GENIUS FORUMS

The following is cut and paste from Kevin Solway's Poison for the Heart. It's a worthwhile read.

Any thoughts?

Kevin Solway wrote: Temporality

It is said "All our attachments and joys are temporal," and "you can't take anything with you when you die." Such advice achieves little, as we do not understand the meaning of temporality. We understand it to mean "existing for a limited time," so we redouble our efforts to enjoy what we have, while we have it.

But temporality concerns the nature of things to be always changing. Things do not exist for even a moment before they have changed: so it is impossible to possess anything at all. You see, temporal means not real.

I think part of the reason we enjoy things, a large part of it, is because we do believe they are real/permanent, because that belief makes it easier to forget about the suffering we will experience when the thing goes away, so we can dive more deeply into enjoyment without being plagued by that worry. Kind of like the way a movie is more enjoyable if it's believable.

I think whether or not we enjoy things is up to us, but deeply realizing how temporary things are affords us the opportunity to recognize what is important in life. I wrote this many years ago, but only bothered to get it copyrighted last year:

Did You Have a Moment?


Did you have a moment today
To smile at people you knew?
Did you than have a chance to say
How much each one meant to you?
Per chance or choice they go away,
your opportunity is through;
and those you touched along the way
was totally up to you.

Elizabeth Isabelle
Copyright 2005. All Rights Reserved.

Kevin wrote:

temporal means not real.

I disagree. Just because something is temporary does not detract from its reality. It is real in the moment, and the moment is real.

Now is only a temporary moment in time, so Kevin's definition would mean that "now" is not real. Since the future is just made up of plans or expectations, and the past is only a memory, if now is also not real, there is no reality - therefore also no Ultimate Reality.

Kevin Solway wrote: Temporality

It is said "All our attachments and joys are temporal," and "you can't take anything with you when you die." Such advice achieves little, as we do not understand the meaning of temporality. We understand it to mean "existing for a limited time," so we redouble our efforts to enjoy what we have, while we have it.

I think this is a good point. Actually, I moved across the country about 2 years ago, and have spent all too much energy wishing I could return to Colorado. But when I stop to think, I realize that most of my classmates and friends are gone, and everything has changed; it is not the place I left.

So, this is a big picture look at the same basic idea. I simply need to apply what I know to be true on the big picture as well as the small.


Also, though, the temporality of our joy is what makes it joy. If we were in a steady state and there was never any change from that, we would stop interpreting it as joy and rather interpret it as boredom.

Matt Gregory wrote:I think part of the reason we enjoy things, a large part of it, is because we do believe they are real/permanent, because that belief makes it easier to forget about the suffering we will experience when the thing goes away, so we can dive more deeply into enjoyment without being plagued by that worry. Kind of like the way a movie is more enjoyable if it's believable.

We enjoy things in the false belief that they affirm the ego's existence as somewhat permanent. I used to think about "my unborn nature," but there is only the unborn nature.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:I think whether or not we enjoy things is up to us, but deeply realizing how temporary things are affords us the opportunity to recognize what is important in life.

So if a serial rapist/murderer busted through your door and set about his business with you, you would control whether or not you enjoy it? The writings of a typical control freak; laboring under the delusion that you need impose control where none exists. At the very best you might go catatonic if not murdered, and so live a shattered mind's life, parted from the joy you used to think you could control.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote: I wrote this many years ago, but only bothered to get it copyrighted last year:

Irony, anyone?

You can talk with them on temporality and eternity-- and she'll talk of copyrighting her side of things.

That poem was vapidity at it's height, or depth, or breadth...? No difference really; all the same mindless mire.

BJMcGilly wrote: So if a serial rapist/murderer busted through your door and set about his business with you, you would control whether or not you enjoy it?

I am not the existential extremist that Victor Frankl was. I am a rational person (I'm not perfect, but I believe I can claim rationality as a generalization). I can - and have - controlled my emotions in dangerous situations to the point that I am still alive, and I came out of those situation reasonably uninjured. Again, I was not always perfect (I lost the ability to comprehend language one time when my father was angry and had me at gunpoint). It isn't just enjoyment that we have the opportunity to choose from, and I do my best to choose the most rational response to any situation. No, I can not control everything - and I did not claim that I could. That wasn't even the point of the thread. The point was whether or not something is real just because it is temporary.

BJMcGilly wrote:Irony, anyone?

You can talk with them on temporality and eternity-- and she'll talk of copyrighting her side of things.

I'm not sure of your exact point. I bothered to get it copyrighted when I realized that I may have to live off my own creativity. I can not deal with the abysmal ethics of the way men run business, yet I'm still trying not to be a financial burden on others. To do that, copyrights are needed.

Did you mean why did it take me so long to copyright a poem about the value of each moment? I wrote:

realizing how temporary things are affords us the opportunity to recognize what is important in life.

The time, effort of paperwork, and cost of obtaining a copyright was not as important as the other things that I was doing at the time. That shows recognition of the value of each passing moment - by judging what is most valuable to do with that time. Of course, the poem wasn't exactly aboout that.

There are many things we don't get a second chance at. Mindless you say? No, but a recognition of the mindlessness that so many people live in - the kind of mindlessness that can eithercause a lost chance at someone knowing the truth - and sometimes the mindlessness that may cause people to lose people who might not have died or gone had they recognized how valuable they were to the one(s) they left behind.

I think part of the reason we enjoy things, a large part of it, is because we do believe they are real/permanent, because that belief makes it easier to forget about the suffering we will experience when the thing goes away, so we can dive more deeply into enjoyment without being plagued by that worry. Kind of like the way a movie is more enjoyable if it's believable.

The only problem is that because we hold on so dearly, when we do experience the loss, it can crush us into despair. You can look at attachment as being quite selfish but you can also counter with that old saying: it is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. But does this statement not show how “temporary” these experiences truly are?

The clear ideal is not to “hang on” to experiences any longer than they last, enjoy the experience in the moment and move forward to embrace new experiences. In order to grow, it would seem the only practical thing to do.

I think whether or not we enjoy things is up to us, but deeply realizing how temporary things are affords us the opportunity to recognize what is important in life.

What is important in life? Family – temporary; Friends – temporary; Love – temporary; material objects – temporary; a fun event - temporary; your thoughts - temporary. What exists that will always exist? The answer will be that which holds importance.

Did you have a moment today
To smile at people you knew?
Did you than have a chance to say
How much each one meant to you?
Per chance or choice they go away,
your opportunity is through;
and those you touched along the way
was totally up to you.

Nice poem. What about those that you don’t know? What impact did you have today, in the moment, on someone you passed in the street? What change would occur because of your action or inaction in that moment? What of the person on the verge of suicide, searching the eyes of those strangers on their last final walk down the street, pleading for just a smile to save their life? In one brief, split second a life hangs upon a whim, a gesture that you did not even know you possessed, which would then give meaning to:

“[It is the] nature of things to be always changing. Things do not exist for even a moment before they have changed: so it is impossible to possess anything at all…”

pass wrote:

What about those that you don’t know? What impact did you have today, in the moment, on someone you passed in the street? What change would occur because of your action or inaction in that moment?

True. It's just a poem - not a work of philosophical precision.

BJMcGilly wrote:

Matt Gregory wrote:I think part of the reason we enjoy things, a large part of it, is because we do believe they are real/permanent, because that belief makes it easier to forget about the suffering we will experience when the thing goes away, so we can dive more deeply into enjoyment without being plagued by that worry. Kind of like the way a movie is more enjoyable if it's believable.

We enjoy things in the false belief that they affirm the ego's existence as somewhat permanent.

You mean that as an implication of what I wrote above? The seeming permanence of enjoyment makes the permanence of the ego seem real? Or did you approach it from a different angle?

I used to think about "my unborn nature," but there is only the unborn nature.

EI: The point was whether or not something is real just because it is temporary.

You stated a belief in your control over whether or not you enjoy things. The point was that in temporality, there is no control. The only control over the illusion is to see past it.

BJM: Irony, anyone?

You can talk with them on temporality and eternity-- and she'll talk of copyrighting her side of things.

EI: I'm not sure of your exact point. I bothered to get it copyrighted when I realized that I may have to live off my own creativity. I can not deal with the abysmal ethics of the way men run business, yet I'm still trying not to be a financial burden on others. To do that, copyrights are needed.

Who gives a rat's ass about copyrighting your material, and when it was done, and why it was done late... Edit yourself. If I have to point out the irony it's not worth the effort, it must be aimed at you.

EI: ...realizing how temporary things are affords us the opportunity to recognize what is important in life.

This is the essence of Whitney Houston. You're not talking about Truth and Ultimate Reality now, are you?

EI: The time, effort of paperwork, and cost of obtaining a copyright was not as important as the other things that I was doing at the time. That shows recognition of the value of each passing moment - by judging what is most valuable to do with that time.

This makes no sense. IF it wasn't the most valuable thing to copyright your work at that time, you merely demonstrate your ignorance. You claim to recognize the value of each passing moment- and you still chose the least valuable option.

EI: There are many things we don't get a second chance at. Mindless you say? No, but a recognition of the mindlessness that so many people live in - the kind of mindlessness that can eithercause a lost chance at someone knowing the truth - and sometimes the mindlessness that may cause people to lose people who might not have died or gone had they recognized how valuable they were to the one(s) they left behind.

Ok, I was right, Whitney Houston. Just checking.

Crack is whack!

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Kevin wrote:

temporal means not real.

I disagree. Just because something is temporary does not detract from its reality. It is real in the moment, and the moment is real.

Experience is irrefutable even though the things in experience are not ultimately real. Each "moment" brings subtle change. No doubt, the tree you last past is likely to still be a tree when next you travel that path. But the truth is that drastic changes, albeit undetectable to the naked senses, have taken place. Innumerable molecules have moved to and fro, in and out of the tree's porous leaves. In the blink of an eye, everything has changed. As such, there is no ultimate reality to any given object. Each time you look at it, even before your eyes, it is given to cause and effect. In a very real sense, there is no "tree" nor "you" nor "cup" nor "me" ad infinitum. There is nothing whatsoever.

These "things" are always transforming. Ever-transforming, each moment is as real as a spherical glob in a lava lamp.

Things are as dream-things, moments are as the waves in the ocean.

EI: Now is only a temporary moment in time, so Kevin's definition would mean that "now" is not real. Since the future is just made up of plans or expectations, and the past is only a memory, if now is also not real, there is no reality - therefore also no Ultimate Reality.

You are mistaking the finger for the moon.

Matt Gregory wrote:You mean that as an implication of what I wrote above? The seeming permanence of enjoyment makes the permanence of the ego seem real? Or did you approach it from a different angle?

Enjoyment is nothing more than stroking the ego, thereby affirming its existence. The ego craves this type of attention, which in its ignorance it takes as a sign of its permanence, ie its Ultimate Existence.

BJMcGilly wrote:You stated a belief in your control over whether or not you enjoy things.

My statement:

I think whether or not we enjoy things is up to us, but deeply realizing how temporary things are affords us the opportunity to recognize what is important in life.

was in direct response to Matt's statement:

I think part of the reason we enjoy things, a large part of it, is because we do believe they are real/permanent,

BJ, you are taking a part of a statement out of context, manipulating it to say something it didn't indicate, and trying to shoot holes in your own fallicious argument. Please argue logically, and try to stay rational when you interpret what is written.

So respond to my points that differ from my one misunderstanding. Which at no point invalidated my response regardless.

I could have saved my time and just written you off like you're attempting to do here. I prefer to read and every now and again participate in good topics, but you are like a weed that creeps into every topic and kills it. Blowing so much hot air around, ploying for sympathy and chatting inanely about crap.

And the volume of crap that flows endlessly out of you. Granted you irritate me because I have feminine mindedness left in myself, but goddamn i don't shit everywhere and pretend to be fertilizing the earth.


edited - told bitch off

BJMcGilly wrote:So respond to my points that differ from my one misunderstanding. Which at no point invalidated my response regardless.

I could have saved my time and just written you off like you're attempting to do here. I prefer to read and every now and again participate in good topics, but you are like a weed that creeps into every topic and kills it. Blowing so much hot air around, ploying for sympathy and chatting inanely about crap.

And the volume of crap that flows endlessly out of you. Granted you irritate me because I have feminine mindedness left in myself, but goddamn i don't shit everywhere and pretend to be fertilizing the earth.


edited - told bitch off

What did you want me to respond to in such a way that you would not consider it hot air? The only thing of yours I could find that did not seem to be a random tirade was the following:

Experience is irrefutable even though the things in experience are not ultimately real. Each "moment" brings subtle change. No doubt, the tree you last past is likely to still be a tree when next you travel that path. But the truth is that drastic changes, albeit undetectable to the naked senses, have taken place. Innumerable molecules have moved to and fro, in and out of the tree's porous leaves. In the blink of an eye, everything has changed. As such, there is no ultimate reality to any given object. Each time you look at it, even before your eyes, it is given to cause and effect. In a very real sense, there is no "tree" nor "you" nor "cup" nor "me" ad infinitum. There is nothing whatsoever.

These "things" are always transforming. Ever-transforming, each moment is as real as a spherical glob in a lava lamp.

Things are as dream-things, moments are as the waves in the ocean.

This is decent Buddist philosophy, but it does not subtract from there is reality in the moment - just because things are not immutable does not make them unreal. Stating this is just a restatement of my original position - therefore I would consider this "hot air." I do not think repeating myself will change your mind, and I will not waste my time on a "is not" - "is too" type-off, so that is why I did not respond until you insisted.

Since you insist, I will respond to all of your points that differ from mine:

You are mistaking the finger for the moon.

That is empty as a stand-alone statement. I see that you think you disagree based on whatever you interpreted, but it does nothing to further enhance your position.

Enjoyment is nothing more than stroking the ego, thereby affirming its existence.

Enjoyment exists (as evidenced, in part, by you referring to it and others knowing what you mean). Everything that exists is part of Ultimate Reality. Therefore, to deny enjoyment is to deny part of Ultimate Reality.

Who gives a rat's ass about copyrighting your material, and when it was done, and why it was done late

If you make your points more clearly, perhaps you will get more direct responses.

Edit yourself.

Here is another unclear point. I'll save my 3 guesses, and wait for your clarification.

This is the essence of Whitney Houston. You're not talking about Truth and Ultimate Reality now, are you?

Yes, I am. I don't know much about Whitney Houston - I think she was a singer, but that's all I even think I know. Even if Truth was sung by a singer, that does not make it less true.

This makes no sense. IF it wasn't the most valuable thing to copyright your work at that time, you merely demonstrate your ignorance. You claim to recognize the value of each passing moment- and you still chose the least valuable option.

This seems to be a pointless paragraph. How would you know what I was doing instead to judge for me what was the most valuable thing to me for me to do with my time?

Ok, I was right, Whitney Houston. Just checking.

Crack is whack!

More pointlessness - what was your definition of "hot air?"

you are like a weed that creeps into every topic and kills it. Blowing so much hot air around, ploying for sympathy and chatting inanely about crap.



And the volume of crap that flows endlessly out of you. Granted you irritate me because I have feminine mindedness left in myself, but goddamn i don't shit everywhere and pretend to be fertilizing the earth.

I have not ployed for sympathy. Did I overestimate the ability of the members of this board to remain detached? I know that I have to be careful of the people out there, most of whom are too fragile to even hear what I have lived through - but I credited the people here with more than that. Can't we even look at harsh realities here with a detached vision, and just focus on the Truth of the matter?

If you feel sympathy or irritation, that is your own "femininity" that you have to deal with. Perhaps my shoving a little of the harsher side of Reality under your nose is better for your development than allowing you to cower in your ivory tower.

passthrough wrote: The clear ideal is not to “hang on” to experiences any longer than they last, enjoy the experience in the moment and move forward to embrace new experiences. In order to grow, it would seem the only practical thing to do.

This is very Zen.

It seems to me that embracing the moment makes it much easier to let go of the moment when it is gone. People hang on to the past more when they didn't say or do what the wish they had when they did, or when they say or do something that they regret. By embracing the moment with Truth, one is not so attached to that moment, and can - as you said - "move forward to embrace new experiences."

Embracing a moment with Truth is accepting it as it is and understanding that it couldn't have been other than what it was. Trying to fit moments into your desire framework is precisely what attaches us to a moment and causes us regret (suffering).

Realising determinism is not enlightenment itself, but it is one of the most liberating things in the world. Yes, life is ironic.

Dan Rowden wrote:Embracing a moment with Truth is accepting it as it is and understanding that it couldn't have been other than what it was.

How so? Don't we have a choice on whether or not to say something or to do one thing or another - and then doesn't what we do or neglect in one moment shape the effects of a later or simultaneous moment? Causality becomes a moot point in determinism.

All things happen as Nature dictates, and our choices as our nature dictates. There's a moment and a truth to embrace..

Dan Rowden wrote:All things happen as Nature dictates, and our choices as our nature dictates.

Sounds a little Rogerian, so I'm familiar with the dynamics of what you're saying from that angle.

Dan Rowden wrote: Realising determinism is not enlightenment itself, but it is one of the most liberating things in the world.

It would be quite liberating, as it absolves a person of all responsibility. So why do so many things in life feel like a choice?

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

Dan Rowden wrote: Realising determinism is not enlightenment itself, but it is one of the most liberating things in the world.

It would be quite liberating, as it absolves a person of all responsibility. So why do so many things in life feel like a choice?

It does absolve people from responsibility in one sense, but that's because the concept has a false foundation.

The reason things feel like a choice has to do with the way consciousness and ego functions. We experience the world in temporal snapshots, isolated chunks of the continuum of causation. It's like what we call "sudden events". If we could actually experience the whole series of causes that led to such a thing we would not experience it as sudden. Same with what we call "choices". We experience an isolated chunk of the continuum of will (and its causes) and the ego identifies with it and experiences it as a free will choice. It's another example of the ego validates itself.

Dan Rowden wrote: It does absolve people from responsibility in one sense, but that's because the concept has a false foundation.

What is the false foundation, and in what sense does determinism not absolve people of responsibility?