GENIUS FORUMS

Kevin Solway wrote:

We live in an age devoid of ideals, devoid of dreams, devoid of hope. The dollar is our God, television our mentor, the newspaper our Bible. Drugs and sex make our heaven. Nobody even thinks of perfection as we strive headlong for mediocrity with workman-like efficiency.

We are dying.

The ideal of perfect romantic love is far from being the loftiest of ideals. It hardly compares with the ideals of true knowledge and wisdom. Yet the romantic ideal is far superior to the so-called ideals of material wealth and power. And like the king in Kierkegaard's parable, we may learn to risk everything in order to make love (perfection) possible.

An ideal is the most wonderful disease, for it makes one totally dissatisfied with life. Only then can one look higher, higher, and maybe . . . begin . . . to think.

I propose that there is no such thing as an ideal outside of delusion. I further propose that desire is the motivation for any action - right down to such desires as to pay one's bills or brush one's teeth. If one has a bad taste in one's mouth, one's desire to brush one's teeth is increased, and the teeth get brushed even if it is not a regularly scheduled time to do so. One might think one is paying one's bills because it is the scheduled time to do so, but without whatever desire - such as to have water and electricity or simply the desire to be a responsible person - even that would not get done.

The more one desires, the more one sets out to accomplish. If one desires that which is unrealistic - such as an ideal - one sets one's self up for disappointment; but if one desires nothing and resultantly sets out to achieve nothing, one is not disappointed but neither does one find anything worth living for. If one becomes that inert, one might as well be dead.

Having a goal in life - whether for an ideal or for something realistic - involves a desire to reach that goal. Desiring an ideal is desiring the impossible, which is insane. Setting one's goals in the general direction of an ideal draws a path to the highest possible achievement, but it is desire - a trait that seems to be frequently denounced on this forum - that motivates one in the direction of any goal.

One can not even achieve wisdom if one does not desire it.
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It seems ridiculous to me that someone would want to pursue the truth.

Why does it seem ridiculous to you?



BTW, good to see you back. :)

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:I propose that there is no such thing as an ideal outside of delusion. I further propose that desire is the motivation for any action - right down to such desires as to pay one's bills or brush one's teeth. If one has a bad taste in one's mouth, one's desire to brush one's teeth is increased, and the teeth get brushed even if it is not a regularly scheduled time to do so. One might think one is paying one's bills because it is the scheduled time to do so, but without whatever desire - such as to have water and electricity or simply the desire to be a responsible person - even that would not get done.

Ideals are bred of delusion, but may lead towards enlightenment and therefore banishment of the delusion which once engulfed the idealist's initial engagement with his goal. That, of course, would be an example of Kevin's idea of the highest ideal- that of
enlightenment, a life purposeful of Truth.

Once having attained and successfully implemented the principles of the enlightened life, the skin of idealism may be said to have been shed much akin to the dead skin of the molting snake. While the deluded, useless mimeograph sloughs off like so much dead skin after growing in wisdom, the overall blue-print inspired by idealism is readily observable in the skin and body of the healthy snake.

The more one desires, the more one sets out to accomplish. If one desires that which is unrealistic - such as an ideal - one sets one's self up for disappointment; but if one desires nothing and resultantly sets out to achieve nothing, one is not disappointed but neither does one find anything worth living for. If one becomes that inert, one might as well be dead.

Desires may be brought to the conscious mind, or left as an unconscious impulse. Ideals are desires brought under the direction of consciousness. Without elevating desire to awareness, it remains something under which our response and will is limited. If one is unawares of the nature of the desires driving his actions, he remains at the whims of these desires.

To actually have a desire, a goal, and a method wrought from one's mind, one has breathed life into an ideal. While the ideal is cut from the raw, deluded material of unconsciousness, that does not automatically eliminate the outcome from the realm of possibility. To my mind, the creation of an ideal is the highest direction one may give to his desires. The very character of a man may be measured by the distance between the ideals he has wrought and how closely his life has followed it. And as Kevin noted, the ideal of wisdom and knowledge is the highest one can aspire to.

Having a goal in life - whether for an ideal or for something realistic - involves a desire to reach that goal. Desiring an ideal is desiring the impossible, which is insane. Setting one's goals in the general direction of an ideal draws a path to the highest possible achievement, but it is desire - a trait that seems to be frequently denounced on this forum - that motivates one in the direction of any goal.

In this forum, and in the world at large, the wise denounce desire unconsecrated by wisdom. To desire is human, to follow desires blindly is animal. To follow desires blindly is truly insane, having your actions been robbed of reason before being set into motion, the outcome is insanity. There's nothing wrong with desire, it is a natural, inescapable facet of existence. It would be a shame to follow the New Age revolt against thought and reason, listlessly affirming desires because they're "there."

One can not even achieve wisdom if one does not desire it.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Hey Scott, how's it going?

Ignorance is bliss. Wisdom is torment. It's strange to watch people, out of boredom or curiosity, seek the truth.

I have nothing to say about it other than that.

Going okay, Matt.

sschaula wrote:Ignorance is bliss. Wisdom is torment.

Not really. It's more as Russian mystic Gurdjieff wrote, "Blessed is he who has a soul, blessed is he who has none, but woe and grief to him who has it in embryo."

It's strange to watch people, out of boredom or curiosity, seek the truth.

People do not seek the truth out of boredom or curiousity. It's too tough for that. They seek the truth because they must.

I have nothing to say about it other than that.

Yes, we know you have sworn yourself off the path. Just wondering, why?

And, yeah, good to see you again, Scott.

Not really. It's more as Russian mystic Gurdjieff wrote, "Blessed is he who has a soul, blessed is he who has none, but woe and grief to him who has it in embryo."

I disagree.

People do not seek the truth out of boredom or curiousity. It's too tough for that. They seek the truth because they must.

Why must they?

Yes, we know you have sworn yourself off the path. Just wondering, why?

What path?

And, yeah, good to see you again, Scott.

Thanks.

sschaula wrote:CG: People do not seek the truth out of boredom or curiousity. It's too tough for that. They seek the truth because they must.

SS: Why must they?

They are compelled to for whatever reason. Does the reason matter? The fact remains.

CG: Yes, we know you have sworn yourself off the path. Just wondering, why?

SS: What path?

The path to truth, to enlightenment, to greater awareness, to wisdom, what Jesus called "The Way," what Gurdjieff called "The Fourth Way" what some native Americans refer to as "The Good Red Road."

What, now you're denying such a path exists? By what other means would someone get there?

They are compelled to for whatever reason. Does the reason matter? The fact remains.

"Compelled for whatever reason", like boredom and curiosity.

The path to truth, to enlightenment, to greater awareness, to wisdom, what Jesus called "The Way," what Gurdjieff called "The Fourth Way" what some native Americans refer to as "The Good Red Road."

What, now you're denying such a path exists? By what other means would someone get there?

Get where? What a joke.

Fine, Scott. Tell you what, if I'm ever in your neck of the woods, let's go see a movie. That would be fun.

Meantime, and even then, we won't talk of truth.

But why the return to Genius? I'll guess boredom and curiousity?

You've misunderstood what I was saying.

I haven't returned...I just came to the board, looked at one topic, and commented.

sschaula wrote:"Compelled for whatever reason", like boredom and curiosity.

Well it ususually starts with taking a step back and looking at the world at large and noticing how fucked up it is. If you don't come to the conclusion that the world is fucked up then you are mentally retarded. Eventually you might connect the dots, which isn't that hard if you care enough to, and get to the source of the problem. The problem being how ignorant, egotistical, and full of shit people are. After this realization one might then seek something worthy of living for, something far more grand than the hypocritical and egotistical lifestyle that is praised to the heavens by people from all walks of life. Then maybe, just maybe they might be lucky enough to have an insight that causes them to lead a truly noble life. Of course, that's just me...

Ignorance is bliss. Wisdom is torment.

This is the attitude of people who are intrinsically religious minded.

If wisdom really was worse than ignorance, we would not have a desire for technological development. We would have remained ignorant and not progressively developed tools to make life easier. So mental pain is not worse than physical pain.

Everything is two sided though, it is true that true wisdom does bring pain. Like any emotion though, it is the sort of pain one can become accustomed to over time and it's effects lessen.

The sort of wisdom here though is a little different - it can destroy one's desire and ability to cooperate with the herd, as the herd is so ignorant and mad. This herd separation can result in excessive mental pain, for those who were not destined to be loners anyway.

sschaula wrote:You've misunderstood what I was saying.

I haven't returned...I just came to the board, looked at one topic, and commented.

Well, here is my comment then...

Ignorance is bliss. Wisdom is torment.

Only the torment of wisdom can tell you what bliss lies in ignorance, comparatively.

The quote in no way suggests that one should remain ignorant, for the ignorant have their share and interpretations of torment.

It's strange to watch people, out of boredom or curiosity, seek the truth.

I won't be surprised if it was not truth in the first place that led you to see the strangeness of it all.

Well it ususually starts with taking a step back and looking at the world at large and noticing how fucked up it is. If you don't come to the conclusion that the world is fucked up then you are mentally retarded. Eventually you might connect the dots, which isn't that hard if you care enough to, and get to the source of the problem. The problem being how ignorant, egotistical, and full of shit people are. After this realization one might then seek something worthy of living for, something far more grand than the hypocritical and egotistical lifestyle that is praised to the heavens by people from all walks of life. Then maybe, just maybe they might be lucky enough to have an insight that causes them to lead a truly noble life. Of course, that's just me...

I'm in full agreement with all that you've said here, Nick. I just have doubts about whether it's truly worth it, or if it's better to just let human-kind be the unconscious animals they are, killing eachother off and hungrily seeking power at all costs....then dying and having all they've accumulated become worthless to them. Ceasing to exist.

Once you become wise, there's no turning back. Before people embark on this "path" they should know what's in store for them. It's not fun and games once you get serious about it. Then it's reality, cold and harsh. "Life is suffering" is better understood, with wisdom.

Jamesh,

This is the attitude of people who are intrinsically religious minded.

Nuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh. <- That's the sound of stupidity, and it's all I can comprehend when I read what you type. Haven't you been at this forum longer than me? And you still have nothing to show for it?

If wisdom really was worse than ignorance, we would not have a desire for technological development. We would have remained ignorant and not progressively developed tools to make life easier. So mental pain is not worse than physical pain.

...what? Where is this coming from?

Everything is two sided though, it is true that true wisdom does bring pain. Like any emotion though, it is the sort of pain one can become accustomed to over time and it's effects lessen.

Haha, really?

The sort of wisdom here though is a little different - it can destroy one's desire and ability to cooperate with the herd, as the herd is so ignorant and mad. This herd separation can result in excessive mental pain, for those who were not destined to be loners anyway.

I agree with this, although I don't really understand the last sentence. However, it's not as if you are incapable of running alongside the gazelles, it's that you see their true nature and know the truth about their lives and your own. It's not as if by becoming wise they avoid you...if that's happening to you it simply means you are a loser. Don't worry, that can be fixed. But what can't be fixed is human nature, and that is the depressing part.

Sapius,

Only the torment of wisdom can tell you what bliss lies in ignorance, comparatively.

The quote in no way suggests that one should remain ignorant, for the ignorant have their share and interpretations of torment.

Agreed.

what can't be fixed is human nature, and that is the depressing part.

Totally agreed.

You were active here a little over a year, so you picked up a good amount. Have you absorbed all that you personally can absorb? You are concious enough to be aware of your surroundings, and you see that Reality is Ugly - and you regret this awareness. In this way, ignorance is bliss. Reality may be to ugly to love, but the next recognition is that Reality is too beautiful to hate. One more step Scott.

Both loving It and hating It are forms of attachment. You're ready to give up your attachment to Truth, which is a step on the path - but where you go from there is either further up the path or off into the shrubbery.

For some giving up thinking is easy, and it shows easily. For others, like me, giving up thinking is impossible. Because of your career choice, thinking may not be right for you right now. That's okay, I hope you come back when you are ready, and I hope you keep in touch meanwhile. I like to know that you're still okay.

You may not be made for the path, or the path may not be right for you right now. The path will always be there. Very few people were made for the path, and it is okay if you were not one of them.

Very few people even become grown-ups, as they remain children throughout their lives. I believe you gained enough to at least be more grown-up - so you will likely always be ahead of the herd.
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E,

You also have misunderstood what I was saying. I guess I might as well go through it point by point.

You were active here a little over a year, so you picked up a good amount.

I've been here for more than a year. I think I showed up around 2003.

Have you absorbed all that you personally can absorb?

Of "the truth", yes. Have I learned all I can possibly learn? No.

You are concious enough to be aware of your surroundings, and you see that Reality is Ugly - and you regret this awareness. In this way, ignorance is bliss. Reality may be to ugly to love, but the next recognition is that Reality is too beautiful to hate. One more step Scott.

There are no more steps, since wisdom is not a path, and it's not that I'm only part of the way there. I never said reality with a capital R is ugly...I never said it wasn't beautiful.

Both loving It and hating It are forms of attachment. You're ready to give up your attachment to Truth, which is a step on the path - but where you go from there is either further up the path or off into the shrubbery.

Why do you talk as if you know the entire path? Anyway, that's beside the point. The point is this - you are right that loving reality and hating reality are both indicators of an attachment to something. You may be right that giving up an attachment to truth is a step on the path...what needs to be found out first is if there truly is a path. If there truly is an end to the seeking. I say there isn't, until you stop seeking what's already obvious. Saying where you go after you choose to be unattached to truth, is either further along or becoming stagnant - this also depends on whether there is actually a path with a lucky pot of gold at the end, or if there isn't a path and people are just walking through an endless desert seeing mirages.

So, first finish your journey then talk to me about it.

For some giving up thinking is easy, and it shows easily. For others, like me, giving up thinking is impossible. Because of your career choice, thinking may not be right for you right now. That's okay, I hope you come back when you are ready, and I hope you keep in touch meanwhile. I like to know that you're still okay.

Giving up thinking? I don't see how it could be possible for anyone, if they were thinking before. It would probably take a lot of brain damage.

You hope I come back when I'm ready...for what? To play along in religiosity, like yourself? It's funny. I commented on your topic, Elizabeth, to let you know that you aren't ready yet, and to tell you what it takes to be ready.

We all end up choosing what we're ready for. If you choose to stay here playing the part time philosopher game, then that's what you can handle. If you choose to be real about it, then that's what you'll be able to handle. I came to warn you that it's not all it's cracked up to be.

You may not be made for the path, or the path may not be right for you right now. The path will always be there. Very few people were made for the path, and it is okay if you were not one of them.

How very cult-like of you.

Let me tell you a truth: the path is never there. Don't be so psychotic.

Very few people even become grown-ups, as they remain children throughout their lives. I believe you gained enough to at least be more grown-up - so you will likely always be ahead of the herd.

Very few people see through their own beliefs, and pierce into true understanding. Until they do, everything is a game. Talking of the truth is a game. "The path" is a game. Adults not being as grown up as you, in your own mind, is a game. Wisdom is when you stop playing games and see it all as it is.

I'm sure you know that already, at least in theory. If you think you're up for it, put it into practice. My point in this topic is that you may regret doing so.

sschaula wrote:what needs to be found out first is if there truly is a path. If there truly is an end to the seeking. I say there isn't, until you stop seeking what's already obvious. Saying where you go after you choose to be unattached to truth, is either further along or becoming stagnant - this also depends on whether there is actually a path with a lucky pot of gold at the end, or if there isn't a path and people are just walking through an endless desert seeing mirages.

To my mind, there is only the path. I don't believe in any pot of gold at the end, and I think that is one of those lies they were talking about being necessary to lure people into becoming wiser.

Using different references, everyone is on their own path of sorts. Understandings of definitions are like the mirages you mentioned, but the recognition and understanding of that is part of wisdom.

I appreciate the intent of your warning my friend, and don't mistake my use of the vocabulary of the board for being "cult-like." You should already know I will never fit in here or anywhere else for that matter.

sschaula wrote:Very few people see through their own beliefs, and pierce into true understanding.

Very few people even discover their own beliefs. Most just adopt someone else's beliefs and never even see through those.

sschaula wrote:Wisdom is when you stop playing games and see it all as it is. I'm sure you know that already,

Yes, I do.

sschaula wrote:If you think you're up for it, put it into practice. My point in this topic is that you may regret doing so.

I have always put Wisdom, as best as I understood it, into practice. And yes, it is far more painful to put Wisdom into practice than to put wisdom into practice. You are right that I have been burned very badly by Reality, and I am not as strong as I used to be because of it. The thing is that I am compelled to righteousness, even at serious personal cost. I don't know how much of a clue you actually have about what doing the right thing has cost me personally, and some of the heaviest tolls I have taken have not resulted in even a quarter of an amount of that much good for anyone. Regret is not realistic though as I have to do the right thing.

Thank you for your compassion.
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Scott, the desire to seek truth should not be surprising to you, nor would full understanding cause any suffering. But since I have nothing in particular to disagree with, I think you just need more time to digest the full implications of your own words.

Scott, the desire to seek truth should not be surprising to you,

If someone honestly wants to understand, no that's not suprising. I think everyone has that spark in them, the desire to know. What's suprising is when people chase around the word, "truth", as if it meant anything. When they talk about "the path" having never actually been on it.

nor would full understanding cause any suffering.

That's untrue. There's that saying, "the grass is always greener on the other side". That perfectly describes the seeker's condition. They have green grass on their own lawn, but for some reason their neighbor's seems that much greener. They already know the truth, but someone else says "you don't know the truth, THIS is the truth" and all of a sudden there is a desire. That seeker then feels compelled to begin a journey. They must reach that other side!

But little do they know that they already had it. All they gain out of the path to that other side, is nothing. They step onto their neighbors lawn and look back and realize that now their own lawn looks greener. Little did they know that's it's just a trick the eye plays on you.

So when a person devotes themselves to a path towards truth and understanding, when they reach the end of that path, which doesn't exist, and they find what they were looking for, they always realize that they've always had it and that it is nothing like what they imagined it would be like. They realize that life is suffering...that there is no "nirvana". You don't get elevated to some higher plane of existence when you know the truth. You don't feel bliss. It's the same old shit, but the only thing that's changed is that now you KNOW it's the same old shit. No more delusions truly means that you have no more delusions. No more mystical beliefs which you can hardly grasp. You move back to square one, now with the wisdom that lets you know your little journey was just useless.

You can't get back "on the path" after that. There is only square one, and the path was just all in your mind. Then you hear about other people searching and grasping for this path, and you try to tell them "look, buddy, you're kind of nuts. Give it up" and they assume that you're just not there yet.

Funny thing is, they don't even know where "there" is. If only they'd find it, they would realize that we're all "there"...right here. And that's the only possible "there", that there is.

Anyway, if people here think I don't know what I'm talking about, then what's the use in saying this? You guys say you desire the truth, and I talk about it and you think I am full of it, or something? So then find out for yourselves for once, instead of blindly judging me as wrong...or that I "haven't had enough time" yet.

Scott,

Earlier: Ignorance is bliss. Wisdom is torment.

Now: You don't get elevated to some higher plane of existence when you know the truth. You don't feel bliss. It's the same old shit, but the only thing that's changed is that now you KNOW it's the same old shit. No more delusions truly means that you have no more delusions. No more mystical beliefs which you can hardly grasp.

How does understanding cause the suffering you claimed earlier?

You guys say you desire the truth, and I talk about it and you think I am full of it, or something? So then find out for yourselves for once, instead of blindly judging me as wrong...or that I "haven't had enough time" yet.

Don't side me with the other people in this thread. I'm in closer agreement with you than they, in large part due to your growing detachment from this forum. I think that is a very wise decision.

I am saying: you are correct that you have learned a lot, and have a very good understanding of reality. But you are making some minor mistakes which are due to not fully integrating your understanding with your life. This I call digestion, which takes time and little else (only that light activity which aids digestion).

A sage does not suffer because of his wisdom. He suffers because of his stupidity.

sschaula wrote:I'm in full agreement with all that you've said here, Nick. I just have doubts about whether it's truly worth it, or if it's better to just let human-kind be the unconscious animals they are, killing eachother off and hungrily seeking power at all costs....then dying and having all they've accumulated become worthless to them. Ceasing to exist.

I see much potential in the human race, if only they could open their eyes to the Truth. Still, at this point I'm only concerned about perfecting myself, I can't realistically expect to help someone else until I've helped myself. Either way what's destined to happen will, our death lies in ignorance, our salvation lies in Truth.

sschaula wrote:Once you become wise, there's no turning back. Before people embark on this "path" they should know what's in store for them. It's not fun and games once you get serious about it. Then it's reality, cold and harsh. "Life is suffering" is better understood, with wisdom.

I don't think anyone makes the choice to become wise. I went through a time when I was constantly depressed because of the emptiness I saw in the lives of myself, family, friends, and all the rest of the world. I no longer had the inherent happiness I had in my childhood and teenage years, I was no longer ignorant, I became the seed of wisdom. Thank God this seed was nurtured otherwise my life would have been nothing but depressing and disapointing. So even though at times I suffer for the Truth, I would have suffered even more had I not come to know it. The Truth really did set me free.

Scott: Ignorance is bliss. Wisdom is torment.

Jamesh: This is the attitude of people who are intrinsically religious minded.

Scott: Nuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh. <- That's the sound of stupidity, and it's all I can comprehend when I read what you type.

Well, the statement is true. Religious people are ignorant about god (ask them to explain what god is and they don’t have clue), which is where they find bliss. The truly religious, like Muslims and evangelical religions abhor science (technological wisdom) and are always doing things to try and hamper its progress. They have no desire to see humans become more than they already are, as they believe that is reserved for heaven.

Haven't you been at this forum longer than me? And you still have nothing to show for it?

To my mind I have become significantly free of delusion*. The foundations upon which new knowledge is assessed by my brain are more solid and rational than before I came to this forum. I have not gained enlightenment, that is true - I have not reached the stage where I can say all my delusions are gone and I can feel justified settling into a form of know-all fundamentalism like the QRS (or the pride ridden Elizabeth). My ego is not adequately satisfied with what I have learnt.

* most others here don’t share that view of me, they think I’m the opposite, significantly delusional. I really don’t care as I see sufficient faults in them as to justify ignoring their opinions.

I was replying to the negative down-in-the-dumps tone of your initial posts. The poor boy didn’t find his enlightenment treasure in emotional satisfaction, and is now crying about it – as if your greatest desire was a return to ignorance. But that’s OK, I’ve felt the same thing many times.

It seems ridiculous to me that someone would want to pursue the truth.
Ignorance is bliss. Wisdom is torment. It's strange to watch people, out of boredom or curiosity, seek the truth.
I have nothing to say about it other than that.
I disagree.
Why must they?
What path?
"Compelled for whatever reason", like boredom and curiosity.
Get where? What a joke.
You've misunderstood what I was saying.
I haven't returned...I just came to the board, looked at one topic, and commented.

Your later posts are all far more reasonable.


Me: If wisdom really was worse than ignorance, we would not have a desire for technological development. We would have remained ignorant and not progressively developed tools to make life easier. So mental pain is not worse than physical pain.

Scott: ...what? Where is this coming from?

I do not separate wisdom from other forms of knowledge, including technological knowledge. Wisdom is just plain old knowledge to me. The only difference is that wisdom is more personalised.

In my quoted comment above I was simply stating the fact that the human species prefers knowledge over ignorance, as demonstrated by it’s adoption of technology over the millennium. It is PROOF that the total set of humanity positively values a release from pain, particularly physical pain, via the use of knowledge, more than the negative outcomes of such knowledge and more than the pains that ignorance brings. If this were not the case then inventions and knowledge would not spread from one person or group to another. They spread because they have a higher value than ignorance – Wisdom is better than ignorance (at least in the short term).

Wisdom/knowledge creates opportunities for mental pain. We see all these things that need fixing but we cannot fix them, our Will to Power is hampered and our ego is dissatisfied. Our Will to Power also seeks completion and achievement, but, as you say yourself, wisdom does not bring a completeness of knowledge that satisfies the ego – our search continues and there is no absolute satisfaction, seemingly even if we reach a state of being called enlightenment, in which we are significantly satisfied that what knowledge we do have is free of delusion.

Me: The sort of wisdom here though is a little different - it can destroy one's desire and ability to cooperate with the herd, as the herd is so ignorant and mad. This herd separation can result in excessive mental pain, for those who were not destined to be loners anyway.

Scott: I agree with this, although I don't really understand the last sentence.

Well, even before coming to this forum, I was the loner type – I simply do not like others enough. The QRS are also loners, and many people here have had psychological problems, which also leads to a desire for separation from others. We were already to some large degree accustomed to being an individual, to being alone, before we found the hard core rational truths here. Some people however are just chatterers, they need other people to communicate in a friendly fashion with – they are not really true loners and don’t development a deep knowledge of reality.

It's not as if by becoming wise they avoid you

I’m sure the QRS have found that they do. It just depends how much truth you throw at them.

But what can't be fixed is human nature, and that is the depressing part.

Well it can evolve to be less destructive. Still I basically agree with you – human nature will only change when it encounters a sufficient degree of suffering. It won’t change in the present world because not enough of the wealthy herd suffers, or if they do they are ignorant of alternatives. Most people are ignorant that they are unnecessarily suffering because they have become accustomed to it by the sheer weight of habit and herd expectations (for example Ozzies work more hours now than in the last 50 years). Some folks eventually realise this and opt for a seachange and retrospectively see how they were actually suffering. Others (like me) just take up bad habits like a constant need for entertainment or drugs or food or sex – all of which lead to a continuation of suffering.


Nick: I don't think anyone makes the choice to become wise.

I recall tossing this question about in my head. After about a year here, I became frightened wisdom would make me mad, if I could not emotionally handle it. I decided to stay.

Though of course my decision was caused, so the choice wasn’t really there, but we can ignore that for the sake of context.

Trevor,

How does understanding cause the suffering you claimed earlier?

Come face to face with being about as significant in this world as a speck of dust and find out for yourself. Or realize that you will die in a few years, and try to imagine what it will be like afterwards. Then think of the implications that has on your own life. Or realizing that everything you know amounts to nothing. Every friend you have can stab you in the back easily. Realize that you could just as easily do the same to someone else. Try to think of the meaning of your life....what do you want out of it? Are you striving towards what you want?

Don't side me with the other people in this thread. I'm in closer agreement with you than they, in large part due to your growing detachment from this forum. I think that is a very wise decision.

I am saying: you are correct that you have learned a lot, and have a very good understanding of reality. But you are making some minor mistakes which are due to not fully integrating your understanding with your life. This I call digestion, which takes time and little else (only that light activity which aids digestion).

Digestion...haha. There's not much to digest. It's not as if I'm grasping some concept of truth...that's not what it's like to know the truth.

A sage does not suffer because of his wisdom. He suffers because of his stupidity.

No, a sage suffers because he is alive and a human being.

Nick,

I see much potential in the human race, if only they could open their eyes to the Truth.

I see potential as well, and I see that the potential will never be reached. To be clear, the potential is that people stop believing in stupid things and start living with some common sense and decency. It's not some pipe dream of "enlightenment".

Still, at this point I'm only concerned about perfecting myself, I can't realistically expect to help someone else until I've helped myself.

Then you will help no one, because there is no one who is perfect.

Either way what's destined to happen will, our death lies in ignorance, our salvation lies in Truth.

That's very culty sounding. Our death lies in destiny, meaning that it will happen to us no matter what, and nothing will ever save us from that. Truth affords us only the understanding of this fact.

I don't think anyone makes the choice to become wise. I went through a time when I was constantly depressed because of the emptiness I saw in the lives of myself, family, friends, and all the rest of the world. I no longer had the inherent happiness I had in my childhood and teenage years, I was no longer ignorant, I became the seed of wisdom. Thank God this seed was nurtured otherwise my life would have been nothing but depressing and disapointing. So even though at times I suffer for the Truth, I would have suffered even more had I not come to know it. The Truth really did set me free.

Free from suffering? Then you're only lying to yourself. The truth only set me free from my own stupidity, not from feelings. If what happened to you is working for you, then good. Brainwashing does seem to help some people. However, it's just kind of ironic that someone who is brainwashed is talking about the truth.

The REAL truth isn't for everyone. It's certainly not for me, but it appears as if I have no choice now, since the blade has already pierced my belly.

...I want to make one thing clear: a person isn't irresponsible or bad if they choose to ignore philosophy and discussions of truth/reality. That's one thing I found out for sure, when I discovered truth/reality and true philosophy. Making people feel bad if they're not philosophical enough, or if they don't get it well enough, is just a scare tactic that some use to get people to believe in whatever it is that the speakers are selling.