Dependent Origination

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Beingof1
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Beingof1 »

Diebert:
You claimed consciousness would happily run on without any senses, without actual signals to process, brother. All I do is questioning that claim.
Do you ever dream?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_tank
And you are suggesting consciousness is hanging somewhere in the universe in some disembodied, uncaused state? Some inherent being? Or that's what it sounds like. Why is it so important for you to have something absolutely existing in the first place? It sounds like a religious version of ego worship to me.
Consciousness does not exist. But how would you know that all the while desperately trying to prove me wrong rather than unstopping your ears momentarily to listen. That is the point I have been trying to get to with this board for years.Consciousness does not exist - it transcends existence. It is uncaused and that is exactly why it does not exist.

The attachment however to thoughts, is stubborn beyond belief.
Beingof1
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Beingof1 »

This bears repeating from Cahoot:
Thoughts and consciousness are distinct in that consciousness is separable from thought, but thought is not separable from consciousness.

Consciousness without thought expands awareness in ways that do not require thought or gross sensory input. After a spontaneous first occurrence it happens more often, and during anytime throughout the day night cycle during what was the often unawakened spaces of no-thought between thought. Consciousness is more subtle than thought and inclusive of thought, and thought easily crowds out consciousness for attention, the way an illuminated road sign crowds out the shades of darkness beyond, even in memory.

But in the absence of thoughts, with attention of awareness upon subtle consciousness, in varying situations, reality is apparent prior to conceptualization. For instance, during the formal yoga meditation of pratyahara – dharana - dhyana – samadhi, with attention disconnected from the senses and disconnected from functioning in the world of form, and afterwards when formed as jnana, reality is apparent prior to conceptualization.

Most are not able to silence the mind long enough from its internal dialogue to know the reality of this experience. Noisy is the brain ;)


Seeker:
The ignorant and deluded practice no-thought.
That is not what he said - look again.

Try not to be so easily swayed with emotional trigger words.
Beingof1
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Beingof1 »

David:
It should be clear from the analysis I have presented that the concept of the Totality does not really refer to the three-dimensional physical universe imagined by most people to objectively exist. Rather, it refers to the totality of all appearances experienced by consciousness. Included in this larger totality is indeed the three-dimensional physical universe, but it is only one of countless other appearances. There is not a single appearance which can lay claim to being ultimate or objective reality. Whether it be an appearance of the physical universe itself, or an appearance of an inner mystical realm, each appearance exists only in the moment of our perceiving it and nowhere else. As soon as it ceases being perceived, it ceases to exist. Each appearance is but a charade of the moment and none of them ever reflect the true nature of Reality.

The Totality, then, is entirely formless. Or if you like, its form embraces the infinity of appearances. Or even more accurately, its form is whatever happens to be perceived in any given moment. In the moment that I conclude that the Totality is formless, or the infinity of appearances, it too is nothing more than a momentary perception on my part. To project anything more onto this perception, or to cling to it as though it were the final truth, would be to fall into delusion. In the end, the Totality is simply what it is in any given moment - end of story.

We can now go a step further and affirm that objective reality does indeed exist - in the moment of our perception of it. If, in any given moment, the observable universe appears to be objectively real, then that is exactly what it is. And if in the next moment, it no longer appears to be objectively real, then that too is exactly what it is. The observable universe is entirely a product of the moment and lacks any kind of form or existence outside of this.
Beautifully written, penetrating insight and this is truth.

The challenge is - you will contradict everything you have said in these three paragraphs further down in your post.
The same is true of what is "out there" beyond the mind, and indeed of the mind itself. Both the mind and what lies beyond the mind are only real to the degree that they exist as an appearance. Understanding this point is important because it enables one to transcend to an even higher perspective, taking one beyond consciousness, as it were, to the very threshold of enlightenment itself. One is now but a finger snap away from opening the wisdom eye and seeing directly into the secret of creation.
You keep asserting that the mind is an appearence. I have asked you, where does it appear?

Are you ever going to answer?
B1:
1- How can the mind perceiving this "larger set" known as the ALL be a subset of its own perception?
2- Could you tell us where the perceptual bubble ends?
3- Who is perceiving another entity as a set intersection?
4- How can a perception discover truth?


David:
You have to learn to go beyond this whole perceiver/perception duality. Such a duality might be useful for practical purposes, but it breaks down when you look into the matter more deeply.
That is only what I have been saying for like eight years now. Role reversal?

It is not I that keeps affirming we are only our thoughts/perceptions - its you. Now you want to assert there is no perceiver.
David said in Chptr. 6:
each appearance exists only in the moment of our perceiving it and nowhere else


You even gave an example of how you could not perceive an object(the monitor) and that implied "perceiver/perception duality." This is cognative dissonance at its apex.

Can you not see the contradiction? Your entire structure is built on finite perception and -not/finite perception all at the same time.
What we call the "perceiver" is really just an abstraction created by thought. It is a momentary add-on that the mind creates whenever it starts labeling its experiences as “perceptions" and attempts to analyze them in a metaphysical manner.
What you are leaving out of the equation, is regardless we label a "perceiver" (you spelled it out in the three paragraphs from Chpt. 6) perceptions are experienced. It does not matter whether we label a "perceiver" or not - perceptions are.

This is just verbal gymnastics to avoid the hard problem. Eliminate the "perceiver" and you still result in perception and so - you have avoided the question again all the while maintaining your position that there is a perceiver.
People easily fool themselves by the term “consciousness", and by the phrase “everyone is conscious”. It creates the illusion that consciousness is identically the same in everyone, that it is a kind of detached, unchanging, intangible field which is distinct from perceptions, that everyone possesses this unchanging, intangible field in equal measure. In reality, consciousness is continually changing as each experience arises. It differs moment-by-moment within the same individual, and it differs from individual to individual.
You contradicted what you said above:
It should be clear from the analysis I have presented that the concept of the Totality does not really refer to the three-dimensional physical universe imagined by most people to objectively exist. Rather, it refers to the totality of all appearances experienced by consciousness.

And:
There is not a single appearance which can lay claim to being ultimate or objective reality. Whether it be an appearance of the physical universe itself, or an appearance of an inner mystical realm, each appearance exists only in the moment of our perceiving it and nowhere else.
-- snipped
Now you want the universe to witch gears and be concrete again. Which is it?

Consciousness does not change - it does not grow - it does not become more. You are confusing memory/thought with consciousness, which is the source of thought. It has always been the same looking at the changing world. Your experience and memory have expanded - the perceiver has remained the same.

Come up hither David Quinn.You have penetrated into reality further than 99 % of the human race and just one more small step.
It is a bit like what happens when we switch on a light. It is easy to fall into the habit of thinking that “light" is an unchanging phenomenon which is the same wherever it is present, but in reality no two light bulbs are ever the same, no two photons are ever the same, and no two streams of photons (flowing from the lightbulb into the room) are ever the same. Every instance of light flowing into a room is unique to that moment. In the same way, every instance of consciousness is different and unique unto itself.
Certainly the experience of reality and thought is in a state of flux. The perception of it remains. The only constant in the universe is change. The only constant in the realm of perception is perception itself without change.

These are the two components of reality.
Just as there is no such thing as an detached, unchanging David Quinn who goes through life as a static object, likewise there is no such thing as a detached, unchanging consciousness.
Who or what has always perceived David going through life?

What is seeing the universe or the body or thought/memory - what is perceiving? Who or what is thinking?
And yet the fact remains that my universe will always be beyond your consciousness, and your universe will always be beyond mine. No amount of flowery discourse in pseudo-physics will ever change that fact.

Your consciousness is limited. Mine too. Why deny the obvious?
You are not speaking to me? I am not in your universe? where am I then?

It is obvious you just wrote a post to me, am I not in your universe?
Enlightenment involves seeing into the true nature of everything, which is the same everywhere. This is a fantastic spiritual attainment and can be considered a form of omniscience, but it doesn’t involve becoming aware of every single detail of everything that exists.
Exactly.

In that case, why do you make that a case test question?
In other words, while I already understand the fundamental nature of your monitor, it is unlikely that I will ever be able to come over to your house and observe your monitor directly. Not that it matters to my enlightenment either way.
Once you know one thing - you know everything.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Beingof1 wrote:
The ignorant and deluded practice no-thought.
That is not what he said - look again.

"no-thought" requires discrimination of appearances. This particular aspect of experience is not present- I can see clearly now..

This expanding of awareness referred to isn't dependent upon or brought about by the absence of thought, it is about varying degrees of awareness of the true nature of these things, attention which cahoot rightly alludes to with his metaphor.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Beingof1 wrote:Diebert:
You claimed consciousness would happily run on without any senses, without actual signals to process, brother. All I do is questioning that claim.
Do you ever dream?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_tank
Dreams do not change the issue at all! It only shows what we call senses seem to be perceptions based on some creative piecing together of memories, no matter the source of their activation.

If you actually read the links to wikipedia (you clearly didn't) you would read about how people in some clinical experiments after 15 minutes got "psychosis-like experiences', described as "the brain misidentifying the source of what it is currently experiencing". Now scroll back and see me writing: "try it for a few hours or more and come back to tell about what you experienced".

From all the experiments it's clear that brain activity can become more creative and freed up when external senses are diminished to a minimum for a while. But that's because we still have signals, all kind of memory processing, planning and mental activity bouncing around. They still will cause consciousness but without any external link the chance on confusions and becoming desynchronized with our habitat increases.

Consciousness does not exist. But how would you know that all the while desperately trying to prove me wrong rather than unstopping your ears momentarily to listen. That is the point I have been trying to get to with this board for years. Consciousness does not exist - it transcends existence. It is uncaused and that is exactly why it does not exist.
The difference is that consciousness doesn't inherently exist because as phenomenon it's also caused. Like everything else. But you're giving it some special status: material things and existences are this way, consciousness is that way. There's no need for that because every specialty you can bestow on consciousness, you could bestow on other things, a god, a brain, a sense, a memory, a reflection, a thought, etc.
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Kunga
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Kunga »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:
Kunga wrote:Just because there is no one in the forest perceiving the trees, doesn't mean the trees aren't existing and growing there.
You keep saying "there", they are "out there" growing.

No doubt you believe there to be an infinitely wide universe "out there", not recognizing the infinite is a reference to that which you experience and know each day -the passing of appearances arising and fading from the void, beside which nothing exists.

"Tree" =reference to an impermanent wavering appearance, similar to a dream or imagination, arising momentarily.

Every experiment, every natural scenic route, every friend, all wavering appearances arising in 'fields of awareness', as some like to call it.


I see no problem with The Infinite manifesting as phenomena.
["appearances arising and fading from the void, beside which nothing exists".]

Humans are not the only sentient beings perceiving on this Earth.
This Earth was here long before there were sentient beings to perceive it.

There is nothing separate [Dependent Origination].

Impermanence is dependent on Infinity .
But Infinity is a conceptual Time construct.

Thinking/conceptualizing is duality.

The more we think....we realize the thinker is a stinker......lol
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Dennis Mahar »

The more we think....we realize the thinker is a stinker......lol
It's fun watching it though eh?
It's really about generating primitive little protection rackets for guarding being,
in order to survive :)
making assessments, accessing options and out of that making selected moves that look capable of winning.
Will to power.
Ring master.

Mostly what is lost is the simple fact of being, the joy of being.
Somehow being gets locked up in the tower of an impregnable Citadel heavily guarded by an overzealous strategising control freak.
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Kunga
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Mostly what is lost is the simple fact of being, the joy of being.
Well...we wouldn't [be] here, if not for our protective instincts to survive, so we can realize the "joy of being" :)
When your protective instincts are taken away from you, you are a slave, and there is no joy in being when you are forced to submit to the will of another, holding you prisoner.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Ok.
bullshit.
pull the other leg.
Beingof1
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Beingof1 »

Diebert:
Dreams do not change the issue at all! It only shows what we call senses seem to be perceptions based on some creative piecing together of memories, no matter the source of their activation.
Are you dreaming by and through the five senses? The five senses are the issue.
If you actually read the links to wikipedia (you clearly didn't) you would read about how people in some clinical experiments after 15 minutes got "psychosis-like experiences', described as "the brain misidentifying the source of what it is currently experiencing". Now scroll back and see me writing: "try it for a few hours or more and come back to tell about what you experienced".
Diebert said:
You claimed consciousness would happily run on without any senses, without actual signals to process, brother. All I do is questioning that claim.
This is the issue Diebert. How you can become sidetracked so easily is a puzzle.

The issue is not the results of sensory deprivation - the issue is - now try not to get sidetracked - whether consciousness IS without the five senses.

Do you have it yet?

I did read the Wiki article. Most cannot be alone. Why would it be a mystery that they would become unbalanced with sensory deprivation? Most would go batty in solitary confinement. To many demons to battle.

You should try the tank, I am sure they have one in Holland somewhere - its a trip.
From all the experiments it's clear that brain activity can become more creative and freed up when external senses are diminished to a minimum for a while. But that's because we still have signals, all kind of memory processing, planning and mental activity bouncing around. They still will cause consciousness but without any external link the chance on confusions and becoming desynchronized with our habitat increases.
You are still so missing the point. The point is not the results of sensory deprivation - the issue is whether you are still experience consciousness without the five senses.

There is that thing again that keeps you from understanding anything I say. Its the "beingofone has gotta be wrong at all cost."
B1: Consciousness does not exist. But how would you know that all the while desperately trying to prove me wrong rather than unstopping your ears momentarily to listen. That is the point I have been trying to get to with this board for years. Consciousness does not exist - it transcends existence. It is uncaused and that is exactly why it does not exist.



Diebert: The difference is that consciousness doesn't inherently exist because as phenomenon it's also caused. Like everything else. But you're giving it some special status: material things and existences are this way, consciousness is that way. There's no need for that because every specialty you can bestow on consciousness, you could bestow on other things, a god, a brain, a sense, a memory, a reflection, a thought, etc.
You are still not seeing the stunningly obvious.

Lets try again - all things appear to consciousness without exception. Consciousness itself does not appear - anywhere - at anytime - under any circumstances.

Consciousness does not appear as a thought, a thing or a concept. You can think about consciousness but that thought is contained itself within consciousness - add infinity. You can see consciousness animating a physical body. The physical body that is animated by consciousness itself appears within consciousness. You can have a concept about consciousness and that concept itself appears within consciousness. You can perceive the universe and the appearance of the universe itself is within consciousness.

I mean - how hard is this to see? It is the obvious.
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Kunga
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Ok.
bullshit.
pull the other leg.

Why do you say that ?

You have no idea what [in reference to], I am specifically thinking about that was the cause of my statement.
I wasn't referring to "me", but of others that have suffered horribly under those conditions.
Our survival instincts are vital in this world. When our will is taken away by those that want to control us,
slavery is the result.
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Dennis Mahar »

You can only do slavery by agreement.
dependent arising.
WTF are you talkin' about?
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Kunga
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:You can only do slavery by agreement.
dependent arising.
WTF are you talkin' about?
No.

Slaves do not agree to be slaves,
if you think that is the case, you don't know WTF you are talking about.

There is the will/power of some to in-slave others, by taking away their will/ power.
Dependent Arising isn't always pretty and joyous.
Causes and conditions also mean being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Dennis Mahar »

You do not understand emptiness.
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Kunga
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:You do not understand emptiness.
You do not understand "The Middle Way".
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Whatever the condition.

You provide the meaning (affectivity) (significance).
Meaning maker.

it's empty and meaningless that it's empty and meaningless.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Beingof1 wrote:
Diebert wrote:Dreams do not change the issue at all! It only shows what we call senses seem to be perceptions based on some creative piecing together of memories, no matter the source of their activation.
Are you dreaming by and through the five senses? The five senses are the issue.
Well, stimuli are stimuli. You do see and hear things in your dreams? That's what for me senses mean but if you want to create (rather confusing ) distinctions between senses and sensory systems, then we'd be missing the point, wouldn't we?
The issue is not the results of sensory deprivation - the issue is - now try not to get sidetracked - whether consciousness IS without the five senses.
Well, the answer is that there's no reason to believe that our mind and whatever consciousness happening would last very long without any complex sensation or information happening. It's unimportant to me if sensing happens "inside" the body or "outside". The experiments suggest that after a while isolation will cause confusion and at some point even death (as we cannot exist in a vacuum, in a non-exchanging situation for long, which is a major clue about life and being).
Lets try again - all things appear to consciousness without exception. Consciousness itself does not appear - anywhere - at anytime - under any circumstances.
But you just made it appear by realizing that "all things appear to consciousness". That's called self-reflection. It's the beauty of consciousness that it can be conscious of its own functioning. It can do feedback that way!
You can think about consciousness but that thought is contained itself within consciousness - add infinity.
Exactly. Although not everyone thinks as deeply about it.
You can see consciousness animating a physical body. The physical body that is animated by consciousness itself appears within consciousness. You can have a concept about consciousness and that concept itself appears within consciousness. You can perceive the universe and the appearance of the universe itself is within consciousness.
How can it be "within" a consciousness? It's not a container of some kind, is it? This perception of subject and object, the self-perception, is the very description of consciousness. No need for superfluous extras. Like some self-made gods!
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Kunga
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:You do not understand emptiness.
I think I do understand it....but I don't like it.
I don't like violence. I don't want violence to happen.
I don't like a lot of things .
I also love many things .

I can't accept the horrors in this world,
yet I know without the bad there can be no good.
Yeah...duality is a bitch.

To close my eyes and think it's all "empty and meaningless",
doesn't work for me,
I'm still an unenlightened idealist and romantic.
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Well honey,
you can take the 'weight of the world' on your shoulders and walk about with it because you're so great and plenty tough.
I'll be handing out Awards for 'drama queen of the year' shortly and you're a frontrunner :)
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Kunga
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Kunga »

No honey,
That would go to you,
with your almost 3,000 posts
of empty and meaningless mind blowing wisdom/dharma.

:)
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Dennis Mahar »

When you look at sheet of paper,

can you 'see':

climate, cloud, sunlight, soil, seed, tree, logger, chainsaw, timber mill, trucks, paper manufacturing factory, retailer.

Can you see dependent arising?
inter-being?

Can you see this fundamental emptiness?

Can you see formlessness and form streaming endlessly?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Dennis Mahar wrote: It's fun watching it though eh?
It's really about generating primitive little protection rackets for guarding being,

Creating that sense of egotism, which most obviously manifests itself when emotions run rampant-Kunga. Or with display pics all of a sudden followed by- my life is pitiful. No doubt simply writing this will cause offended emotion, outlining the point.
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Creating that sense of egotism, which most obviously manifests itself when emotions run rampant-Kunga. Or with display pics all of a sudden followed by- my life is pitiful. No doubt simply writing this will cause offended emotion, outlining the point.
That takes the cake for 'drama queen of the decade' seeker.
Take a bow.

Better not to insist on blemishes, what's the point of that,
that's just driving the protection racket deeper and deeper to no avail,
psychological harm.
What do you reckon?
Better to call into being the possibility of enlightenment in the person.
It's there.
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

What you're saying is true and not true, yes it creates more defence, but it is also necessary to be aware of delusion/suffering, aka, first noble truth is that diagnosis. I do agree that actually telling someone who's not quiet there yet either leads to defence and anger or even a loathing of self-quality such as "I'm so horrible and unlikeable", but there is the possibility for recognition and contemplation.


Don't you think it unlikely to recognize true nature while still caught up in desire and vanity?
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Kunga said 'where she's at'.

preference and aversion...

investigate that.

she said on emptiness:
I think I do understand it....but I don't like it.
what's that about?

what is born in that,
given any thought/feeling is several places removed from unborn/buddha mind.
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