Human Action

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Ataraxia
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Re: Human Action

Post by Ataraxia »

DHodges wrote:I would argue that socialist governments that have actually occured have not suffered from some flaw or misunderstandng that turned them into dictatorships (e.g., USSR, China), but that was the entire point of Marxism. Marxism is a trick played on the working class. That is what I mean by him being a shill.
You might also find Henry George's work interesting D. Hodges.


Although both advocated worker's rights, Henry George and Karl Marx were antagonists. Marx saw the Single Tax platform as a step backwards from the transition to communism.[5] On his part, Henry George predicted that if Marx's ideas were tried the likely result would be a dictatorship.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George
Leyla Shen
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Re: Human Action

Post by Leyla Shen »

Hi, Dave:

I am in the process of addressing this:
L: So, my question to you here would be, what, in your understanding of this man's critique of Marx, is his argument against historical materialism.

D: I think the term "historical materialism" can be meant in more than one way.

In the way Mises is saying that Marx is using it here, historical materialism means that a man's thoughts are entirely determined by his social class. He then gives several reasons why this can not be true (extending into the section after the one I quoted here).
I've mulled it over a couple of times and decided that I have no coherent idea what you mean by your last two sentences. To what, for instance, does the "here" in the first sentence refer, wikipedia or the book you're reading, and; to whom does the "He" at the beginning of the last sentence refer, Mises or Marx?
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DHodges
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Re: Human Action

Post by DHodges »

Leyla Shen wrote:
In the way Mises is saying that Marx is using it here, historical materialism means that a man's thoughts are entirely determined by his social class. He then gives several reasons why this can not be true (extending into the section after the one I quoted here).
I've mulled it over a couple of times and decided that I have no coherent idea what you mean by your last two sentences. To what, for instance, does the "here" in the first sentence refer, wikipedia or the book you're reading, and; to whom does the "He" at the beginning of the last sentence refer, Mises or Marx?
This was referring to Mises, not wikipedia. "He" referred to Mises. I was laying out what I think Mises is saying about Marx (and historical materialism as Marx uses the term), in Chapter 3 of Human Action.
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Re: Human Action

Post by Leyla Shen »

OK, got it now. Thanks for clarifying.

But, Dave, the idea that historical materialism is limited to “a man’s thought is entirely determined by his social class” is symptomatic of the essential meaning and impulse for historical materialism in the first place!

And so, I still see nothing but straw men being shot up in flames. One shouldn't be so enthusiastic as to miss the obvious and clearly stated.

In Marx’s own words, (and your wiki link):
If Russia is tending to become a capitalist nation after the example of the Western European countries, and during the last years she has been taking a lot of trouble in this direction - she will not succeed without having first transformed a good part of her peasants into proletarians; and after that, once taken to the bosom of the capitalist regime, she will experience its pitiless laws like other profane peoples. That is all. But that is not enough for my critic. He feels himself obliged to metamorphose my historical sketch of the genesis of capitalism in Western Europe into an historico-philosophic theory of the marche generale imposed by fate upon every people, whatever the historic circumstances in which it finds itself, in order that it may ultimately arrive at the form of economy which will ensure, together with the greatest expansion of the productive powers of social labour, the most complete development of man. But I beg his pardon. (He is both honouring and shaming me too much.)"
One has to understand that the categories “proletariat” and “bourgeois” comprise socio-political sub-categories of the manifest distinction between “materialist” and “idealist” respectively. (I have found, and still find, they have not at all been understood in that way. One may live, for example, in bourgeois conditions himself, yet remain a proletarian, complete with concomitant social dissatisfactions/disorders, depending on-- . . . [10pts for the first person to fill in the blanks])

The understanding that historical materialism means that a man’s thoughts are “entirely determined by” his social class is necessarily wrong, therefore.

From Engels:
Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, indeed, but with a false consciousness. The real motives impelling him remain unknown to him, otherwise it would not be an ideological process at all. Hence he imagines false or apparent motives. Because it is a process of thought he derives both its form and its content from pure thought, either his own or that of his predecessors. He works with mere thought material which he accepts without examination as the product of thought, he does not investigate further for a more remote process independent of thought; indeed its origin seems obvious to him, because as all action is produced through the medium of thought it also appears to him to be ultimately based upon thought. The ideologist who deals with history (history is here simply meant to comprise all the spheres – political, juridical, philosophical, theological-belonging to society and not only to nature), the ideologist dealing with history then, possesses in every sphere of science material which has formed itself independently out of the thought of previous generations and has gone through an independent series of developments in the brains of these successive generations. True, external facts belonging to its own or other spheres may have exercised a co-determining influence on this development, but the tacit pre-supposition is that these facts themselves are also only the fruits of a process of thought, and so we still remain within that realm of pure thought which has successfully digested the hardest facts.

It is above all this appearance of an independent history of state constitutions, of systems of law, of ideological conceptions in every separate domain, which dazzles most people. If Luther and Calvin “overcome” the official Catholic religion, or Hegel “overcomes” Fichte and Kant, or if the constitutional Montesquieu is indirectly “overcome” by Rousseau with his “Social Contract,” each of these events remains within the sphere of theology, philosophy or political science, represents a stage in the history of these particular spheres of thought and never passes outside the sphere of thought. And since the bourgeois illusion of the eternity and the finality of capitalist production has been added as well, even the victory of the physiocrats and Adam Smith over the mercantilists is accounted as a sheer victory of thought; not as the reflection in thought of changed economic facts but as the finally achieved correct understanding of actual conditions subsisting always and everywhere – in fact if Richard Coeurde-lion and Philip Augustus had introduced free trade instead of getting mixed up in the crusades we should have been spared five hundred years of misery and stupidity.
[laughs] I love that last line.
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Tomas
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Re: Human Action

Post by Tomas »

.


Leyla Shen - I think I failed to mention that there is a fucking awesome beauty to Marx when one understands him properly... :)

-tomas-
Since arriving at Genius Forums and reading the doctrines of Solway, Quinn and Rowden - what struck me was their "adherence" to Marxist thought - the Oz women especially Leyla, Kelly & Ataraxia, seem to kowtow (draw near to) and defend Marxism with all its obvious flaws.

Then there is Rhett, fondly recalling his 'rent subsidy' from The State to fall from the sky into his outstretched claws. Oh my, how he "misses" the freebie, that sweaty-wad of money!

But then, after pondering this for some time, perhaps a couple months, it dawned on me that Australia is being transferred to a super-socialist state (commie, if you will), as America had become in/about the 1850s or so, with the advent of the Whigs Party.

And Abe Lincoln, the first black president, paying his visit to the Bankers of Boston, where they propped him up with a top hat and a cigar, aid, 'do this, do that'. (Much the same as the Rockefeller-Chase-Manhattan bankers are doing with Barack Obama)

However, what strikes me most, is how so many of you Aussies all want (and are on) this 'disability pension' from The State? It's like you-all claim there is not a God watching over us - but the God of Nature - but are unwilling, or unable to see that your God is a State Creation of welfarism, which you all seem to defend in a most-righteous way because it is watching over you.

You seem to be on a baby-pacifer, and the State is your Shepherd and you shall not want.

On my many visits to Australia over the years, mostly on political junkets, I now can reflect back on how your country is being transformed to a communist enclave (and the assorted claptrap mouthing) that goes with the territory.

Oh well,


Peace Up

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Leyla Shen
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Re: Human Action

Post by Leyla Shen »

Remarkable.

No matter how much thinking one puts in front of the religionist form of the ideologist, all he can do, out of his fear and incomprehension, is to further steadfastly latch onto and proclaim the virtues of some formless, panacean dogmatism from the rooftops.

Anyone who manages to shake the unconscious foundations of his henid-driven ideology are themselves altogether another formless idea; a gaping black hole consuming everything in sight.

Having no substance to himself, no character, he lacks the ability---the thought, the action---to deal with substance and character; to discern the subtleties.

He is left necessarily in the useless hands of a clearly impotent God, in whose heart he holds a special place. Not like “the rest of us commies.”

Gotta have a friend in Jesus, so you know that when you die . . . [dances and clicks her fingers on the way out]
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Tomas
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Re: Human Action

Post by Tomas »

-Leyla Shen-
Remarkable.

-tomas-
We try harder.




-the commie-
No matter how much thinking one puts in front of the religionist form of the ideologist, all he can do, out of his fear and incomprehension, is to further steadfastly latch onto and proclaim the virtues of some formless, panacean dogmatism from the rooftops.

-tomas-
Yes, please apply your boot to the neck of the Aborigine.




-the commie-
Anyone who manages to shake the unconscious foundations of his henid-driven ideology are themselves altogether another formless idea; a gaping black hole consuming everything in sight.

-tomas-
Still living in your science fiction-driven world of Marx.




-the commie-
Having no substance to himself, no character, he lacks the ability---the thought, the action---to deal with substance and character; to discern the subtleties.

-tomas-
You are 150 years past Marx, be real.




-the commie-
He is left necessarily in the useless hands of a clearly impotent God, in whose heart he holds a special place. Not like “the rest of us commies.”

-tomas-
I understand, your God is the Aussie dollar.




-the commie resorts to imagery-
Gotta have a friend in Jesus, so you know that when you die . . . [dances and clicks her fingers on the way out][/quote]

-tomas-
The unconscious woman dances and snaps her fingers in a most pre-programmed way. Marx wouldda been proud to see how far this feminine-woman has come. His Rabbi father is spinning in his grave. Abe's Ethiopian momma ain't spinnin' though, just muttering, 'I told you so'. And, 'Hang some more of those Sioux savages. Then, with the aid of your marxist brethren, write the Emancipation Proclamation to cover for your war crime of butchering the Red Man. Those whitey covet Minnesota and Iowa. We'll push those savages to the Dakota's'.


Peace Up



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Ataraxia
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Re: Human Action

Post by Ataraxia »

Tomas wrote:.

-tomas-
Since arriving at Genius Forums and reading the doctrines of Solway, Quinn and Rowden - what struck me was their "adherence" to Marxist thought - the Oz women especially Leyla, Kelly & Ataraxia, seem to kowtow (draw near to) and defend Marxism with all its obvious flaws.
Sir,I think you have me confused with someone else.In my political/economic interested days I was a fan of the likes of Hayek,Mises and Friedman.

I have little or no time for the ideas of Marx.

In fact I'm wondering when his 'late capitalism' is going to manifest.It appears to be going in the opposite direction.The proletariate are becoming private-buisness people.

BTW I've never drawn a cent from 'the State'
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Tomas
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Re: Human Action

Post by Tomas »

Ataraxia wrote:
Tomas wrote:.

-tomas-
Since arriving at Genius Forums and reading the doctrines of Solway, Quinn and Rowden - what struck me was their "adherence" to Marxist thought - the Oz women especially Leyla, Kelly & Ataraxia, seem to kowtow (draw near to) and defend Marxism with all its obvious flaws.
Sir,I think you have me confused with someone else.In my political/economic interested days I was a fan of the likes of Hayek, Mises and Friedman.

I have little or no time for the ideas of Marx.

In fact I'm wondering when his 'late capitalism' is going to manifest.It appears to be going in the opposite direction.The proletariate are becoming private-buisness people.

BTW I've never drawn a cent from 'the State'

Ataraxia,

I apologize.

PS - Are we referring to Milton Freidman?



Peace Up



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Shahrazad
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Re: Human Action

Post by Shahrazad »

I thought ataraxia was a boy.
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Tomas
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Re: Human Action

Post by Tomas »

Shahrazad wrote:I thought ataraxia was a boy.
People hide behind their language, their name, their avatar (vanity plate).

I meant to say Prince (princess prancer), not Ataraxia.

Dunno even what 'ataraxia' means much less remember how to s-p-e-l-l..

I've a difficult time with people I see on a day-to-day basis, you know, the 'familiar strangers'.

It's the argument that Barack Obama, the lawyer, is gonna solve the problem, ya right. The guy was a coke head and bi-sexual.

His sidekick, Joe Biden, a lawyer, is another guy who can't tell the truth when he ran back in 1988. Plagarized some politician from Britain way.

Same with John McCain, son of an admiral, hothead who killed a bunch of troops on the Kitty Hawk, Forrestal, sent off to bomb the old men, women with children. Shot down and eventually given an apartment with two 15-year-old prostitutes to keep him company. Got out in 1973, cheated on his wife, refused to see his children. Wife divorced him and he eventually ran into a beer-heiress who eventually stole pain-killersbecause she couldn't control her pain. Oh boo-hoo!

Now we have Sarah Palin to drag through the prison and let all the pundits have a field day with her family and background. Raised a Catholic but her parents converted to holy-rollers or so we're led to believe..

PS - Her sister is married to a good-old North Dakota boy.


I dunno Shah, we're all pixels on a screen...



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Ataraxia
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Re: Human Action

Post by Ataraxia »

Tomas wrote:

Ataraxia,

I apologize.

PS - Are we referring to Milton Freidman?
.
No problem.Yes Milton
Leyla Shen
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Re: Human Action

Post by Leyla Shen »

Aw, how sweet.

Well, clearly, you have both demonstrated an incredible understanding of Marx, as the content of the last couple of posts demonstrates. And here I was thinking all that was there was emotional bluster...
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DHodges
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Re: Human Action

Post by DHodges »

Leyla Shen wrote:One has to understand that the categories “proletariat” and “bourgeois” comprise socio-political sub-categories of the manifest distinction between “materialist” and “idealist” respectively. (I have found, and still find, they have not at all been understood in that way.
I've been thinking about it, but I still don't understand what you are getting at here.
Leyla Shen
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Re: Human Action

Post by Leyla Shen »

Marx is, and always has been, saying that it is philosophy that will transform society. But, what does he think philosophy is?

In many, if not all, of his early philosophical writings, he speaks of philosophy as the practice (praxis) of exposing theoretical contradictions. And, yes, he holds that thought leads to action.

From his 1841 doctoral dissertation:
Inasmuch as philosophy as will turns toward the world of appearances, the [philosophical] system is reduced to an abstract totality and thus becomes one side of the world confronted by another side. Its relation to the world is a reflexive relation. Caught up in the drive to realise itself it comes into tension with everything else. Its inner self-sufficiency and rounded completeness is destroyed. What was an inner light becomes a consuming flame, turned outward. We thus arrive at the consequence that the world’s becoming philosophical is at the same time philosophy’s becoming worldly, that the realisation of philosophy is at the same time its loss, that what it struggles against outside is its own inner defect, that it is precisely in this struggle that it falls into the defects which it fights in its opponents, and that it can transcend these defects only by falling victim to them. That which opposes philosophy and that which philosophy struggles against is always the same thing as philosophy, only with the factors reversed.
So, how does one transform a society if the majority of it is kept in the philosophical dark by virtue of the internal contradictions within a theoretical system, as is the case with a uneducated proletariat in the system of capital (questions of “will” and “intent” notwithstanding), and does not to stand its ground? Such a thing is impossibly, of course! One has to conclude that the idea is not, indeed, to transform this society at all. And, again, the implication of this is what, if not that man is himself inherently dumb, or evil? Largely unconscious, I, of course, accept. What else could speak accurately to the existing state of affairs?

This question, investigated thoroughly, and a Marx read accordingly, I think reveals all there is to know about him.

He points with this to the internal contradiction of capitalist thought against an actual state of affairs (and precisely to what he means by socialism)—the contradiction exposed by way of incongruence between the rational (true) and the existing (material) state of affairs. In that way he is a materialist. And, here too, is where one must be reminded not to be confused by the fact that where he speaks in all his writings in specific socio-political terms, he speaks of a particular mid-late 1800s Germany. One hint of this would be his paper, a response to Bruno Bauer, “On the Jewish Question.” This question is, of course, a different question today.

In this way, the materialist and the idealist must become one—the proletariat, the bourgeoisie and the bourgeoisie the proletariat. Once this occurs, you will not, necessarily and by definition, have class, a "bourgeoisie," but socialism itself.

Only in that way can society transform; but never under capitalism because capitalism literally, theoretically, actually, needs a proletariat.
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tek0
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Re: Human Action

Post by tek0 »

Are humans inherently bent on stupidity?


I really doubt it since most people in this world are so out of the loop when it comes to resources and privileges that the parents are unable to do enough to help them learn properly.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ild+genius

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ild+genius

Is our children learning?
Only if you were lucky sperm or one hell of a fighter
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