Never will you be wise or enlightened

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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David Quinn
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by David Quinn »

average wrote:
David Quinn wrote: Like a lot of people, you are confusing enlightenment (consciousness of true nature) with true nature itself. It is true that eliminating delusion is irrelevant to our true nature, as our true nature always shines and can never be destroyed by anything. But in regards to becoming conscious of our true nature, it is an entirely different story. Here, eliminating the delusions which obscure our vision is critical.

Enlightenment is indeed transient, but still infinitely important to me.
You are confusing Enlightenment, which is our true nature, with a transient mental state that has nothing to do with it or ourselves.

You can't grasp it mentally, or physically, because you aren't any of those.
Okay, now we're just having a semantic debate. What you call "Enlightenment" is what I call "true nature". What I call "enlightenment" (i.e. consciousness of true nature) is something you don't want to acknowledge, or even think about.

But this doesn't stop people from creating their own problems and delusions about themselves, and Enlightenment....they create problems where there really are none.
The very fact that almost everyone in this world is unconscious of their true nature is a very real problem and can't be swept under the carpet by pretending it doesn't.

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average
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by average »

David Quinn wrote:
The very fact that almost everyone in this world is unconscious of their true nature is a very real problem and can't be swept under the carpet by pretending it doesn't.

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yet, fundamentally, there is no problem, because they are no different than those who are conscious of their true nature.
TheSourceCode

Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by TheSourceCode »

average,
Never will you be wise or enlightened
Since you put it in this way, then you're right... You will never be wise or enlightened. Another thing, we're all equal, therefore no one has an advantage over anybody else, right? Does age matter, educational level, DNA, personal experiences... If we thought it wasn't possible, then we wouldn't question and if we wouldn't question we wouldn't exist.

It's all about believing, attempting, advancing and ultimately getting closer to the goal: perfection or whatever.
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maestro
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by maestro »

David Quinn wrote: The very fact that almost everyone in this world is unconscious of their true nature is a very real problem and can't be swept under the carpet by pretending it doesn't.
yet, fundamentally, there is no problem, because they are no different than those who are conscious of their true nature.
Yes fundamentally there is no difference between having eyes or not. I guess to average it would not matter one whit if some psychopath gouges out his eyes tomorrow.
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average
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by average »

maestro wrote:
David Quinn wrote: The very fact that almost everyone in this world is unconscious of their true nature is a very real problem and can't be swept under the carpet by pretending it doesn't.
yet, fundamentally, there is no problem, because they are no different than those who are conscious of their true nature.
Yes fundamentally there is no difference between having eyes or not. I guess to average it would not matter one whit if some psychopath gouges out his eyes tomorrow.

yep
Steven Coyle

Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by Steven Coyle »

TheSourceCode,
Another thing, we're all equal, therefore no one has an advantage over anybody else, right? Does age matter, educational level, DNA, personal experiences... If we thought it wasn't possible, then we wouldn't question and if we wouldn't question we wouldn't exist.

One's karma, which includes the list of qualities you list above, determines a person's likelihood for attaining spiritual enlightenment. All deserve equality, but all were not created equally - diversity requires it.
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Nick
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by Nick »

average wrote:
David Quinn wrote:The very fact that almost everyone in this world is unconscious of their true nature is a very real problem and can't be swept under the carpet by pretending it doesn't.
yet, fundamentally, there is no problem, because they are no different than those who are conscious of their true nature.
Average, do you realize how you contradict yourself here, and in nearly every single statement you make? You say there is no difference between those who are conscious of their true nature (and those who are unconscious of it), yet you are some how able to describe them as two distinct kinds of people, which means you are in fact admitting there is a difference. It's like you are trying to force yourself into the unconscious position of the Totality and observe Reality form there, which is impossible. You are afraid of consciousness, much like the rest of humanity.
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average
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by average »

Nick Treklis wrote:
average wrote:
David Quinn wrote:The very fact that almost everyone in this world is unconscious of their true nature is a very real problem and can't be swept under the carpet by pretending it doesn't.
yet, fundamentally, there is no problem, because they are no different than those who are conscious of their true nature.
Average, do you realize how you contradict yourself here, and in nearly every single statement you make? You say there is no difference between those who are conscious of their true nature (and those who are unconscious of it), yet you are some how able to describe them as two distinct kinds of people, which means you are in fact admitting there is a difference. It's like you are trying to force yourself into the unconscious position of the Totality and observe Reality form there, which is impossible. You are afraid of consciousness, much like the rest of humanity.

I said on a fundamental level they are the same, because they are.

The differences exist on a relative level...
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by Nick »

Your posts seem to go beyond pointing out the emptiness of things, which others and myself understand. You come off as trying to get people to stop making distinctions in a practical manner, something necessary to point the mind towards Truth.
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average
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by average »

Nick Treklis wrote:Your posts seem to go beyond pointing out the emptiness of things, which others and myself understand. You come off as trying to get people to stop making distinctions in a practical manner, something necessary to point the mind towards Truth.

Ok.
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by Nick »

So are you just trying to confuse people then?
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by average »

Nick Treklis wrote:So are you just trying to confuse people then?

No.
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Nick
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by Nick »

Then what are you here for?
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average
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by average »

Nick Treklis wrote:Then what are you here for?

to discuss stuff that interests me.
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by Nick »

Judging by your opening post in this thread it's obvious you want more than to just discuss stuff, you are also trying to teach people something. So what are you trying to teach people when you tell them they will never be wise or enlightened?
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by average »

Nick Treklis wrote:Judging by your opening post in this thread it's obvious you want more than to just discuss stuff, you are also trying to teach people something. So what are you trying to teach people when you tell them they will never be wise or enlightened?
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I am only here to learn and chat

I have nothing to teach
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Nick
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by Nick »

average wrote:I am only here to learn and chat, I just use different methods
What have you learned thus far? What is the purpose of your methods?
average wrote:I have nothing to teach
It certainly appears that way, but it hasn't stopped you from trying. So I'll ask again, what are you trying to teach people when you tell them they will never be wise or enlightened?
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average
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by average »

Nick Treklis wrote:
average wrote:I am only here to learn and chat, I just use different methods
What have you learned thus far? What is the purpose of your methods?
average wrote:I have nothing to teach
It certainly appears that way, but it hasn't stopped you from trying. So I'll ask again, what are you trying to teach people when you tell them they will never be wise or enlightened?


You will never be wise or deluded, because to think you are either of those things, is to commit misidentification on a fundamental level.

When people think they are wise, they identify with the mind.
When people think they are pretty, they identify with the body.

But the mind and body are already gone, they have already changed without your consent.

So what will you do? What can you do?
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by Nick »

average wrote:You will never be wise or deluded, because to think you are either of those things, is to commit misidentification on a fundamental level.
You can't talk about individuals, and then say they will never be wise or deluded. You are automatically speaking dualistically as soon as you start talking about an individual, but then you try to describe them non-dualistically. You must either talk about individuals dualistically or don't talk about individuals or any finite thing at all. You can't have it both ways.
average wrote:When people think they are wise, they identify with the mind.
Not at all. They are just defining themselves as what they are for practical purposes.
average wrote:When people think they are pretty, they identify with the body.
This is a very superficial comparison. It's indicitave of a superficial understanding of what it truly means to be wise.
average wrote:But the mind and body are already gone, they have already changed without your consent.
The mind and body, along with everything else is what we define it to be, whether they are coming, going, or changing is only a matter of perspective.
average wrote:So what will you do? What can you do?
Do about what?
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by average »

Thanks for the info, I can learn a lot from you.
Sapius
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by Sapius »

David to average: Okay, now we're just having a semantic debate. What you call "Enlightenment" is what I call "true nature". What I call "enlightenment" (i.e. consciousness of true nature) is something you don't want to acknowledge, or even think about.
No, average is beyond the dualistic realm as in actually acknowledging or denying anything at all, or identifying with any dualistic mental projections, making your objections merely your own dualistic mental projections.

And what’s really wrong with one identifying ones Self in a non-dualistic sense rather than a dualistic one? Is that so hard to imagine? Average is pointing to the moon without really indulging in the nitpicking over the finger. If one cannot comprehend that, then that points to a lack of understanding, or mental blocks, or Ego perhaps; similar to that ‘mine is bigger than yours’ thing, and average does not actually indulge in that because that holds no inherent meaning.

It’s simply, carry water chop wood, without necessarily acknowledging or denying or even identifying with any particular thing at all. In other words, it’s simply God’s will; hence what exactly does or can an individual really do except whatever happens, fundamentally speaking?

BTW, that’s a God’s will driven point, not average’s point. If one thinks average is saying something, then that’s his problem.

That’s how I comprehend it.
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TheSourceCode

Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by TheSourceCode »

Steven,
One's karma, which includes the list of qualities you list above, determines a person's likelihood for attaining spiritual enlightenment. All deserve equality, but all were not created equally - diversity requires it.
That's what I was basically getting at. Average seems to be in a similar situation to that of my own, sometimes. She's shutting herself off from growing spiritually, because she feels it's a lost cause. However, the growth attained through the believe is what matters.

Btw, average, there's no "I", there's only you ~ lol.
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by average »

Sapius wrote:
David to average: Okay, now we're just having a semantic debate. What you call "Enlightenment" is what I call "true nature". What I call "enlightenment" (i.e. consciousness of true nature) is something you don't want to acknowledge, or even think about.
No, average is beyond the dualistic realm as in actually acknowledging or denying anything at all, or identifying with any dualistic mental projections, making your objections merely your own dualistic mental projections.

And what’s really wrong with one identifying ones Self in a non-dualistic sense rather than a dualistic one? Is that so hard to imagine? Average is pointing to the moon without really indulging in the nitpicking over the finger. If one cannot comprehend that, then that points to a lack of understanding, or mental blocks, or Ego perhaps; similar to that ‘mine is bigger than yours’ thing, and average does not actually indulge in that because that holds no inherent meaning.

It’s simply, carry water chop wood, without necessarily acknowledging or denying or even identifying with any particular thing at all. In other words, it’s simply God’s will; hence what exactly does or can an individual really do except whatever happens, fundamentally speaking?

BTW, that’s a God’s will driven point, not average’s point. If one thinks average is saying something, then that’s his problem.

That’s how I comprehend it.


do you like my avatar?
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Shahrazad
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by Shahrazad »

do you like my avatar?
It's about time you changed it. I'm actually getting tired of looking at the Chinese girl.

I liked the crying baby better.
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David Quinn
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened

Post by David Quinn »

Sapius wrote:
David to average: Okay, now we're just having a semantic debate. What you call "Enlightenment" is what I call "true nature". What I call "enlightenment" (i.e. consciousness of true nature) is something you don't want to acknowledge, or even think about.
No, average is beyond the dualistic realm as in actually acknowledging or denying anything at all, or identifying with any dualistic mental projections, making your objections merely your own dualistic mental projections.

And what’s really wrong with one identifying ones Self in a non-dualistic sense rather than a dualistic one? Is that so hard to imagine? Average is pointing to the moon without really indulging in the nitpicking over the finger. If one cannot comprehend that, then that points to a lack of understanding, or mental blocks, or Ego perhaps; similar to that ‘mine is bigger than yours’ thing, and average does not actually indulge in that because that holds no inherent meaning.

It’s simply, carry water chop wood, without necessarily acknowledging or denying or even identifying with any particular thing at all. In other words, it’s simply God’s will; hence what exactly does or can an individual really do except whatever happens, fundamentally speaking?

BTW, that’s a God’s will driven point, not average’s point. If one thinks average is saying something, then that’s his problem.

That’s how I comprehend it.
Chuang Tzu once said something that applies here:

He who knows the part which the Heavenly in him plays, and knows also that which the Human in him ought to play, has reached the perfection of knowledge.

There is no question that Average has some insight into the nature of Reality, but his knowledge of how to deal with this insight is still immature. I'm not saying this just to put him down, but to articulate a very important point. There are many blind alleys peeling away on all sides as one advances towards wisdom, and if a person is not extremely alert it is easy for him to slide into of these alleys without him even knowing it.

Wisdom means knowing when to apply non-duality to a situation and when to apply duality. It all depends on what the situation is and who one is dealing with. If you go to a store and ask for a pint of milk, it would be of no use to you if the shop-keeper were to say, "Here, have a candle instead. After all, candles and milk are no different from another, as they are both dualistic illusions. The candle will be just as effective for your needs".

The shop-keeper might think he is being wise in pointing the customer's mind to non-duality, but in truth he is dogmatically applying his own insight indiscriminately and ignoring the realities of the situation at hand. He isn't really "chopping wood and carrying water". On the contrary, his dogmatism is actually interfering with this Zennish flow.

Simply pointing to non-duality all of the time, irrespective of the situation, is unintelligent and largely a waste of time. There needs to be the right conditions in place before such pointing can be effective. It is similar to the way in which a comedian needs to first set up the joke before delivering the punchline. If he did nothing else but deliver punchlines, the audience would only be confused and have no reason to laugh. He would be a failed comedian.

Similarly, if a Zen master were to do nothing else but hit people with a stick and constantly twitter, "Three pounds of flax!", it would have very little effect. A quality Zen master knows that he first has to create the right conditions so that the effectiveness of his "punchlines" can be maximized. Thus, sometimes he affirms dualistic realities, sometimes he takes them away again; sometimes he treats things as real, sometimes he treats them as unreal; sometimes he reasons at length, sometimes he cuts to the heart with a single Zennish arrow, etc - all done with great intelligence and skill, perfectly matching what the situation calls for.

Average is in danger of turning into a harmless one-trick pony, unless he takes these things on board and progresses to the next level.

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