true...
z

zarathustra wrote:Nietzsche once wrote that 'wisdom was inspired by the smell of carrion...'

Hence the quote, "I stink, therefore I am"!

zarathustra,

Nietzsche once wrote that 'wisdom was inspired by the smell of carrion...' that it always came after, in old age, with much reflection. He saw wisdom as an impediment to the overthrow of the old order of society.

LOL-I suppose he was well acquainted with the john!

Wasn't that Desfarte!

Dahh....
z