Sapius wrote:
Sue: Yes, things definitely do exist – but of course the boundaries between things are illusionary.
Doesn’t that then make A=A illusory. I don’t see how the appearance and disappearance of a certain thing removes definable identity of a thing in and of any given moment? If the boundaries are illusionary, then all we experience as A=A is an illusion, so is our logic since it is based on that, isn’t it? Are you saying all our philosophy is based in and of illusions?
Yes - everything is illusionary. Even this thought that everything is illusionary is illusionary – this, we can be certain of. This doesn’t mean that we stop doing philosophy – far from it. Understanding these truths so as to become free from delusions is why we do philosophy.
Sue: Are you suggesting the boundaries we place on things mean that things really are “separated†– that a thing has meaning and exists independently from everything else?
No, they are not REALLY "separated" in the sense you mean, but thay are not one and the same thing either. And what has identity of an individual thing, A=A, against all that it is not, got to do with its dependency on other things that it is not, and vice versa for THEIR existence in any given causal moment?
Let me put it this way… everything exists in its causes, but does that make EVERY-THING one and the same THING as you claimed earlier?
Please define ‘mind’. Much of our discussion depends on it.
We think of the mind conventionally as being the seat of awareness, intellect, memory and thought - but we know that the ‘mind’ is without a beginning or an end; exists in its causes; has no inherent existence; and is a mental construct. Being a mental construct like everything else, means that we cannot separate the thought “mind†from ‘mind’. Nor can we separate any other thing and mind. So when I think of, for example, a goat, I know that the ‘thing’ that I think is thinking of a goat - ‘mind’- and the thing I’m thinking of - ‘goat’, are really one and the same thing. They are both mental constructs that have no existence other than as mental constructs. Even these mental constructs have no real existence outside their causes. There is no mind, nor goat existing independently.
Sue: We cannot know for sure whether or not things exist outside our minds as separate objects, as all we have is the appearance of things. What we can be sure of is that the thing that appears to us is real, and it exists, for the time that it appears to us. When we no longer observe it: that is, when it no longer appears to us – it no longer exists.
We have had this discussion before, and as earlier I wrote up the same response, but I thought it was useless, so please define ‘appearances’, and ‘exists’ in the above context.
‘Appearance’: awareness of a thing.
‘Exists’: awareness of a thing.
Rewriting my paragraph above using these definitions -
We cannot go outside our minds, so we are unable to become aware of any thing that may, or may not be out there. All we have is this awareness of things. What we can be sure of is that the things we are aware of are real, because we are aware them. When we are no longer aware of a thing, we are no longer aware of it.
It is not coincidental that these two terms have the same meaning – because for a thing to exist we first have to become aware of it. And since all we have is awareness of things (the appearance of things) we can correctly say that the existence of a thing and the appearance of a thing arise simultaneously. It can’t occur any other way.
Sue: Appearances are all we have to work with. This means that a cat is a cat, because it has the appearance of ‘cat’, and not the appearance of another thing. For the appearance of a cat to arise, the causes for ‘cat’ first have to be in place. So therefore ‘cat’ exists in its causes.
I think that will be clearer when you tell me what you really mean by “appearanceâ€. However, what have the causes that bring forth a cat got to do with what it EXACTLY “appears†to be? Are you suggesting that it could be any other thing than what you define it to be? You are sure that it appears, but you are not sure that it is a cat?
Becoming aware of a thing and identifying it happens simultaneously. A cat is a ‘cat’ because we are able to identify it as such – that is, it has enough characteristics of ‘cat’ for us to call it that. It might turn out later to be a small fluffy dog with long whiskers, but in that moment when it appeared to be cat, that is what it was.
Sue: Can you describe how you imagine “separate causally created individual things†interact?
Through causal recognition, differentiation and reaction. A=A. If there were no definable boundaries between things, there would be no logic to speak of.
We are aware that there are boundaries between things, but those boundaries are not separated from the thing that we have become aware of. A thing and its boundaries arise at the same time out of their causes. So the fact to remember here is that boundaries are also caused.
Hence, not only the illusory nature of things, but their existing identifiable nature in any given causally created moment is also absolutely true.
Yes.
Hence things exist exactly as they are, irrelevant of their non-inherent nature.
No. Cause and effect is the only creating force, therefore things cannot exist in this universe, or any other universe you can imagine, with inherent natures.
The motion, flux, in and of causality give things an illusory side, but things are not an illusion in any given causal moment of the NOW.
Cause and effect don’t just “give†things an “illusionary side†– things are illusionary because they are nothing more than empty shells that arise and fall away in every moment. They have no real substance, no real objectivity – they are in essence ‘nothing’.
Both of these aspects make existence a single logical coin, which means, “seeing things from both sidesâ€, without turning the coin around.
There are no two sides to creation. Things are real in the moment we perceive them, but that doesn’t mean we are experiencing the thing itself – for there is no ‘thing in itself’. Every thing arises anew to the world every moment of everyday. No thing is exactly the same in any given moment.
What you are trying to do, Sapius, is create boundaries where there are none. All boundaries are illusionary – so just let go of them.
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Sue
