GENIUS FORUMS

Leyla Shen wrote:So your argument is they had a greater loss of life then than they do now and that makes their actions in the occupied territories as well as US funding fair and justified.

I can understand their desire to minimize their own loss of life.

I don't know whether US funding is justified. It's up to the individual, or individual country, who they want to support.

That is an interesting argument, Kevin. I see no reason, on those grounds, not to promote the same solution for Palestine.

Certainly, I think Palestinians should have their own, separate land, where they can live in peace.

Perhaps the US should fund such a homeland for the Palestinians if they have enough money to throw around.

Did they just put them there to hear their incessant whining about anti-Semitism and how bad those Muslims are as the Jews proceed to blow up the place left, right and centre? What am I missing, here?

Perhaps it was just a bad decision. They do happen.

On the other hand, it might be a valuable lesson in tolerance.

This is what I think the US support of Israel is about...friendship.

Plus the Jews have been a significant minority in terms of immigrants to the US since the 1800's, far more so than Muslims or Arabs. The decendants of these jews would form a major minority lobby group.

sschaula wrote:This is what I think the US support of Israel is about...friendship. It's what all diplomacy should be about...otherwise it's just a fraudalent shaking of hands.

Wisdom is based in emotion. It doesn't deny it. Feelings that you can't help are real, despite what you try to make yourself into. A cold hearted philosopher. A relentless thinker. Wisdom laughs at you when you fool even yourself into believing such lies. Thinkers take what is and reflect upon it. They don't change it. Philosophers love the way things are. They are never cold hearted.

While I agree that there is an emotional friendship between the US and Israel - which is perfectly natural - the problem with such friendships is that they necessarily carry with them a certain amount of blindness, which can lead to serious problems.

Wisdom is based purely on truth and reason - not emotion. So the "friendships" of the wise person, the friendships of a Buddha, are not built on emotion, but on a purpose.

These are not friendships in the normal sense, since such friendships can be discarded as soon as the purpose is not being met, and without any sense of loss. There is "honour" in such friendships, but only so far as they serve the purpose. The honour is to truth rather than to any particular individual.

Wisdom doesn't deny emotion where emotion exists, but emotion always exists apart from wisdom.

Kevin,

While I agree that there is an emotional friendship between the US and Israel - which is perfectly natural - the problem with such friendships is that they necessarily carry with them a certain amount of blindness, which can lead to serious problems.

Yes, not all friendships are wise ones. I don't personally believe the one between the US and Israel is wise, seeing as how both nations are filled with unwise people.

But sometimes out of the muck, comes a shining pearl.

Wisdom is based purely on truth and reason - not emotion. So the "friendships" of the wise person, the friendships of a Buddha, are not built on emotion, but on a purpose.

I disagree...kind of. Truth and reason lead one to reality, and the awareness of reality is wisdom. Friendships of a wise person aren't calculating, but they're a natural expression of reality. Not of the means to discovering reality.

Unless that person isn't actually wise.

These are not friendships in the normal sense, since such friendships can be discarded as soon as the purpose is not being met, and without any sense of loss. There is "honour" in such friendships, but only so far as they serve the purpose. The honour is to truth rather than to any particular individual.

This is the self serving type of relationship of someone on the path to wisdom, not of a wise person. There is some honor in these relationships, since the path to wisdom is great and leading others onto it is good for them. But there's no honor in using someone as a means to an end.

The wise person naturally leads others directly to wisdom by his every action. It all stems from his consciousness of reality. The person on the path to wisdom naturally leads others directly to where he is on the path. It's all based from his unconsciousness of reality. He leads them to the path to discovering reality, rather than to reality.

Wisdom doesn't deny emotion where emotion exists, but emotion always exists apart from wisdom.

That may be so. I don't know, since I'm not there yet. But we both agree that wisdom doesn't deny emotion.

sschaula wrote:Friendships of a wise person aren't calculating, but they're a natural expression of reality. Not of the means to discovering reality.

Calculation, or reason, is a natural function of the wise person's brain. So his friendships are "calculated" in this manner. They are calculated to not transgress into error.

To the wise person a friendship is really only a temporary partnership. In the absolute sense, the wise person has this partnership with absolutely everything in the Universe. So everything is his friend.

However, we could say that a special friend of the Buddha is one who doesn't try to kill him, or who works towards the survival of wisdom.

There is no emotion in this friendship.

There is "honour" in such friendships, but only so far as they serve the purpose. The honour is to truth rather than to any particular individual.

This is the self serving type of relationship of someone on the path to wisdom, not of a wise person.

It's only self-serving in the sense that it serves Truth. And Truth is of course Everything.

For example, if a person tries to kill a Buddha, that person may not be a friend (ie, a partner in values) of the Buddha. But the Buddha still does not withdraw his helping hand.

Kevin,

I disagree with your post, and point back to my own.

Israel Attacks US

By Jerry Ghinelli

Information Clearing House 27th July 2006

The government of Israel today launched a massive air assault on suspected terrorist targets along coastal cities of the United States of America. Termed operation Just Reward II, hundreds of Israeli fighter jets streamed across the Atlantic in precise formation and fired surgical air strikes at alleged terrorist strongholds in the heavy Muslim populations of Jersey City and North Bergen, New Jersey. The jets then continued south into Elizabeth and Newark, inflicting massive destruction in the densely populated north-eastern US state.

Reaction to the attacks was swift. President Bush asked for restraint, but stated emphatically that “Israel had the right to defend itself.” The President, who took an oath to defend the US and to preserve, protect and defend it against all foreign and domestic enemies, said that the fight against suspected terrorist sites and alleged al-Qaeda involvement, coupled with our close relationship with Israel, requires special sacrifices by the American people and special exceptions to both US and international law.

Earlier in the day, the US Congress passed a unanimous resolution in both houses, backing the Jewish state. Even New Jersey Senators Frank Lautenberg and Robert Menendez voted with the 98 other US Senators, backing Israel’s right to self-defence.

Claiming there were terrorists in New Jersey who had links to al-Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as other radical Islamic groups, New York Senators Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer appeared at a UN rally just across the river from the Israeli incursion and pledged their unwavering support for Israel. “We are all Israelis now,” Senator Clinton proudly proclaimed.

The attacks were the first on American soil by a foreign country since the December 7, 1941 assault by the empire of Japan.

The American public was mainly upset and worried about what this would mean for the price of gasoline. NJ has several refineries just south of the suspected safe houses. Across the country, most Americans continued their summer vacations, unconcerned with the developments in foreign countries but quite concerned how this might impact the Dow.

Critics called the Israeli self-defence incursion an attack on the US, and anyone supporting the Israeli invasion of the United States as traitors. They were immediately dismissed as anti-Semites and soft on terrorism.

The MSNBC studios in Secaucus, NJ, just a few miles north of the attack, lost power after the air strikes knocked out the local PSE&G power plant, but stayed on the air with emergency backup generators, as news readers marvelled at the pinpoint accuracy of the strikes. They praised the Israeli air force for valuing American First Amendment rights to such an extent that they left the studio intact, so ongoing developments could be broadcast to the American people. Newly installed MSNBC president Dan Abrams, a loyal supporter of Israel, sent a telegram to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, thanking him for his restraint. Former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, then appeared on MSNBC’s “Hardball” with Chris Matthews in the damaged studios, and defended the Israeli strikes against the suspected terrorist safe houses just a few miles away. “There are no safe houses anywhere in the world when it comes to fighting the war on terror,” said Netanyahu, as the whir of the backup electrical generators could be heard in the background. Matthews stated emphatically, “That’s right.”

The regrettable death toll and collateral damage to the citizens of those stricken cities is expected to be in the hundreds or even thousands, but still below the deaths that occurred on 9/11; this demonstrated the compassion of the Israeli pilots versus the ruthless Muslim terrorists, said an obviously agitated Netanyahu. “We abhor the death of innocent Americans killed in the air strikes, but you have to lay the blame on the terrorists who are hiding in these crowded neighbourhoods,” he rationalized.

Netanyahu’s justification for the incursion relied heavily on US Vice President Richard “Dick” Cheney’s “1%” doctrine, which treats suspicions of terrorist involvement with a likelihood even as low as 1% as a certainty. “We think therefore there are,” he said philosophically.

The European Union, and Canada’s newly elected Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, also supported the Israeli incursion against the US. Both deeply regretted the loss of innocent American lives. British Prime Minister Tony Blair called the Israeli incursion just and proportionate. President Bush phoned Blair and thanked him for his support during this difficult time, and for the sweater Blair had given him on his 60th birthday.

John Bolton, the US Ambassador to the UN, noted that the American casualties from the Israeli raids were not equal to those killed in terrorist attacks, such as those that occurred here on 9/11. “There is no moral equivalence between those killed by a democratically elected government like Israel and those killed by Muslim terrorists,” Bolton emphasized.

UN General Secretary Kofi Annan also refused to criticize the Israeli actions, but suggested he mediate a cease-fire. According to those close to Annan, he offered to end all of this “shit” with a simple phone call to New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine.

The newly elected NJ Governor was harshly criticized by both the Israeli government and the Bush administration for not doing enough to rein in the suspected terrorist guerillas in his state. With tears in his eyes Corzine, the former US Senator and former top executive of Goldman Sachs, took responsibility for neglecting to investigate potential terrorist activities in his state.

Despite damage to several synagogues in the bombardment, traditional liberal Jewish American leaders remained steadfast in their defence of Israel, out of an unquestioning solidarity and blind loyalty to the Jewish state. These are many of the same Jewish Americans who passionately opposed the Vietnam War and even marched with Dr. Martin Luther King during the American civil rights struggle,

But critics of the incursion contend that the Muslims are protected by American and international law, and the strikes against the US should be construed as war crimes. US Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez stated emphatically that the war on terror supersedes all constitutional guarantees, and international law does not apply to anyone suspected of terrorism or links to Al-Qaeda, Hamas or Hezbollah.

In the UN, a Security Council resolution introduced by France, condemning the Israeli attacks on the United States, was vetoed by the United States.

Local hospitals overflowed with victims of the Israeli strikes. One of the victims is an Israeli pilot, badly injured after he bravely steered his stricken F-16 fighter jet away from a populated area and crash-landed in New York’s Central Park, so as not to endanger innocent civilians. The NY Times ran his heroic story on the front page, and NY Mayor, Michael Bloomberg, is expected to present him with the key to the city after, as expected, he makes a full recovery. His co-pilot parachuted and was kidnapped by local sympathizers. The government of Israel and the Bush administration have demanded the kidnapped pilot’s immediate release. Bush promised Olmert he would send troops to aid in the rescue of the kidnapped Israeli pilot.

But victims of the Israeli self-defence air strikes, many of whom are less than 10 miles away from where the Twin Towers once stood, are now starting to ask not “why do they hate us?”, but rather “why do we love them?”

Would not surprise me in the least. Not one bit. Today, I had the time to read a very long article about the leader of Hamas. It was interesting but does not really relate to this topic. I am not saying that I think the dude is a good dude. I can't say from reading the article but it does seem like, as prime minister of Palestine, he is interested in something other than suicide bombing. He does not promote suicide bombings nor does he believe in such tactics of martyrdom.

Faizi

I like articles that are entirely made up. It brings me into a fantasy world, where anything is possible.

Marsha,

I had the time to read a very long article about the leader of Hamas. It was interesting but does not really relate to this topic. I am not saying that I think the dude is a good dude. I can't say from reading the article but it does seem like, as prime minister of Palestine, he is interested in something other than suicide bombing. He does not promote suicide bombings nor does he believe in such tactics of martyrdom.

Yet, this is what Hamas does. They're known for suicide bombings. Their goal is to raise of flag of Allah across all of Palestine...including Israel. To do it violently.

If you think there's something intelligent there, you've fallen for the propoganda.

Speaking of propaganda, no-one fell for my "Sears Tower" bait, but I'll post this anyway:

Sears Tower Plot Video

Funny yet sad and scary.

Dear Dumb Army of Fun,

I am well aware that Hamas has sponsored suicide bombers in the past. Damn, how stupid do you think I am? I mean, that is elementary information, idiot. Can you honestly think I could post here and be that ignorant?

I am talking about the newly elected prime minister of Palestine, not the recent -- five or ten years -- history of Hamas military actions, including suicide bombings.

Haniya is opposed to suicide bombings. This is not to say that they will not happen again but it could be in Israel's best interest to refrain from assassinating Haniya as they have assassinated the last two Hamas leaders. He is willing to negotiate.

I am not one easily swayed by propaganda.

Faizi

Washington Post Story

Army of Dumb,

Their goal is to raise of flag of Allah across all of Palestine...including Israel. To do it violently.

There is no such thing as a flag of Allah. Did you say you want to go into Army intelligence? I can believe that. Maybe, you should set your goals higher and become a CIA agent.

Dude, I hate to break it to you but Palestine is Muslim.

Are you even half aware that Hamas won a majority of seats in the Palestinian parliment? Are you aware that the prime minister of Palestine is the leader of Hamas?

I am very aware that Hamas supported and trained suicide bombings against Israelis in the past. But there is a difference between being a shadow government/terrorist group and having the responsibility that goes with being head of an elected government. ELECTED GOVERNMENT.

He has said that his government is willing to recognize Israel if Israel abides by the Oslo accords and gives back the land taken from Palestinians in 1967. Israel agreed to do that but never abided by its agreement.

He has also said that he is opposed to suicide bombing. He has discouraged this.

Faizi

Dan,

I did take note of your Sears Tower bait at the time you wrote it.

I have seen the Daily Show report before.

Wonder what ever happened to those wretched people? They were so pathetic. I kind of doubt they would have known Al Qaeda if bin Laden had bitten them in the butt. They were obviously such pathetic people -- uneducated street people studying the Bible. Kind of looked like they should be living in adult homes or nursing facilities.

There have been so many terrorist threats over the dam since then that I just wonder what happened to them. I am not sure they were mentally equipped to terrorize a chicken coop. Looked a little too ate up with gonja -- just a step above the wino zone.

God bless the Daily Show for giving us a dose of reality. I wish John had his own show on CNN that was not controlled by
CNN.

Faizi

It's just his propoganda, Marsha. Actions speak louder than words. Hamas hasn't changed its tenants since being elected into power, has it?

It's simply a terrorist organization that's running a country. It's only changed its rhetoric, if anything at all.

I read that they've set up humanitarian programs. I doubt this is because they want to build up their country...it was probably for public support.

I read the article that you posted. He said, "We only want out land back." I'm gonna throw down the bullshit card on that one. Hamas only wants violence, in my opinion.

Do you really think the violence will stop if Israel is given to the Palestinians? Will they become peaceful then?

There is no such thing as a flag of Allah.

It's the Koran.

Army of Dumb,

You are very ignorant.

Faizi

Dumb Army wrote:

Do you really think the violence will stop if Israel is given to the Palestinians? Will they become peaceful then?

No one is asking for Israel to be given to the Palestinians. It is being asked to abide by the Oslo agreements. Give back the land that was taken in 1967. Israel agreed to do that in 1999.

Someone else wrote that the US could donate land to the Palestinians. I think that is a good idea. I would do it in a heartbeat. But given the prejudice against Arabs in the US, I doubt that it would float. We could put them on reservations and allow them to open casinos. That might work.

Again, there is no flag of Allah. There is no flag of the Koran.

Show me a flag of the Koran that is the official flag of a nation.

Faizi

Army wrote:

I'm gonna throw down the bullshit card on that one. Hamas only wants violence, in my opinion.

And Israel wants only peace, is that it?

You are extremely prejudiced against anyone or anything in the Middle East that is not Israeli. Jesus Christ could tell you differently and you would not believe him either. You clearly hate all Arabs and that is the end of the story. The so called Christian God -- who is no different from Allah -- could tell you that not all Arabs are murderers and not all Israelis are pure and good and you would not believe him.

The only thing that you will ever believe is your own ignorance that is no different from your shit in the toilet.

I hope that you get to go to Iraq and see things for yourself. Until she became ill, my daughter was going to join the army. It does not take that long. You take the test and you sign on the dotted line and you are out of here in about three weeks.

You have been hanging around here for more than a year claiming that you will be off for training but you have to wait.

I will throw down the bullshit card on that one. My guess is that you have a mental problem. Otherwise, you could have been to Iraq and back by now. I know. I have been talking to an army recruiter and a navy recruiter. If you wanted to go and were qualified to go, you would have gone. Given your timetable, there would be no American soldiers in Iraq. In the army, medics are cannon fodder. Dime a dozen -- hell, cheaper than that.

You must be a full blown nut if they won't even take you in the army.

Army of fun, my ass.

I doubt that you are even qualified to be a suicide bomber.

Faizi

Marsha,

I have to applaud you for your great insults. :-) Congratulations.

No one is asking for Israel to be given to the Palestinians. It is being asked to abide by the Oslo agreements. Give back the land that was taken in 1967. Israel agreed to do that in 1999.

I don't personally believe that's all they want. I think their main objective is to spread Islam across the globe. My question was, if they took all of Israel, would they stop the violence? Or I could reword it for you...if Israel gave back the land took in '67, would Hamas stop whining and fighting?

Personally, I doubt it. But I have no proof of that...it's just an educated guess.

Someone else wrote that the US could donate land to the Palestinians. I think that is a good idea. I would do it in a heartbeat. But given the prejudice against Arabs in the US, I doubt that it would float. We could put them on reservations and allow them to open casinos. That might work.

What land would the US give? Puerto Rico? The US doesn't own Israel.

Again, there is no flag of Allah. There is no flag of the Koran.

Show me a flag of the Koran that is the official flag of a nation.

Notice the "Dome of the Rock" in that image, which is the flag of Hamas. It's a famous Islamic temple in Jerusalem. I wonder what it means!

And Israel wants only peace, is that it?

I don't know. They don't have a stated goal of bringing Judaism into the far reaches of the world.

You are extremely prejudiced against anyone or anything in the Middle East that is not Israeli.

Definitely not true.

Jesus Christ could tell you differently and you would not believe him either.

Would that change it?

You clearly hate all Arabs and that is the end of the story.

Actually, you read the entire story wrong. I don't hate all Arabs. I don't even really hate terrorists. I can see the world from their point of view. It's just that their point of view is skewed and dangerous to everyone else.

The so called Christian God -- who is no different from Allah --

Try telling that to fundamentalist Muslims. Why do they think it's necessary to kill all infidels (which include Christians and Jews) when the god is the same? Look...I KNOW that the God is the same. I've studied the history of the three religions in college. It all stems from the Old Testament. Judaism is the pure form. Christianity is where the messiah comes and changes everything. Islam is a rejection of that messiah, and an acceptance of another who comes later.

But the three religions are not the same at all. They're separate...especially when one of them is trying to destroy the other two. Same god my ass, Marsha.

could tell you that not all Arabs are murderers and not all Israelis are pure and good and you would not believe him.

Would I be a good philosopher if I automatically did?

The only thing that you will ever believe is your own ignorance that is no different from your shit in the toilet.

I will believe whatever's rational.

I hope that you get to go to Iraq and see things for yourself.

I probably will. We aren't leaving for at least another year or two.

Until she became ill, my daughter was going to join the army. It does not take that long. You take the test and you sign on the dotted line and you are out of here in about three weeks.

I had a plantar's wart, and they held me back for 4 months after I had taken the oath. Then I went to BCT and AIT for 6 months. I came back home in November. In December, the unit I was attached to asked if I wanted to deploy and be attached to a random unit. I said no. They asked again, and I said no. Contrary to what you may think, I don't agree with what the commanders are doing over there. I don't think it's necessary for there to be so many soldiers. The only way to win this war is to get undercover SF soldiers into the population. What the majority of soldiers are doing over there now is guarding trucks full of cheesecakes, that will be transported to other soldiers who are guarding trucks full of gross meatloaf, which will feed the first soldiers. It's retarded.

And people are dying for that. My unit just got back from Iraq, and on their last mission someone died from an IED attack.

You have been hanging around here for more than a year claiming that you will be off for training but you have to wait.

I am done training. I am waiting now.

I will throw down the bullshit card on that one. My guess is that you have a mental problem. Otherwise, you could have been to Iraq and back by now. I know. I have been talking to an army recruiter and a navy recruiter. If you wanted to go and were qualified to go, you would have gone. Given your timetable, there would be no American soldiers in Iraq. In the army, medics are cannon fodder. Dime a dozen -- hell, cheaper than that.

If you really care, ask those recruiter friends of yours to look me up on AKO. They will find me.

Medics aren't cannon fodder anymore. They're the most prized possession of any unit. Most of the interactions between soldiers and Iraqis is giving them medical aid. That does more for changing hearts and minds than anything else.

Units don't work with a dozen medics. They have 3 at most on the line. If those three die, then the rest are bound to die. But if those three are alive, then the rest will be saved (if the medics remember their training).

They aren't simply for carrying litters anymore, Marsha. They do needle chest decompressions, suturing, and anything else the PA of the unit will let them do. Chest tubes...amputations...

They're more valuable in the field than a Paramedic is on duty.

You must be a full blown nut if they won't even take you in the army.

Like I said, have your buddies look me up.

Army of fun, my ass.

I doubt that you are even qualified to be a suicide bomber.

I'm not. Those guys have combat experience. They live their entire lives in the war zone. I don't underestimate their training.

Kevin,

L: So your argument is they had a greater loss of life then than they do now and that makes their actions in the occupied territories as well as US funding fair and justified.

K: I can understand their desire to minimize their own loss of life.

I don't know whether US funding is justified. It's up to the individual, or individual country, who they want to support.

I will take it, then, that you can also understand the Palestinian desire to minimise their own loss of life; in the name of freedom, of course.

As you indicate later on in this post, the only justification would be one grounded in reason; “friendships” grounded in truth and not beyond. That’s a very lofty goal, I know, but when it comes down to it, and amongst the indignant cries against Muslim fundamentalism and killing in the name of it, the Jews are doing exactly the same thing.

If you were to say that the US/Israel relationship is such a relationship, then there would be no problem -- no conflict to solve. Unless, of course, you are a Zionist wanting to claim back the Promised Land that the Roman Empire kicked you out of so many years ago.

Again, why is a Jew’s life so precious? Why is it truthful to keep blowing up these Palestinians, both in the occupied territories and as refugees in Southern Lebanon?

If you took Israel out of the occupied territories, one of two things would happen with the rest of the surrounding nations, including Hezbollah, who came into existence after Syria was ousted from Lebanon: not having the Palestinian plight as a reason to attack Israel, things would either stop or they would continue -- continue with the right target zeroed in on. No Palestinian refugees in Southern Lebanon, no problem. But, of course, we can’t do that, can we?

The only reason any terrorist group is any type of match for the West -- warranting no less than a whole hundred-year-and-beyond war on “terror” -- is because the West is stupid. That very notion is a complete admission of that fact. A blanket excuse for ignorance.

K: Certainly, I think Palestinians should have their own, separate land, where they can live in peace.

Yes, that’s what the UN seems to think, as well.

K: Perhaps the US should fund such a homeland for the Palestinians if they have enough money to throw around.

I’m sure they could share it equally between the European and Arab Jews and the Arab Christians and Muslims (aka Palestinians).

L: Did they just put them there to hear their incessant whining about anti-Semitism and how bad those Muslims are as the Jews proceed to blow up the place left, right and centre? What am I missing, here?

K: Perhaps it was just a bad decision. They do happen.

Of course it was a bad decision! The fact is that the allied forces made conflicting promises of land to the very nations currently at war in the area. But that’s no reason to perpetuate it.

K: On the other hand, it might be a valuable lesson in tolerance.

Well, if we’re talking about degrees of truth……hell, anything goes, then, eh?

.

Leyla wrote:And Israel wants only peace, is that it?

Scott wrote:I don't know. They don't have a stated goal of bringing Judaism into the far reaches of the world.

In some ways Judaism already is, or tries to stay - at the center of everything. When the world would stop paying attention to it, soon it will disappear into the night and not necessarily in a violent way.

There are many levels to this.

But lets just see how Israel's 'Zionist' policies are dragging the whole world with them: they let the United States 'copycat' their invention in Iraq called: 'perpetual occupied terrortories'. Now Israel demands the UN or NATO to start patrolling Lebanon and 'disarming' Hezbollah. Knowing full well that they'll drag them into their ugly war since Hezbollah won't take orders from the UN just as they don't take it from Israel.

And that's what they wanted isn't it? That's why many militant Zionists were celebrating 9/11, because now finally the US 'knew' what it meant to suffer from suicide terror. They're one of us now, newspapers were heading in Israel. It's therefore very interesting to hear about the false intelligence leading to the invasion of Iraq came from people connected to Likud, Zionists and strong supporters of Israel within the neo-conservative group. Or at least, that's what is known so far.

I'm not gonna link to 'evidence' although there's plenty to go around. The main point is rarely spoken, but weird enough very directly stated by orthodox as well as mainstream Judaism:

In fact, the very Torah which tells we are a chosen people – chosen to be a “light unto the nations” – also tells us that if we don’t obey His will we will be subject to terrible calamities. Ask Moses

Maybe the Greeks were chosen for their unique contributions to art and philosophy, the Romans for their pioneering services in law and government, the British for bringing parliamentary rule into the world, and the Americans for piloting democracy in a pluralistic society. The Jews were chosen by God to be 'peculiar unto Me' as the pioneers of religion and morality; that was and is their national purpose. - orthodox rabbi Immanuel Jakobovits

This kind of thinking should be abolished because it's the geopolitical version of the utter delusional thought: that of specialness, self-serving morality, that of Ego, that of attachment.

I believe that just like Christianity was born out of Judaism, with all its grave delusions, the state of Israel is born out of the Western arrogance, its twisted morality and its Savior complex. It's also getting harder to see the difference between the US and Israel is this regard. It's the same Hollywood production these days.

Wiping out of this orthodox Judaism that still feeds the heart of the Western mindset will not work; suppression only makes it stronger. It has to be ignored and not be supported nor opposed. Like all illusions it will melt away quickly with the normal progress of Nature. Which the forces of terrorism are as well, but they are more of the suffering kind.

Leyla Shen wrote:I will take it, then, that you can also understand the Palestinian desire to minimise their own loss of life

The way I see it, the Israelis are more in the role of defenders rather than attackers. It's just that they do pre-emptive strikes when provoked, which can make it look like they are aggressors.

The Israeli grab of the occupied territories was probably a mistake. I think they did it more for defensive reasons than for reasons of expansion. Occupying those territories would cost them a lot more economically than they would gain from them. But not knowing exactly how precarious their defensive position is, I can't accurately judge the defensive value of the occupied territories.

I don't think there would be any loss of Palestinian lives if the attacks on Israel stopped. Israel wouldn't go bombing Palestinians just for fun, despite what the journalists want us to believe.

That’s a very lofty goal, I know, but when it comes down to it, and amongst the indignant cries against Muslim fundamentalism and killing in the name of it, the Jews are doing exactly the same thing.

Both sides are fighting for what they believe is their land, more than anything else. Religion just fuels the fire.

If you were to say that the US/Israel relationship is such a relationship, then there would be no problem -- no conflict to solve.

Their friendship is a normal deluded friendship. Both parties are as blind as a bat.

Unless, of course, you are a Zionist wanting to claim back the Promised Land that the Roman Empire kicked you out of so many years ago.

I think Jewish people simply identify with other Jewish people, and would like to have their own homeland. I don't think it's any more sinister than that.

Again, why is a Jew’s life so precious?

They are no more precious than the Palestinians.

Perhaps you mean, why do Palestians have to move to make room for Israelis?

And the answer is, because the United Nations decided it so. They can change their mind if they want to, but it's probably too late by now.

. . . not having the Palestinian plight as a reason to attack Israel

The Palestinians want all of their land back - the whole of Israel. So until they have that, I don't see an end to the conflict.

Also, there are many Arabs living in Israel proper that do not accept the state of Israel.

Solway:

Both sides are fighting for what they believe is their land, more than anything else. Religion just fuels the fire.

Finally, someone's understood.

That deluded belief systems is the root cause.

The Human design feature that has it 'grasping' a Script and hanging on for dear Life...and even a Script that generates constant Sorrow...

It's Hilarious.

The Tao, in it's infinite wisdom, includes for us other possibilities...it is possible to have Scripts that generate happiness.

Realising our True Nature reveals that there are no such 'things' as Jews, Arabs, Yanks, Brits, Aussies, Pakis, Russkis...

These artificial divisions are merely 'theatrical devices'...roles in a drama...

It looks like Tragedy but it really does have a Comedic element to it...at least to this Observer...

It's empty and meaningless...

frank

It looks like Tragedy but it really does have a Comedic element to it...at least to this Observer...

It's empty and meaningless...

Not if it leads to a situation where Muslim countries get public support "as a right" so to speak to obtain nuclear weapons. Pakistan is bad enough - at some time in the next 20 years there will be great trouble in this country and who knows what they'll do.

but otherwise it is a comedy.

jamesh:

Not if it leads to a situation where Muslim countries get public support "as a right" so to speak to obtain nuclear weapons. Pakistan is bad enough - at some time in the next 20 years there will be great trouble in this country and who knows what they'll do.

but otherwise it is a comedy.

There was never any guarantees that Human Being would persist on this Planet or the Universe...it's only ever a Possibility.

...for Human to largely be responsible for it's own demise thru' deluded Memes is ridiculously funny...but there it is.

Imagine a Flea getting on to a Dog and proclaiming 'This is My Dog'....

Crazy....but that's what Human's do...and they think Fleas are stupid...hahaha...

It's Hilarious.

frank

Kevin wrote:

Their friendship is a normal deluded friendship. Both parties are as blind as a bat.

That's right. And, frankly, I trust no blind man to see at all, let alone to see clearly, on anything including matters of attacker/defender. Therefore, there is no reason in truth to support Israel as "defending" itself any more than to support the Palestinians on the same grounds.

Funny that the US should have been surprised about the attack on the USS Liberty by Israel. You know what they say, love is blind.

.