GENIUS FORUMS

Dishonest, inattentive, illiterate...that's enough!

He is saying that A = A. What's the problem with that?

No, he's made some strange claims that deserve examining


He just accused me of mis-quoting him. I'll admit, I edited his quote just to make it simpler. It was a mistake to do that.

Here is what he really said

Consciousness is the sense of existing. The dawning of that sense is the birth of ego, the 'inner', the subjective state.

Beebuddy, can you tell me the significant difference between what I said he said, and what he really said?

Here is the misquote:

Kow: Consciousness is the the dawning of the sense of existing, and this is the birth of ego, the 'inner', the subjective state.

here is the real quote:

Consciousness is the sense of existing. The dawning of that sense is the birth of ego, the 'inner', the subjective state.

Any readers out there care to tell me what the difference is?

Sue Hindmarsh wrote:Kowtaaia wrote:

The subjective state is the reality of thought. Thought is consciousness.

What do you mean, "The subjective state is the reality of thought"? Are you saying that there isn't an 'objective state'?

The subjective state, the "behind the eyes" reality can be objective according to conditioning, but the true objective state is the absense of the subjective (psychological) phenomenon.

Cory Duchesne wrote:Here is the misquote:

Kow: Consciousness is the the dawning of the sense of existing, and this is the birth of ego, the 'inner', the subjective state.

here is the real quote:

Consciousness is the sense of existing. The dawning of that sense is the birth of ego, the 'inner', the subjective state.

Any readers out there care to tell me what the difference is?

This is a mistake. Don't go down this road. You misquoted him and you already admitted you shouldn't have. Stick to your admission or you'll lose all credibility trying to defend yourself.

We get back on topic or I'm done.

P.S. Don't bother trying to pretend you aren't trying to defend yourself. We won't go there together.

Back on topic or it's over.

Sue,

Cory: Isnt it 'thought' that tells me that there is a heaven to go to when I die?

Sue: What does this mean?

You mean, what am I getting at? What's my point?

My point is that Kow is trying to explain why he didnt have any delusions of immortality as a child, and he says it is because:

kow: "The birth of ego(kow) was completely conscious." means that the dawning of that self awareness happened during wakefulness and was directly perceived. It means that you remember being born.

Is it just me or is this just a mess?

Basically, it seems like kow is saying he didnt have any interest in immortality as a child because he remembered being born.

Too bad he can't just get to the point and say what he means.

He seems to enjoy living out the pompous fantasy of enigmatic mysifier

Kow: The subjective state, the "behind the eyes" reality can be objective according to conditioning, but the true objective state is the absense of the subjective (psychological) phenomenon.

What's the difference between a subjective state, and being conditioned, kow?

Are you saying the true objective state is the abence of 'thought'?

Here's Kow describing his early childhood:

kow: the birth of ego(kow) was completely conscious. So, there was never any delusion with regard to personal reality.

I tried to ask him if he was born enlightened, but he won't directly answer.

Cory,

You are not able to pay attention to what is right in front of your face. Your reading and comprehension skills are sorely lacking. You falsified a quote. You're too stupid to apologize. You are history.

I do hope you people are enjoying these inane pissing contests.

Dan wrote,

I do hope you people are enjoying these inane pissing contests.

Well, that's not the kind of support I was looking for, but its good enough - just a confirmation that the exchange with kow was insane.

and he who fights with monsters.......

Kowtaaia wrote:

Kowtaaia: The subjective state is the reality of thought. Thought is consciousness.

Sue: What do you mean, "The subjective state is the reality of thought"? Are you saying that there isn't an 'objective state'?

The subjective state, the "behind the eyes" reality

So far you’ve given two qualities to your “subjective state”: “reality of thought” and “behind the eyes reality” – but neither explains what this ‘state’ is. Would you mind having another shot at it?

can be objective according to conditioning,

Could you also explain the relationship between the ‘subjective’ and ‘objective’, along with what you mean by “according to conditioning”.

but the true objective state is the absense of the subjective (psychological) phenomenon.

What is this “true objective state” and how does it benefit from the “absence of the subjective”?

-
Sue

Cory wrote:

Cory: Isnt it 'thought' that tells me that there is a heaven to go to when I die?

Sue: What does this mean?

You mean, what am I getting at? What's my point?

Yes.

My point is that Kow is trying to explain why he didnt have any delusions of immortality as a child, and he says it is because: kow: "The birth of ego(kow) was completely conscious." means that the dawning of that self awareness happened during wakefulness and was directly perceived. It means that you remember being born.

Is it just me or is this just a mess?

Basically, it seems like kow is saying he didnt have any interest in immortality as a child because he remembered being born.

Too bad he can't just get to the point and say what he means.

He seems to enjoy living out the pompous fantasy of enigmatic mysifier

Regardless of Kowtaaia’s creative writing skills, the question I asked could still be answered by you. So – when you wrote this sentence –

“Isnt it 'thought' that tells me that there is a heaven to go to when I die?”

What do you mean by “‘thought’ that tells”?

-
Sue

Sue wrote:

Regardless of Kowtaaia’s creative writing skills, the question I asked could still be answered by you. So – when you wrote this sentence –

“Isnt it 'thought' that tells me that there is a heaven to go to when I die?”

What do you mean by “‘thought’ that tells”?

Well, if the individual knows he is going to heaven, to an afterlife, isnt it thought that informs?

For instance, I am an aglomeration of thoughts(among other things) and this bundle of thought informs itself. It all begins when I am an infant and am told that the outside agent is 'mommy' and the agent held by mother is 'me', 'cory'.

So the thought 'me' is dependant upon the thought of 'mommy' or 'daddy'.

As I grow up ("I" of which is essentially thought), thought tells itself many things: thought tells itself that Babies grow in mommy's belly when mommy's prays to god asking for one, thought tells itself that there are cookies in a certain cupboard, thought tells itself that the little apendage between Cory's legs is 'a bug' and boys have a bug and girls dont, thoughts tells itself that little cory is a male, thought tells itself that cory is 5years old, thought tells itself that the tooth fairy is coming, and thought tells itself that there is a heaven.

etc, etc.

Cory Duchesne wrote:

Regardless of Kowtaaia’s creative writing skills, the question I asked could still be answered by you. So – when you wrote this sentence –

“Isnt it 'thought' that tells me that there is a heaven to go to when I die?”

What do you mean by “‘thought’ that tells”?

Well, if the individual knows he is going to heaven, to an afterlife, isnt it thought that informs?

For instance, I am an aglomeration of thoughts(among other things) and this bundle of thought informs itself. It all begins when I am an infant and am told that the outside agent is 'mommy' and the agent held by mother is 'me', 'cory'.

So the thought 'me' is dependant upon the thought of 'mommy' or 'daddy'.

As I grow up ("I' of which is essentially thought), thought tells itself many things: thought tells itself that Baby's grow in mommy's belly when mommy's prays to god asking for one, thought tells itself that there are cookies in a certain cupboard, thought tells itself that the little apendage between Cory's legs is 'a bug' and boys have a bug and girls dont, thoughts tells itself that little cory is a male, thought tells itself that cory is 5years old, thought tells itself that the tooth fairy is coming, and thought tells itself that there is a heaven.

etc, etc.

"It puts the lotion on it's skin!"

Sue Hindmarsh wrote: Kowtaaia wrote:

Kowtaaia: The subjective state is the reality of thought. Thought is consciousness.

Sue: What do you mean, "The subjective state is the reality of thought"? Are you saying that there isn't an 'objective state'?

The subjective state, the "behind the eyes" reality

So far you’ve given two qualities to your “subjective state”: “reality of thought” and “behind the eyes reality” – but neither explains what this ‘state’ is. Would you mind having another shot at it?

'What' can be endless. :) It is the psychological phenomenon. "What is that?" you say! :) That is what you are.

That responds to your second request, also, unless you don't realized that you are conditioned. Thought is always conditioned.

Sue Hindmarsh wrote:

What is this “true objective state” and how does it benefit from the “absence of the subjective”?

The word 'benifit' doesn't apply. The true objective state is what Buddhists call 'Nibbana', the unconditioned.

the little apendage between Cory's legs is 'a bug' and boys have a bug and girls dont

Cory,
Your parents told you that was a bug? No wonder you have such a strong opinion about organic gardening.

Dan Rowden wrote:I do hope you people are enjoying these inane pissing contests.

Fabricating a quote is over the line. Only a moron would disagree! :)

kowtaaia,

If thought is conditioned, how can Nirvana be unconditioned?

Steven,

Nibbana is the absence of mentation.

Fabricating a quote is over the line. Only a moron would disagree! :)

Get over it kow. I wasnt intentionally trying to change the meaning of the sentence.

Maybe you care to explain to us what that sentence meant?

Master Hakuin's Chant in Praise of Zazen

From the beginning all beings are Buddha.
Like water and ice, without water no ice,
Outside us no Buddhas.
How near the truth, yet how far we seek,
Like one in water crying "I thirst".
Like a child of rich birth
wand'ring poor on this earth,
we endlessly circle the six worlds.
The cause of our sorrow is ego delusion.
From dark path to dark path we've wandered in darkness,
How can we be free from the wheel of samsara?
The gateway to freedom is zazen samadhi,
beyond exultation, beyond all our praises,
the pure Mahayana.
Observing the precepts, repentance and giving,
the countless good deeds and the way of right living
all come from zazen.
Thus one true samadhi extinguishes evils;
it purified karma, dissolving obstructions.
Then where are the dark paths to lead us astray?
The pure lotus land is not far away.
Hearing this truth, heart humble and grateful,
to praise and embrace it, to practice its wisdom,
brings unending blessings, brings mountains of merit.

But if we turn inward and prove our True-nature,
that True-self is no-self,
our own Self is no-self,
we go beyond ego and past clever words.
Then the gate to the oneness of cause and effect is thrown open.
Not two and not three, straight ahead runs the Way.
Our form now being no-form,
in coming and going we never leave home.
Our thought now being no-thought,
our dancing and songs are the voice of the Dharma.
How vast is the heaven of boundless samadhi!
How bright and transparent the moonlight of wisdom!
What it there outside us, what it there we lack?
Nirvana is openly shown to our eyes.
This earth where we stand is the pure lotus land,
And this very body, the body of Buddha.

Manjusri asked, "World-Honored One, what is the state of the unconditioned?"

The Buddha said, "The absence of thought is the state of the unconditioned."

here it is:

kow: Consciousness is the sense of existing. The dawning of that sense is the birth of ego, the 'inner', the subjective state.

So a sense of existing can be without an inner subjective state?

That's what the sentence implies....