GENIUS FORUMS

Ryan wrote:

Kelly: As Second Life shows, people are deeply enthralled with the idea underlying scientific materialism, that there is a mysterious divine fingerprint underlying the "Universe". Logic just flies out the window.

Ryan: How does Second life illustrate this Kelly?

Because post-modernism and scientific materialism have the same core truth (though they'd both dispute they have any core truth). Namely, everything is mysterious, and one day we'll find out the origins to everything (or at least enjoy the journey and find out interesting things). Second Life doesn't state "This is a post-modernist and scientifically materialist thing", however, it is the product of mainstream society, which is.

You haven't even gone into the game to explore the circles of ignorance and degrees of intelligence, do you always make a habit of making crude generalizations about things that you have no direct experience in yourself?

But i have had direct experience in Second Life. I've read blurbs, articles, seen a television documentary on it, and joined. So far, there's no sign of life.

The only reason i'd get broadband is to watch youtube videos or create a gateway in Second Life to the Genius Forum. Since the forum has no interactive animations, why should i bother? I know, "it's fun to explore a pretty computer game that demands one spends money that one won't get back".

I think i'll wait.



Ryan, have you had direct experience of the terms and conditions? Surely that would have given you some hesitation about joining?

do you always make a habit of making crude generalizations about things

Frequently. That's how the defining process works. This also saves me $12.76/month plus costs of switching to broadband.



Crude generalisations about Second Life:

- couldn't choose my own name, ie. Kelly Jones. Had to choose a surname from their list. Why?

- important statistics: how many people have joined up, how much money has been spent, how much money traded on the stock exchange, how many people online.

- avatars are characterless, politically correct, boring, and show no sign of genetic diversity, ie. life. Skipped it.

- From Terms of Service:

# bald hypocrisy of Linden Lab:
It states that it "generally does not regulate the content of communications between users or users' interactions with the Service. As a result, Linden Lab has very limited control, if any, over the quality, safety, morality, legality, truthfulness or accuracy of various aspects of the Service."

and yet very definitely LL controls economic communication in the service:

"Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion."

and

"You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right"

Bullshit!



#You don't get your money back, so your currency isn't a currency at all. It's more like a subscription:

"Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab."

and

"There will be no refunds for any unused time on a subscription or any prepaid fees for any portion of the Service."

Obviously, it means "spend it or lose it". Say you've invested $10,000? :

"In the event that Linden Lab suspends or terminates your Account or this Agreement, you understand and agree that you shall receive no refund or exchange for any unused time on a subscription, any license or subscription fees, any content or data associated with your Account, or for anything else."

Gone!



#It claims that the environment changes, but doesn't say that you have any control over the posted prices and billing policies. Only Linden Lab does.



#It claims it has no control over legality or truthfulness, yet

"Linden Lab reserves all rights to vigorously pursue legal action against all persons who misrepresent personal information or are otherwise untruthful about their identity, and to suspend or cancel Accounts registered with inaccurate or incomplete information."

Lucre-chasing hypocrites.



#The interaction between teenagers (13-17) and adults (18+) is definitely controlled. Why? No reason given, but obviously to exploit the kids. Adults are forbidden from accessing the Teen area under the penalty of account termination, but minors are not forbidden under the same penalty. They're simply told not to......Why? No reason given, but obviously to make sure that kids are under peer pressure to be "acclimatised".

"You must be at least 13 years of age to participate in the Service. Users under the age of 18 are prohibited from accessing the Service other than in the area designated by Linden Lab for use by users from 13 through 17 years of age (the "Teen Area"). Users age 18 and older are prohibited from accessing the Teen Area. Any user age 18 and older who gains unauthorized access to the Teen Area is in breach of this Agreement and may face immediate termination of any or all Accounts held by such user for any area of the Service."



#No control? "Linden Lab reserves the right to delete or change any Account Name for any reason or no reason." There goes your identity.



#Just say you participate, invest a lot of money, and Linden Lab suddenly ups and closes down everything. No avenue for compensation according to this ambiguous statement:

"You acknowledge that your participation in the Service, including your creation or uploading of Content in the Service, does not make you a Linden Lab employee and that you do not expect to be, and will not be, compensated by Linden Lab for such activities."



#If you post something, it may be used to advertise Linden Lab (interesting idea). If you ask for this to stop, they won't guarantee this will happen:

"Notwithstanding the foregoing, you understand and agree that by submitting your Content to any area of the service, you automatically grant (and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant) to Linden Lab: (a) a royalty-free, worldwide, fully paid-up, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right and license to (i) use, reproduce and distribute your Content within the Service as permitted by you through your interactions on the Service, and (ii) use and reproduce (and to authorize third parties to use and reproduce) any of your Content in any or all media for marketing and/or promotional purposes in connection with the Service, provided that in the event that your Content appears publicly in material under the control of Linden Lab, and you provide written notice to Linden Lab of your desire to discontinue the distribution of such Content in such material (with sufficient specificity to allow Linden Lab, in its sole discretion, to identify the relevant Content and materials), Linden Lab will make commercially reasonable efforts to cease its distribution of such Content following the receipt of such notice, although Linden Lab cannot provide any assurances regarding materials produced or distributed prior to the receipt of such notice;"



#A Genius Forum would be shut down pretty fast: "In addition to abiding at all times by the Community Standards, you agree that you shall not: ....(iv) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden Lab at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;..... Any violation by you of the terms of the foregoing sentence may result in immediate and permanent suspension or cancellation of your Account"



#The whole legal aspect is sloppy: "IN NO EVENT WILL LINDEN LAB'S CUMULATIVE LIABILITY TO YOU FOR DIRECT DAMAGES OF ANY KIND OR NATURE EXCEED FIFTY DOLLARS (U.S. $50.00). Some jurisdictions do not allow the foregoing limitations of liability, so to the extent that any such limitation is impermissible, such limitation may not apply to you. You agree that Linden Lab cannot be held responsible or liable for anything that occurs or results from accessing or subscribing to the Service."

Very few jurisdictions would cover cyber-realities, and there is no global jurisdiction as yet. Basically:

"The rights and obligations of the parties under this Agreement shall not be governed by the U.N. Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods; rather such rights and obligations shall be governed by and construed under the laws of the State of California, including its Uniform Commercial Code, without reference to conflict of laws principles.....Any dispute or claim arising out of or in connection with this Agreement or the performance, breach or termination thereof, shall be finally settled by binding arbitration in San Francisco, California under the Rules of Arbitration of the International Chamber of Commerce by three arbitrators appointed in accordance with said rules."

So, what's the law in California?

When you're ready, upgrade to a Premium Second Life membership and enjoy a L$1000 bonus, plus a L$300 weekly stipend and the ability to own land on which you can build, start a business, entertain and live. If you decide to upgrade to a Premium Account, or to cancel your Second Life account, you can change your account status at http://secondlife.com/account

With so many people, and recently announcing their movement to open source software, how many more "security incidents" will they have?

Sorry if you lose your money. But hey, it's a virtual world, so no worries there......errr....

Another viewpoint:



- I spend too much time on the computer

- Most people with internet access have broadband or are probably likely to get it

- Telecommunications is a huge industry that spurs people to become part of the Merged Void

- Space colonisation is a likely step for the human species in the not-too-distant future, which requires improved telecommunications (AI and mechatronics)

- Consciousness (apparent for now in the human species) is likely to depend on developing cyber-realities to match our aims. IE. mechatronic communication system, plus space colonisation aims

- Intelligent humans may have to adapt their biological needs to help develop cyber-communication relatively quickly



Conclusion:

While i'm not going to chop off any arms or legs, i will probably get broadband sometime down the track, to influence events in cyber-realities.

Nevertheless, i'll wait until the animal phase is over, and people get bored with making money, meeting babes, and building nests. Then there may be greater interest in thinking.


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Kelly,

I don't know what the cost of telephone service is in your area, but I noticed that if I got cable internet access and a cable internet phone service, the sum was cheaper than regular phone service and dial-up. Of course it really sucks when the cable goes out because I have to actually go down to the cable office to find out what's going on and/or get it fixed, but there isn't a problem that often (about once a year).

Ryan wrote:There is potential for intelligence to operate in games like Second Life - much greater potential than anything for the large consoles by Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo.

Ok. I can see your point. There are more controls to manipulate in Second Life contrasted with PS2, just as there are more controls to manipulate in a human contrasted with a bird.

Taking your idea further:

When networked real-time interactive programs work electronically by interpreting brain chemicals directly, now that would be a step upwards (relative to space colonisation).

There's an interesting problem here. Even if one is a genius, and uses BrainGate technology to communicate directly with a compatible biochemical machine, that brain hasn't developed the neural pathways to understand. It hasn't the physical memory.

So the whole hypothesis of cyber-intelligence is a hoax. Unless we work out some way to nanoengineer a "genius virus" to create the pathways. Then intelligent communication could happen.

These popular platforms have strict limitations and conditions for players, however games like Second Life give creative control over to the players, so if one is intelligent, then one can create intelligent gathering places in the world, and discussions can follow.

Right: if one has the genius virus, then one can alter others.

But is that virus going to appear in a vaccuum? Is a cyber-reality a fertile petrie dish?

I must admit, it is in its early stages, so Second Life is mostly darkness, but there is potential there.

Are there any libraries with ebooks? The first sign of life might be in interactive ebooks.

My avatar: a living book. Something that looks like Weininger's 6th edition of Geschlect und Charakter.

Kelly Jones wrote:Is a cyber-reality a fertile petrie dish?

I think this forum is as much a cyber-reality as any.

Yeah, but here we trade in a currency that we can buy heaven with, not one with which to fuckwitteth ourselves.

Odd how the will to power forces one to entertain something utterly boring. I was seriously deluded for a while. The old superstitions take some watching.

Glory be to the not-match-makers.

Kelly wrote:

Because post-modernism and scientific materialism have the same core truth (though they'd both dispute they have any core truth). Namely, everything is mysterious, and one day we'll find out the origins to everything (or at least enjoy the journey and find out interesting things). Second Life doesn't state "This is a post-modernist and scientifically materialist thing", however, it is the product of mainstream society, which is.

I don’t think so Kelly, I think the creators of Second Life observed how much limitation was in games created by Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo, and they simply wanted to create a game that was closer to reality, a game with more realistic possibilities. First-person violent shooters are getting old fast.

Kelly wroteL

So far, there's no sign of life.

I’m not so sure, there’s a Socrates Café, an Atheist Society, countless philosophy societies, and so on. I would say that there's 99% darkness, and perhaps less than 1% that offer intellectual alternatives.

Kelly wrote:

"it's fun to explore a pretty computer game that demands one spends money that one won't get back".

You don’t have to spend money, there are free memberships that still give you full access to the world, I’ve explored the much of the world without spending a dime.

Kelly wrote:

couldn't choose my own name, ie. Kelly Jones. Had to choose a surname from their list. Why?

Do you have an attachment to your own name?

Kelly wrote:

avatars are characterless, politically correct, boring, and show no sign of genetic diversity, ie. life. Skipped it.

Every avatar possible is available there.

Kelly wrote:

. "In the event that Linden Lab suspends or terminates your Account or this Agreement, you understand and agree that you shall receive no refund or exchange for any unused time on a subscription, any license or subscription fees, any content or data associated with your Account, or for anything else."

Gone!

Only a fool would spend large amounts of money in a virtual world.

Kelly wrote:

"Linden Lab reserves all rights to vigorously pursue legal action against all persons who misrepresent personal information or are otherwise untruthful about their identity, and to suspend or cancel Accounts registered with inaccurate or incomplete information."

Lucre-chasing hypocrites.

Do you typically judge a publishing company before you decide to buy a philosophy book? That is what you are doing here, it doesn’t make any sense to me. The company have very little control over what happens in the world, and that is why they need to cover their tracks legally, policing a virtual world requires too much energy.

Kelly wrote:

With so many people, and recently announcing their movement to open source software, how many more "security incidents" will they have?

Again, I don’t spend any money in the world, so I have nothing to lose, no one can cause any harm to me because I have nothing.

Kelly wrote:

Are there any libraries with ebooks? The first sign of life might be in interactive ebooks.

At Socrates Café, there is an ebook available for reading for anyone by Nietzsche – I think it was beyond good and evil.

You can also take a copy of the file and upload it onto your hard-drive through your inventory list. So file transfer is possible from the virtual world onto your hard drive.

While it's good to hear at least one Second Hand philosophy book has been spotted the following article comes perhaps closer to describing what actually goes on behind the chatter and architecture (but which Ryan has not figured out yet perhaps, heheheh).

The ins and outs of a Second sex Life

I wonder if the working title of the game shouldn't be Secunt instead. More fitting.

(but which Ryan has not figured out yet perhaps, heheheh)

yeah I know Diebert, over 75% of what goes on is pornography, and not just pornography, much of it is strange fetish porn that you cannot find anywhere else.

For instance, I walked into a private house that forgot to restrict access, and I basically witnessed part of a star trek orgy before they discovered my character and booted me out.

I also witnessed some sort of strange medieval sex slave mini-world, where knights and kings were using women as slaves, very bizarre conversations.

But don’t worry Diebert, in all cases I got away safely.

You attend this stuff and then wonder why you want to masterbate so much?

Try Mah Jongg instead - it doesn't have any sexual overtones, and sharpens your ability to spot things quickly.

Ryan wrote:

they simply wanted to create a game that was closer to reality, a game with more realistic possibilities.

What i've been getting at is that consciousness cannot stop holding values. It doesn't matter if one is a labour-class employee or a corporate director.

Absolute truth is inevitable to consciousness. Including any declarations to the contrary......

Every thought has a logical grounding or it doesn't.

I would say that there's 99% darkness, and perhaps less than 1% that offer intellectual alternatives.

I imagine that a program is 100% enlightened as soon as its initiators and propagators are enlightened. Anything less does not value sanity 100%.

Kelly: (I) couldn't choose my own name, ie. Kelly Jones. Had to choose a surname from their list. Why?

Ryan: Do you have an attachment to your own name?

There are two dominant reasons:

- Enlightenment grows out of a good memory. I liken it to a stepping-stone process. In the early stages, the student needs clear and consistent identities to help develop a feeling for memory. Retaining one's personal name assists in this process.

- Changing one's personal name is a sign of desiring to forget oneself. It is the opposite of a good memory, so it destroys consciousness.

Lastly, i do have an attachment to my personal name. It takes effort to be conscious. Bearing my name is a symbolic gesture that i've accepted the task of going all the way.

Kelly: avatars are characterless, politically correct, boring, and show no sign of genetic diversity, ie. life. Skipped it.

Ryan: Every avatar possible is available there.

I prefer my identity to appear through my writing. That's why my avatar on the forum is so simple and logical. It doesn't distract from thinking, about life.

Only a fool would spend large amounts of money in a virtual world.

But over two million dollars have been spent in this particular virtual world. Taken as a group, the members of it are the fool.

Do you typically judge a publishing company before you decide to buy a philosophy book? That is what you are doing here, it doesn’t make any sense to me. The company have very little control over what happens in the world, and that is why they need to cover their tracks legally, policing a virtual world requires too much energy.

They're not publishers. They're authors. They've created a scenario and steered it. Their values (or lack thereof) are instrumental in the thing.

If you cannot see this point, then all of my points will seem neurotic and pedantic to you.

I cannot get past your incredible blindness to shoddiness. It looks to me like a mental illness, where the ability to support sustained effort - which is memory - hasn't yet developed.

Do you know where that comes from?



This perhaps?

Again, I don’t spend any money in the world, so I have nothing to lose, no one can cause any harm to me because I have nothing.

This is a lie. Taken as an analogy, you're quite protective of not-having-anything.

But look, if you wish to engage in nonchalant, self-inflicted rip-offs, go ahead. Be popular. It won't hurt anyone else, will it.....? Most people find hours of entertainment just picking fluff off each others' sweaters.

Make piles of fluff. Make interesting patterns, even new fluff-designs. Leave a grand legacy of fluff, before you die.

Kelly: Are there any libraries with ebooks? The first sign of life might be in interactive ebooks.

Ryan: At Socrates Café, there is an ebook available for reading for anyone by Nietzsche – I think it was beyond good and evil.

Grrrreat ! Like a molecule in a thousand galaxies.


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Elizabeth wrote:

You attend this stuff and then wonder why you want to masterbate so much?

Elizabeth, thanks for the tip, but most Second Life pornography doesn’t arouse me, most of the fetishes there are fairly unique and only affect individuals that are predisposed to be aroused by them.

Kelly wrote:

They're not publishers. They're authors. They've created a scenario and steered it. Their values (or lack thereof) are instrumental in the thing.

You cannot control the virtual world like a dictator, the gamers were correct in giving total creative control over to the users. If the users do stupid things, so be it, and if they do intelligent things, so be it.

The ideal intelligent designer only provides an open-ended template and allows humanity to be what they will be, and they will grow on their own accord.

Kelly, you have no idea what games like Second Life could do to humanities consciousness over a long period of time, have you ever considered that these hedonistic virtual worlds could speed up the rates in which people grow bored and tired of worldly pleasures?

Second Life is a great template because there is absolutely no control so one can observe a wide range of psychological tendencies operating. It is at least worth exploring a few times to see what humans are up to.

You cannot control the virtual world like a dictator, the gamers were correct in giving total creative control over to the users.

But this is exactly what they haven't done.

I'm not blaming the gamers or users, as neither are conscious enough to realise how hypnotic their instincts are.

If the users do stupid things, so be it, and if they do intelligent things, so be it.

I was recently given this question:

"Virtually no one is interested in Truth. They just want to live their lives as they see fit. What are you going to do about this? Reject them, or try to change them?"

I replied, "I can't help changing them. Just by existing, i'm changing things."

One might as well have a beneficial rather than deleterious effect.

The ideal intelligent designer only provides an open-ended template and allows humanity to be what they will be, and they will grow on their own accord.

I disagree. There's no such thing as an "open-ended template". That would contradict cause and effect.

Things don't have "their own accord".

Kelly, you have no idea what games like Second Life could do to humanities consciousness over a long period of time, have you ever considered that these hedonistic virtual worlds could speed up the rates in which people grow bored and tired of worldly pleasures?

Only true if the purpose to eliminate the ego is there. Doesn't work otherwise.

Just as i am proving right here, the development of consciousness has definite and distinct causes.

A cyber-reality that encourages hedonism does not help people to reason about cause and effect. It is a matter of values. The path to enlightenment is oppositional to the desire to gratify sensuality.

Second Life is a great template because there is absolutely no control so one can observe a wide range of psychological tendencies operating. It is at least worth exploring a few times to see what humans are up to.

Well, the only benefit of plunging back into preschool is: to examine the errors in the "template of mediocrity" - if anything so unconscious could truthfully be called a template. You could call this meditation on cause and effect.

Note that, to do this, one begins with a conscious purpose that steers one's actions. It's explicit.



.

Kelly wrote:

But this is exactly what they haven't done.

No, they are doing it. The creators are allowing humanity to be what they are, which is the highest form of intelligence. Trying to change people that cannot be changed is a losing battle.

For instance: George Bush is unintelligent because he actually believes that he can change people, he thinks he can transform Iraq into a democracy, when barbarity and religious ideology is all the tribes have known for centuries. His fantasies and preferences on what he prefers Iraq to be is interfering with his ability to see what they actually are.

Kelly wrote:

A cyber-reality that encourages hedonism does not help people to reason about cause and effect. It is a matter of values. The path to enlightenment is oppositional to the desire to gratify sensuality.

How about this: Jack and Jane use Second Life to experience every form of pleasure imaginable and over a long period of time they both grow tired of the daily stimulus that they pursue, this causes them to question their values because they are suffering as I result, and their values change accordingly.

Do you see how you were not needed as a catalyst to their change of values? You didn’t have to preach cause-effect at all. You didnt need to control or be willful. It wasn’t necessary, people only change when they are ready to change.

Kelly wrote:

"Virtually no one is interested in Truth. They just want to live their lives as they see fit. What are you going to do about this? Reject them, or try to change them?"

Neither, if someone wants to discuss, I will, but to put effort into changing unconscious people is a waste of time.

Kelly wrote:

I disagree. There's no such thing as an "open-ended template". That would contradict cause and effect.

The Second Life game started with no or little rules, principles, regulations, etc.., programmers were free to do what they were predisposed to do so this is what I meant by open-ended template, the programmers merely provided a blank canvas for the users, which is the highest form of freedom.

Kelly wrote:

Things don't have "their own accord".

ah, but yes they do. A philosopher is either inquisitive, open, and interested in seeing things the way they are or he isn’t.

A man of truth finds wisdom on his own, he doesnt need to be lead by another. He is driven by his own passion.

I cannot cause someone to be interested in the truth, they have to already be predisposed to understand it to some degree.