Crucifixion

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:34 pm

But how does anyone "give" anything "inherent existence"? This is done through some form of desire. It's made real because reality is desired.

Pay attention!

I said the problem is giving the object inherent existence.

the tendency to impute.

until the stranglehold of the conceptualising mind is snapped,
until nothingness or emptiness is realised,
until non-conceptual understanding is experienced,
until then reality is misunderstood.

surely you've recognised that Diebert.
what are you arguing about?

anyone can put love in a sentence and parade it around.
what's new?

Pam Seeback · Post by **Pam Seeback** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:15 am

When the self is dead, what arises from subjective consciousness are visions of Self. Poetry often speaks this language of the subjective-objective Self, a love poem to "Me":

When grace comes, run to her heart!
She has water from the pitcher of God
to pour into your body. ~ Pam

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:31 am

Dennis Mahar wrote: until the stranglehold of the conceptualising mind is snapped,
until nothingness or emptiness is realised,
until non-conceptual understanding is experienced,
until then reality is misunderstood.

If it was only so simple:

to just escape the punctuation of concept
going for the experience of some super-understanding
understanding a-new a reality

The stranglehold does not lie in the mind, it's only perpetuated there, lost in the mazes of concept. But the maze is not the cause. We get lost in desires, most of all the desire to be real, desire to make it real, to grasp to whatever concept or non-concept arises or offers itself to be realized. It's a thirst, a primal reflex grown out of our own complexity.

Think of the deeper meanings of desire:

wanting to attach to and witness experience: idea, feeling, concept
wanting to "be" in the sense of identifying with experience, idea, feeling, concept
wanting" no existence", desiring nothingness, to exterminate, to dissociate from experience, ideas, feelings and concepts.

Do you still desire to maintain no-concept, no-thing? Perhaps that's really only desire reversed, a trick of the tail.

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:58 am

if you give an object inherent existence attachment or aversion arises.
plain and simple,
if you know it's empty, what is the point of attaching?

ultimately it's empty and meaningless.

that doesn't mean samsara ends.

until samsara ends it's possible to get through it unscathed,

any phenomena, internal or external is known to lack real existence,
is empty of real existence.

if you give it inherent existence and go for it as if there is something 'at stake',
it slips thru' your fingers.

Boo's,
insistence and clamour concerning 1 being,
his something at stake,
his attachment.

the circuit breaker on that is:

'not one, not two'.

let's see if it sinks in.

if you are going to give love inherent existence it's going to break down.
if you give love as a possibility for existence,
and argue that causally it delivers a better life,
and it does show up that way,
then the possibility for it is worth enrolling in as a curriculum.
it's then an ethical/political situation.

it's on the 'to do' list of 'in order to's' for the ultimate sake of,
it's possibility.

Cahoot · Post by **Cahoot** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:48 pm

Beingof1 wrote:Cahoot:
A balancing act. The weight of the counterweight determines the weight of the weighed. Once balanced, timing critically determines the size of the counterweight.

How about ... Muslim.

Which side of the fulcrum?
Muslim is definitely a bad word. Unless you want to use it to undermine the Abrahamic religions.Then, and only then, it is a good word. You have to be careful though because bad words can be very sneaky. We replace bad words with good words every chance we get.

Enlightenment is being able to tell good words from bad words. Just look at Diebert`s post. He knows that if you are enlightened, you do not use bad words anymore.

If you are truly enlightened, you burn all competing books that contain bad words. These bad words in these bad books lead to ego. It is best to be attached to the good words in the good books. The good books about Buddha say so. This is what is meant by the eightfold path. You extinguish all bad words from your vocabulary and only use good words. You practice using only good words until the four noble truths are revealed. The four truths contain no bad words only good words. Notice that the teachings of the Buddha only talks about compassion (a good word) but not love(a bad word).

Wisdom says so and this leads to enlightenment. Every sage in the history of mankind would agree with burning bad books with bad words in them to keep people attached to the good words.

That's like, smile and the world smiles with you.

A lot of the time simply saying the way it is does not imply a denunciation of the way it is, though I suppose that any repulsion derived from hearing the way it is could be chalked up to deficiencies in skillful presentation, skillful in the sense of skillful means, the marriage of wisdom and compassion. In theory, a sage offers a presentation skillful enough to fill out deficiencies in hearing.

Hear the words
unspoken but thought
conflicting into energy
when is ain't should be

Hear the words
unthought but spoken
as thoughtless as a dove coo
softly from a safe one
a baby, a sleepy woman

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:30 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:if you give an object inherent existence attachment or aversion arises.
Plain and simple, if you know it's empty, what is the point of attaching?

But such knowledge won't stop the thirst. Knowledge remains a second-hand affair. It's the attachment or aversion which implies (gives rise to) any idea of inherent existence or even its rejection. But most people couldn't tell you if they think something is inherently existing or an illusion. Most people wouldn't care about such distinction. The thirst is first! At least the intellectual journey might divert it briefly and a search for truth is born. Which means the crystallized results of any delusional stand in life can be examined more closely. The object in existence remains then an object of study, a relative result of action but not the cause of anything.

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:36 pm

You're right.
emptiness isn't about absolute truth or anything like that.

Beingof1 · Post by **Beingof1** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:55 pm

Dennis:

Boo's,
insistence and clamour concerning 1 being,
his something at stake,
his attachment.

the circuit breaker on that is:

'not one, not two'.

let's see if it sinks in.

Lets see if this sinks in.

According to your mantra, there is nothing and no one posting, attaching, insisting, clamoring, concerned and has nothing at stake. Did that make a dent?

Don`t worry, there is no one here.

You have one half the truth and you think that is all there is. You are so missing the point by light years.

Cahoot:

That's like, smile and the world smiles with you.

A lot of the time simply saying the way it is does not imply a denunciation of the way it is, though I suppose that any repulsion derived from hearing the way it is could be chalked up to deficiencies in skillful presentation, skillful in the sense of skillful means, the marriage of wisdom and compassion.

The robot in the head that pretends to be a sage must be unplugged first. It is like talking to someone who is engrossed in a TV program. Unless the TV is turned off, they will not hear a word you say.

In theory, a sage offers a presentation skillful enough to fill out deficiencies in hearing.

Unless the listener completely ignores what you say, recycles another discussion from their memory and proceeds to debate a ghost. If I put both my fingers in my ears and stick out my tongue, how much do you think I will hear of what you say?

Hear the words
unspoken but thought
conflicting into energy
when is ain't should be

Hear the words
unthought but spoken
as thoughtless as a dove coo
softly from a safe one
a baby, a sleepy woman

In person this is very effective. On the internet, good luck with that.

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:15 pm

You have one half the truth and you think that is all there is. You are so missing the point by light years.

I said emptiness is not the absolute truth.
It's the truth of phenomena, that no phenomena exists from it's own side.

emptiness doesn't appear to be sufficient for many people,
they are still discontented and keep looking.

You don't know the absolute truth Boo.
you may have a theory.
quit bullshitting.

Beingof1 · Post by **Beingof1** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:45 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:
You have one half the truth and you think that is all there is. You are so missing the point by light years.
I said emptiness is not the absolute truth.
It's the truth of phenomena, that no phenomena exists from it's own side.

emptiness doesn't appear to be sufficient for many people,
they are still discontented and keep looking.

You don't know the absolute truth Boo.
you may have a theory.
quit bullshitting.

I am done being nice with you as you cannot seem to get beyond the who long enough to get to the what.

Did you get that dense one?

Let me repeat because you almost never process what someone says to you.

YOU NEED TO GET BEYOND THE WHO TO THE WHAT.

Did you get that? I doubt it, but let me try again because in my experience you almost never get anything any one else says until it is repeated at least three times and even then it is a crap shoot.

Get beyond the who to get to the what to get to the why. I added an extra dynamic. That may have been a mistake because you barely process a single sentence from someone you perceive as 'not getting it'.

Now; once you are done making pronouncements before you know what the hell you are talking about - try asking questions instead of making assumptions. I double dog dare you to ask questions in good faith. I doubt if you will do that because you know that would require you to answer my questions and you never - never - never - answer my questions. I answer all - and I mean all - your questions but you still make asinine statements like the one above.

Cahoot · Post by **Cahoot** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:08 pm

Beingof1 wrote:Dennis:
Boo's,
insistence and clamour concerning 1 being,
his something at stake,
his attachment.

the circuit breaker on that is:

'not one, not two'.

let's see if it sinks in.
Lets see if this sinks in.

According to your mantra, there is nothing and no one posting, attaching, insisting, clamoring, concerned and has nothing at stake. Did that make a dent?

Don`t worry, there is no one here.

You have one half the truth and you think that is all there is. You are so missing the point by light years.

Cahoot:
That's like, smile and the world smiles with you.

A lot of the time simply saying the way it is does not imply a denunciation of the way it is, though I suppose that any repulsion derived from hearing the way it is could be chalked up to deficiencies in skillful presentation, skillful in the sense of skillful means, the marriage of wisdom and compassion.
The robot in the head that pretends to be a sage must be unplugged first. It is like talking to someone who is engrossed in a TV program. Unless the TV is turned off, they will not hear a word you say.

In theory, a sage offers a presentation skillful enough to fill out deficiencies in hearing.
Unless the listener completely ignores what you say, recycles another discussion from their memory and proceeds to debate a ghost. If I put both my fingers in my ears and stick out my tongue, how much do you think I will hear of what you say?

Hear the words
unspoken but thought
conflicting into energy
when is ain't should be

Hear the words
unthought but spoken
as thoughtless as a dove coo
softly from a safe one
a baby, a sleepy woman
In person this is very effective. On the internet, good luck with that.

You would see the haw haw haw with your eyes and piece the message together with your mind.

Beingof1 · Post by **Beingof1** » Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:38 am

Cahoot:

You would see the haw haw haw with your eyes and piece the message together with your mind.

The one who listens is the one who speaks.

Cahoot · Post by **Cahoot** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:08 pm

Okay ...

Six is arbitrary and can be an absolute limitation.

Listen, hear one speaking through all.
or
Listen, hear one speaking through one.

Which is clearer?

"Try to leave out the part that readers tend to skip."
- Elmore Leonard, Rule #10.

Pam Seeback · Post by **Pam Seeback** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:42 am

What is being missed here is the "Crucifixion."

As long a man hangs on his cross of his sentient-circle-bullshit of "I know the reason why", love of one's objective awareness is his comforter.

Of knowing always what is false and true
The Comforter of the senses
Comes to you.
~ Pam

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." ~ John 10:9 [Note to Dennis: whether Jesus walked the earth or not, the words attributed to his tongue speak the truth, no more or less than those of the Buddha whose physical presence also cannot be proven or disproven].

Cahoot · Post by **Cahoot** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:02 am

movingalways wrote:What is being missed here is the "Crucifixion."

As long a man hangs on his cross of his sentient-circle-bullshit of "I know the reason why", love of one's objective awareness is his comforter.

Of knowing always what is false and true
The Comforter of the senses
Comes to you.
~ Pam

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." ~ John 10:9 [Note to Dennis: whether Jesus walked the earth or not, the words attributed to his tongue speak the truth, no more or less than those of the Buddha whose physical presence also cannot be proven or disproven].

Crucifixion quenches the thirst of martyrdom.

Pam Seeback · Post by **Pam Seeback** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:13 am

Cahoot wrote:
movingalways wrote:What is being missed here is the "Crucifixion."

As long a man hangs on his cross of his sentient-circle-bullshit of "I know the reason why", love of one's objective awareness is his comforter.

Of knowing always what is false and true
The Comforter of the senses
Comes to you.
~ Pam

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." ~ John 10:9 [Note to Dennis: whether Jesus walked the earth or not, the words attributed to his tongue speak the truth, no more or less than those of the Buddha whose physical presence also cannot be proven or disproven].
Crucifixion quenches the thirst of martyrdom.

Cahoot, you are being literal, crucifixion of one's belief they know why has nothing to do with martyrdom and everything to do with the inner path of spiritual perfection.

Going beyond the metaphor, it is simply the way of ending all attachment to images of the eye of consciousness.

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:25 am

[Note to Dennis: whether Jesus walked the earth or not, the words attributed to his tongue speak the truth, no more or less than those of the Buddha whose physical presence also cannot be proven or disproven].

The origins of Christianity aren't down to a little group of humble fishermen on the shores of Galilee.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are fictional.
Their gospels were written by Flavius Josephus and his cronies.

To the Jews, Heaven meant residence in the Davidic Kingdom, a cultural utopia.
The establishment of the Davidic Kingdom, the coming of a Messiah who was a Warrior or warlike in nature was mooted.

To counteract this War archetype that motivated the Jews,
The Romans constructed the Prince of Peace archetypal Jesus.

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." ~ John 10:9

That could well mean the Door to Rome.

The whole scam was a ruse to quell the Jewish rebellion.
The previous Caesar family, the Julians nearly busted Rome's finances with their military campaigns, another approach was needed.

The Flavian Caesar Vespasian gave himself the status of 'deity',
his son Titus then became the Son of God.
That's where that came from.

The first Pope was a member of the Flavian household along with the first couple of Christian Saints.

Cahoot · Post by **Cahoot** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:34 am

movingalways wrote:
Cahoot wrote:
movingalways wrote:What is being missed here is the "Crucifixion."

As long a man hangs on his cross of his sentient-circle-bullshit of "I know the reason why", love of one's objective awareness is his comforter.

Of knowing always what is false and true
The Comforter of the senses
Comes to you.
~ Pam

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." ~ John 10:9 [Note to Dennis: whether Jesus walked the earth or not, the words attributed to his tongue speak the truth, no more or less than those of the Buddha whose physical presence also cannot be proven or disproven].
Crucifixion quenches the thirst of martyrdom.
Cahoot, you are being literal, crucifixion of one's belief they know why has nothing to do with martyrdom and everything to do with the inner path of spiritual perfection.

Going beyond the metaphor, it is simply the way of ending all attachment to images of the eye of consciousness.

The crucified no longer know thirst.

(Fits the metaphor, the literal, the beyond.)

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:52 am

Universe is relational to human being.
For us there is no place outside the human mind.
what exists is not objective existence, rather it is existence relational to human being.

each of us is both the archetype of peace and the archetype of war.
it's the machinery.
Pam,
if you or your own were threatened you would fight back irrespective of whether for the most part you preferred peace.
You fight for your beliefs on this forum constantly.

George Harrison and his wife Olivia meditated, practiced love, peace and harmony, developed that archetype,
when that guy broke into their home and began stabbing George, George fought back and Olivia whacked the guy with a fire poker, subduing him.
Both George and Olivia were astonished by their reaction in the situation.

It is what it is.

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:17 am

Boo,

Now; once you are done making pronouncements before you know what the hell you are talking about - try asking questions instead of making assumptions. I double dog dare you to ask questions in good faith. I doubt if you will do that because you know that would require you to answer my questions and you never - never - never - answer my questions. I answer all - and I mean all - your questions but you still make asinine statements like the one above.

Your answer is 'consciousness' as the what.
The 'consciousness' model.
Consciousness downloading an individual experience into an individual brain which is a receiver.

why?

The thing about the consciousness model is that consciousness can't be explained because we are on this side of the field and consciousness is on the other side of the field.

Cahoot · Post by **Cahoot** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:46 pm

Poor son, martyring his father's crucifixion.

Beingof1 · Post by **Beingof1** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:56 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:Boo,

Now; once you are done making pronouncements before you know what the hell you are talking about - try asking questions instead of making assumptions. I double dog dare you to ask questions in good faith. I doubt if you will do that because you know that would require you to answer my questions and you never - never - never - answer my questions. I answer all - and I mean all - your questions but you still make asinine statements like the one above.
Your answer is 'consciousness' as the what.
The 'consciousness' model.
Consciousness downloading an individual experience into an individual brain which is a receiver.

why?

The thing about the consciousness model is that consciousness can't be explained because we are on this side of the field and consciousness is on the other side of the field.

Why?

It is the only existence you can know and it is the unknowable that transcends existence. If you would bother to take the time to look inside of your consciousness you would finally realize it is as vast as the universe and is infinite in its dimension.

If it is all you will ever experience - you best learn to love it.

Beingof1 · Post by **Beingof1** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:57 pm

Cahoot wrote:Poor son, martyring his father's crucifixion.

Poor ignorance that makes the claim to know everything.

Cahoot · Post by **Cahoot** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:08 am

Crucifixion transforms living truth into martyrdom.

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:18 am

It is the only existence you can know and it is the unknowable that transcends existence. If you would bother to take the time to look inside of your consciousness you would finally realize it is as vast as the universe and is infinite in its dimension.

If it is all you will ever experience - you best learn to love it.

I see, you can't explain consciousness. Duly noted.

as an aside,
a South African told me,
when the white missionaries came with their bible,
the africans had the land and the missionaries had the bible,
the africans closed their eyes,
and when they opened them,
the missionaries had the land and the africans had the bible.

that is what christianity is about.

GENIUS FORUMS

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