GENIUS FORUMS

WhorlyWhelk wrote:

The Gay Science, 344 wrote:"Will to truth" -- that might be a concealed will to death.

WhorlyWhelk wrote:

DQ: I agree that everything in nature can be described as the will to power. One such example is the process of overcoming ignorance and delusion, which, being a part of nature, is a perfectly natural process.

Only if it helps the species. Truth in itself can either help or hinder life, the will to power. If it hinders it will be evolutionarily disfavored. Natural selection doesn't value truth.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:For almost everyone it certainly would mean that. That's why he wrote books for "all and none" (Ein Buch für Alle und Keinen).

WW: Only if it helps the species. Truth in itself can either help or hinder life, the will to power. If it hinders it will be evolutionarily disfavored. Natural selection doesn't value truth.

Diebert: What if truth would be just a way of life? Wouldn't it be part of the evolutionary struggle? Could it not select itself and push for its own survival like any other trait? Like wings when seen as genetic trait? In a way it would find itself then also in competition as well in cooperation with other ways of nature. The battle with ignorance however is a case apart because one could argue that ignorance is like a half-formed wing, a kind of dodo implementation of wings. Or like Nietzsche described humans: grotesque pieces and parts of some future image.

WhorlyWhelk wrote:For almost everyone (I presume you meant the people who don't have will to truth) will to truth simply means nothing or is non-existent.

The question is why anyone would place such extreme value on truth. What are they running away from?

Truth is a value judgment, not a way of life.

And how can someone argue that ignorance is a half formed wing? Half formed wings don't work for flying whereas ignorance works so well that the majority of society is in with it.

The question is why anyone would place such extreme value on truth. What are they running away from?

WW: The question is why anyone would place such extreme value on truth. What are they running away from?

DQ: Unconsciousness.
That is the supreme irony of your current understanding of Nietzsche's position. The will to truth is, in effect, the will to maximum consciousness. To avoid striving for maximum consciousness is akin to valuing unconsciousness - or in other words, valuing death.

Neil Melnyk wrote:And how can someone argue that ignorance is a half formed wing? Half formed wings don't work for flying whereas ignorance works so well that the majority of society is in with it.

After giving it some more thought, I'd like to add that it's not as much the ignorance that works so well, it's the natural instinct, despite ignorance. The ignorance is only in place to prevent truth to cause too much damage to the working instincts.

This is the cause of suffering and some people would suggest more ignorance to elevate it and make things run more smoothly.

Nick: The question is why anyone would place such extreme value on truth. What are they running away from?

DQ: Unconsciousness.

That is the supreme irony of your current understanding of Nietzsche's position. The will to truth is, in effect, the will to maximum consciousness. To avoid striving for maximum consciousness is akin to valuing unconsciousness - or in other words, valuing death.

Nick: You will need to define what you mean by consciousness here because it is vague. Do you mean understanding?

Neil Melnyk wrote:The truth that life is meaningless usually harms one's will to power. Thus it is disadvantageous evolutionarily speaking.

Having a will to power, a point or goal or value in life, is the cause of suffering, and this is regardless of how ignorant one is.

Now David and Kevin like to equate truth to having no meaning in life, or having a meaning in life to delusion. Paradoxically they have a meaning to their own life in doing so and trying to promote their philosophy.

It should be pretty easy to affirm that non-suffering will never be evolutionarily favored.

Neil: Now David and Kevin like to equate truth to having no meaning in life, or having a meaning in life to delusion. Paradoxically they have a meaning to their own life in doing so and trying to promote their philosophy.

Diebert: I assume they have only noticed that promoting their philosophy is what they are currently driven to do, after all was said and done. Having seen the emptiness of all meaning doesn't stop one from engaging in meaningful dialog or actions. Creating and giving meaning is what people do, it doesn't stop after understanding how it works. And certainly it doesn't equal all meaning in its ultimate non-relevance. On the contrary!

The Three Metamorphoses

Three metamorphoses of the spirit do I designate to you: how the spirit becometh a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a child.

Many heavy things are there for the spirit, the strong load-bearing spirit in which reverence dwelleth: for the heavy and the heaviest longeth its strength.

What is heavy? so asketh the load-bearing spirit; then kneeleth it down like the camel, and wanteth to be well laden.

What is the heaviest thing, ye heroes? asketh the load-bearing spirit, that I may take it upon me and rejoice in my strength.

Is it not this: To humiliate oneself in order to mortify one's pride? To exhibit one's folly in order to mock at one's wisdom?

Or is it this: To desert our cause when it celebrateth its triumph? To ascend high mountains to tempt the tempter?

Or is it this: To feed on the acorns and grass of knowledge, and for the sake of truth to suffer hunger of soul?

Or is it this: To be sick and dismiss comforters, and make friends of the deaf, who never hear thy requests?

Or is it this: To go into foul water when it is the water of truth, and not disclaim cold frogs and hot toads?

Or is it this: To love those who despise us, and give one's hand to the phantom when it is going to frighten us?

All these heaviest things the load-bearing spirit taketh upon itself: and like the camel, which, when laden, hasteneth into the wilderness, so hasteneth the spirit into its wilderness.

But in the loneliest wilderness happeneth the second metamorphosis: here the spirit becometh a lion; freedom will it capture, and lordship in its own wilderness.

Its last Lord it here seeketh: hostile will it be to him, and to its last God; for victory will it struggle with the great dragon.

What is the great dragon which the spirit is no longer inclined to call Lord and God? "Thou-shalt," is the great dragon called. But the spirit of the lion saith, "I will."

"Thou-shalt," lieth in its path, sparkling with gold--a scale-covered beast; and on every scale glittereth golden, "Thou shalt!"

The values of a thousand years glitter on those scales, and thus speaketh the mightiest of all dragons: "All the values of things--glitter on me.

All values have already been created, and all created values--do I represent. Verily, there shall be no 'I will' any more. Thus speaketh the dragon.

My brethren, wherefore is there need of the lion in the spirit? Why sufficeth not the beast of burden, which renounceth and is reverent?

To create new values--that, even the lion cannot yet accomplish: but to create itself freedom for new creating--that can the might of the lion do.

To create itself freedom, and give a holy Nay even unto duty: for that, my brethren, there is need of the lion.

To assume the right to new values--that is the most formidable assumption for a load-bearing and reverent spirit. Verily, unto such a spirit it is preying, and the work of a beast of prey.

As its holiest, it once loved "Thou-shalt": now is it forced to find illusion and arbitrariness even in the holiest things, that it may capture freedom from its love: the lion is needed for this capture.

But tell me, my brethren, what the child can do, which even the lion could not do? Why hath the preying lion still to become a child?

Innocence is the child, and forgetfulness, a new beginning, a game, a self-rolling wheel, a first movement, a holy Yea.

Aye, for the game of creating, my brethren, there is needed a holy Yea unto life: ITS OWN will, willeth now the spirit; HIS OWN world winneth the world's outcast.

Three metamorphoses of the spirit have I designated to you: how the spirit became a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a child.--

David Quinn wrote:It is a combination of understanding and perception. A person enters into maximum consciousness when he becomes aware of the nature of Reality. His lack of delusions and mental blocks means that he is able to see things very clearly. His comprehension of human psychology is very deep. He is aware of the deeper undercurrents that shape people's lives. He has a highly developed awareness of causal consequences. He always has the long-term future in mind.