GENIUS FORUMS

It is not that hard to give someone a glimpse of the true nature of reality, and when it happens, even if that person is not aware consciuosly that it has happened, it is a wonderous [and potentially frightening] thing. I have brought every member of my family [except my daughter who is not ready] to this moment - my husband more than once - simply by making them aware that when they are not thinking, all the usual frames of reference disappear, but they [their awareness] doesn't disappear. I remember one specific incident when my son experienced that silence of something that is no-thing and I asked him "can you see now that although you know me as your mother that I am not, in truth a mother at all, but for the sake of communication, I call you Jason and you call me Mom?" I can still see his face of pure wonder at catching the truth of what I was saying. The moment didn't last long and he didn't want to go any deeper [fear] but I knew that a wisdom seed had been planted, one that he may or may not water in the future.

Each time my husband has caught a glimpse of his own impermance and emtpiness, which has been maybe three or four times in our marriage of 37 years, he is wonderstruck, but always, when the moment is over, he says to me, "That was cool, but I don't want to go 'there.'"

Dennis mentioned the shock a mother has when she first realizes her children are but causal appearances. This happened to my sister one day when she caught a glimpse of what I was saying and her first reaction was "you mean my children are not actually there?" Her initial shock is over, and since that day, she and I have had several fruitful and delightfully humerous conversations about the awakening process.

For the moment of awakening to be fruitful and not end up sending someone down the path of nihilism, the student must be ready to hear what the teacher has to offer; as well, trust between both is absolutely imperative.

Moving

No one wants to go there. At first I experienced the same thing, the fear of my own shallow existence, worse than fear when you don't know what your looking at, it was especially fearful to be in the complete dark and see that my body existed to me only as some hollow feelings. I almost ran from the awareness myself, but eventually it becomes something you can cope with, I'm almost always aware of it now, the more one spends being aware of it the more accustomed to it they become, I have changed my world, it used to be majority unaware and sometimes lucid, but now it is majority wakeful and sometimes unaware, even now I view this laptop from that "a step back" view, and know it is not me typing away (one of the reasons I assign divinity to "it").

I've been doing experiments with my girlfriend showing her the dream-like nature of things, it is easiest to do in a very dark room, or if you can get someone to be wakeful while their eyes are closed.

*last night I was doing just that before bed and watching the wavy formless turn into slight forms then be replaced with actual seeing, only to become aware again and witness that seeing fade into hollow forms and then back to the wavy formlessness. So indescribable and subtle, that transformation.

Now moving, seeing that you see, have you discerned also that you are dreaming and that life can be described as one very long dream? At the moment through habit-energy we are attached to this form, but it exists as much as a form in a dream would.

What happens if you remove craving for form, Buddha said extinction from cycle of rebirth, but then what's next? A higher existence?

I realized that we all have the ability to block out most form at any time, it's as easy as closing your eyes, I realized that if I weren't to open them again, then "here" completely disappears, it's as simple as that, the only reason you keep waking up every morning is because you are deciding to perpetuate that habit-energy, to feed the illusion of the self, both literally feeding it and mentally :b

Although even after blocking it out the mind still has such craving that it reverts back to form and dream, I guess the only way is to have that still minded awareness that doesn't do so.

To me it feels like I'm choosing to stay here when I don't have to be, although I guess that's more of a feeling rather than something I know, as I've never not come back.

Diebert, yeah they have to keep that belief system with the appearance of stability,I want the best ways to describe/show/debate this to the average person, why? What else do you do with knowledge? Or with your time? No one will ever properly understand meditation and it's importance unless they understand this

I can still see his face of pure wonder at catching the truth of what I was saying

the 'grok'.
astonishment.
catching the act.
amazing.
transmission.
well done.

Now moving, seeing that you see, have you discerned also that you are dreaming and that life can be described as one very long dream? At the moment through habit-energy we are attached to this form, but it exists as much as a form in a dream would.

A rose by any other name...

would smell equally as sweet,

Or,

it is what it is, we are all experiencing the same is, and therefore any different names don't mean anything as they are only referring to the same is


* But this here is irrelevant as people still find ways to disagree on things other than it's name, for example, if the cause is divine or if that is just another name and therefore it isn't

if the cause is divine or if that is just another name and therefore it isn't

There cannot be THE cause, this is to place God on a fixed point of a beginning, which is just plain silly. :-) There are causes, the source of which one cannot know, but one can manage their world of sentient suffering by finding causes for suffering and effecting changes based on these known [temporal] causes. Smoking caused me to suffer coughing and shortness of breath, I quit smoking, I no longer cough or suffer shortness of breath. Do I know the cause of breath or the tobacco plant? No.

Divine is a subjective word/world, which means it is divine for the one who imagines divine, but is not divine for the one who does not imagine divine. Which means there is no absolute truth of divine. Knowing this, the one who desires union with the absolute [union with all things] will give up their imagination of divine.

First cause is a different concept altogether from "common source", first cause implies there was a beginning.

You know that union with the absolute your talking about? Some other people talked about it too what'dayaknow

"Heaven means to be one with god"- Confucius
And this guy:
"May they become completely one as we are one, I in them, and you in me" - Jesus
Him too:
"Great Mother", "Master carpenter", "common source" "returning to the source" - Lao Tzu
Even Buddha talked about demi-god style beings, a common source, and "divine, celestial, heavenly beings", the only thing he said was how the idea of a "creator" is silly, I agree, the idea of a creator is completely wrong, it implies all the wrong things like a separation between creator and created, and that there was a beginning.


But moving, your forgetting, you know that your mind and my mind has a common essence and a common source, that our individuality is an illusion, that they aren't actually two minds, this is already enough to show all minds are "one mind".

I've seen a bunch of people on here mistake the wisdom of non-discrimination for the wisdom of agnosticism lol, those two aren't the same.

Don't you know that you only know about "Not-knowing" because people like Confucius said so? He not-knew but he knew God, whaat?
Because of people like Socrates, apparently he was the wisest man alive for not-knowing, but he knew about our divine essence? whaaaat?
Lao Tzu, not-knowing master, one source, one master carpenter, the great mother, whaaat? (Tao is a 3 letter word )
"Just realize where you come from"

Just confused as to how three of the wisest men who are the reason you know about not-knowing seemed to have known something!

The one who imagines divine has a false and abstract conception of nothing, the one who sees their own divine existence sees it clearly,

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:....I want the best ways to describe/show/debate this to the average person, why? What else do you do with knowledge? Or with your time? No one will ever properly understand meditation and it's importance unless they understand this

It's perhaps more the question how the knowledge, the realizations of the nature of things will do to you. It challenges a lot of attachments and then it's not the reaction of average persons which has to be overcome [they will hardly care] but first and foremost ourselves. Now you seem to think the hardest part for you has been done? It's possible of course but I can only talk from my own experience and observation of how these discoveries go. And it's just that the way you are describing things like "essence" and "one mind" that I suspect that some real challenges are still ahead of you. They look like bicyle training wheels to me.

What happens if you remove craving for form, Buddha said extinction from cycle of rebirth, but then what's next? A higher existence?

Without the craving for existence it's now possible to see the reality of non-existence. How much further one can reach with ones understanding or sight? In the world however there's always a "what's next" and you are part of that, it's the arrow of the mind: expectation. Obviously a lot of possibilities are now open as with desire also fear dissipates. By that time there's always some path appearing but you cannot take the non-existent credit for its course - of course. Here's an interesting Buddha story in this contexT:

• The Blessed One was once living at Kosambi in a wood of simsapa trees. He picked up a few leaves in his hand, and he asked the bhikkhus, "How do you conceive this, bhikkhus, which is more, the few leaves that I have picked up in my hand or those on the trees in the wood?". "The leaves that the Blessed One has picked up in his hand are few, Lord; those in the wood are far more". "'So too, bhikkhus, the things that I have known by direct knowledge are more; the things that I have told you are only a few. Why have I not told them? Because they bring no benefit, no advancement in the Holy Life, and because they do not lead to dispassion, to fading, to ceasing, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have not told them. And what have I told you? This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. That is what I have told you. Why have I told it? Because it brings benefit, and advancement in the Holy Life". - Samyutta Nikaya, LVI, 31

diebert

Again, are you going to assert that Confucius and whoever wrote Jesus were on bicycle training wheels too, not to mention Socrates and Lao Tzu, that's three of the original "not-knowers" talking directly about divine origin + Jesus, so maybe you have confused not-knowing, because it doesn't mean not-knowing God(three letter word, different meaning for every person in existence) and it never has, not even from Socrates "wisest man alive for I know one thing and that is that I know nothing".

lol at the Buddha story because I can only imagine what he was thinking. He knew there was no way he could ever properly explain what he knew. What he had already said must have been hard enough for people to grasp.

Next part, extinction of attachment, the end of craving for form, that is the way to end the cycle of rebirth according to Buddha, and if we are talking about ending "here" then clearly detachment from "here" is the way. A while ago I found out that to have the most detached meditative experience, all you have to do is... describing this very badly... feel detached. You have to not want to be here.

One time I was feeling an odd kind of ill, it was kind of like a headache were you just have to lay down and close your eyes, and because of how badly I did not want my eyes open, because of how much I disliked the feelings I was having, how badly having my eyes open seemed to feel, my mind felt overly detached and I was able to achieve a deeper meditation than ever previously, obviously I won't try and describe particular meditative experiences as that never ever goes well, I have found that this can be replicated very easily, I've wanted to ask someone else to try it.

All that would be required is to look around before beginning,...this is also being described badly..... look at everything as unfamiliar and non-judgmentally like we do with a clearer mind, then to focus on the detachment from it, look at it for the illusion it is, see it's hollowness, focus on the fact that body/place is not you, renounce your need for it basically, feel that you don't want it, leave it behind completely when you begin meditating, and remember something simple before: You have the ability to block off the senses at any time, sometimes it's as quick as closing your eyes, the only reason you return to form is because you make the choice too, because of your attachment to form, you either want to open your eyes or your mind wants sensual experience and reverts to images/dreaming. Hence detachment, not wanting, renouncement from, even dislike of that craving for form is the correct way for meditation, every time I get in this state of mind I have great experiences. It is these experiences that make me believe extinction is possible... technically it's as simple as closing your eyes and not coming back ( to form or dream/imagining), and how does one simply not come back? There is only one way... you have to not want to come back.

All of us unknowingly desire form, we are so overly attached to this form that we perpetuate the habit-energy by constantly accepting to feed the illusions, quenching the thirsts, etc

This will never end unless we make the decision to end it, unless we truly don't want here any longer, that is renunciation.

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:don't want here

Where is here ?
Where is there ?

"here" is not a place, it's sensual life, the endless cycle of experience, life, death, suffering.

"there" is not a place, it's without "here", are you not in the pursuit of overcoming craving for sensual life? Isn't this a path to enlightenment forum? Should be path of*

Diebert this is me trying to explain awakening to the average scientific thinker haha, this is the kind of thing I need help with, not good with describing it haha it all ends up sounding like a completely different concept, anyway this is how I tried to do it:

Your assertion is that our senses are being derived from the interaction of our bodies with the external world, but we only have one view of what this magical external world looks like. In other words, you are imagining some correlating place, just some minor concept in your mind people use to rationalize what's happening, but when you realize you don't know anything, you stop trying to rationalize and except what is, mystical forms and mysterious sensual experiences, that's all that is, even your imagining of this corresponding place is only one of these sensual illusions, some faint imagination of the mind.

Just have to accept your dreaming while your asleep and while your awake :b It's an argument between the guy that has become lucid in a dream and the guy who hasn't yet figured out he's dreaming :p You just have to realize there is no "self" there is only a collection of fleeting and transient feelings. The only reason you assign "more reality" to here is because your here right now. You give it "more reality" meaning that when you see something in a dream you don't think those objects actually exist anywhere, but when you see something while awake you do think all those objects actually exist somewhere.

I'm standing right here in the same realm as you man, I can see that it's of dream-like existence, that the things are illusions existing only of the mind, these illusions are affected by your thoughts, which are effected by the experiences, which then effect thoughts, in an endless circle where you have no control or free will, when you realize you have no control over your thoughts and no control over the experiences then you see that they are flowing just like a dream, that there is no "you" in the sense of a body in a place, we are attached to these sensual forms so much that we have been perpetuating the habit energy and accumulating our craving for sensual experience by constantly feeding that craving, those desires, of the form you believe is you, not realizing that your whole existence is made up of feelings and transient sensations.

By accepting that it's not real you escape all the delusion. "A wise man recognizing reality is but an illusion does not act as if it is real and thus escapes the suffering". Upon awakening to this awareness and being here in this same mysterious realm of dream-like existence it becomes pretty damn clear, you can see it, like being lucid in a dream. Don't you know that observation of sense experience is the source of all our knowledge? You need to observe more instead of trying to rationalize. Get rid of the distraction of thought for a while. Can't you accept the possibility that maybe, it's just that most people haven't seen this? Haven't yet awoken?

You have to realize there is one thing and one thing only that makes you see this place as anything more than a dream-like hallucination of the mind, this is the one thing: The past, keeping the past in mind, creating past associations constantly, when you view things without past, that is with clarity, without bias, with an empty mind, you then see that the room around you, your body, all of it, is made up of transient sensations and feelings, nothing more. You could do this right now if you would just look around unbiasly, as if you were viewing the things around you for the very first time, without remembering where you are or how you got there or who you are, just by looking. It's spirituality not science, it's being aware and observing your sense experience (the source of all knowledge) that lets you understand your sense experience.

"If there were no illusion, there would be no enlightenment" - Buddhist saying.

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:"here" is not a place, it's sensual life, the endless cycle of experience, life, death, suffering.

"there" is not a place, it's without "here", are you not in the pursuit of overcoming craving for sensual life? Isn't this a path to enlightenment forum? Should be path of*

how can there be without here ?

no, i'm not in the pursuit of overcoming craving. I already came.

hahah

You wouldn't be talking to me if that were the case, I am not just talking about awakening, you are as attached to sensual life as I am.

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:hahah

You wouldn't be talking to me .

Who else is there ?

Close your eyes block off your senses and we are experiencing the exact same thing.

Think about that.

See the world as yourself.

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Close your eyes block off your senses and we are experiencing the exact same thing.

Think about that.

See the world as yourself.

Open your eyes and see the world as yourself :)

This cycle of birth and death you mean.... Isn't this a forum about enlightenment?

"incomprehensible to them will also be the end of all formations, the
forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of
craving; detachment, extinction, Nirvana.

Were you unaware he's talking about enlightenment here?

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:This cycle of birth and death

What's born ?
What dies ?

Appearances, it is the extinction of appearances and forms, why are you being an idiot, you know this of Buddhism? Tell me where he went wrong, or where I have misinterpreted, where I have gone wrong, or what your alternative is?

birth & death are illusions remember ?
to attain the deathless, there is nothing to attain.

I didn't say I wasn't eternal or that death was anything more than another sensory experience, I said that extinction from sensual experience is nirvana...

Are you experiencing the senses kunga?

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:extinction from sensual experience is nirvana...Are you experiencing the senses kunga?

I think it's Nirvana when I drink an ice cold beer on a hot summer day :)
I'm not dead yet !

Delighted by sensual pleasures.

Practicing non-being, overcoming that craving for sensual experience.

Such a hot day