GENIUS FORUMS

I would love to invite Jed here, but he disappeared from Facebook. :(

Rebecca,

I wrote to the admin of that site, Hooper, and asked what happened but he didn't answer. Perhaps because he didn't know me, and I have never posted.
Either he deleted Jed or Jed did it himself. If Hoper deleted him, probably the Jed was a fake, but if the Jed deleted himself, he probably got irritated or spooked by something. But either way, Hooper must have his email.

It's a shame, as I would really like to talk to the real Jed.

Kid,

I know you guys aren't Jed people, but he talks about the dreamstate. As in all of reality being pretty much being undistinguishable from a dream. He says Human Adulthood is awakening within the dreamstate. and that Enlightenment is awakening from the dreamstate? Any of you enlightened guys shed light or clarification on that? What does he mean by dreamstate?

As I see it, the dreamstate is pretty much exactly what it says. We think we're awake but we're not. It's all about consciousness. We exist in consciousness, and there are different states. We have our unconscious mind or subconscious mind, and there is a lot of stuff there, mostly inaccessible to us. When we dream, we think it's real, but when we wake up, we know the difference. And have you ever dreamed that you awoke from a dream, only to awaken later and realize that you dreamed you had awoken?

The dreamstate is lack of awareness.

Human adulthood is a lot like lucid dreaming. You're still dreaming, and your consciousness is still in the dreaming mode, which has its own brainwaves and everything, but you know that its a dream. You know who you are, and yet you're dreaming. Once, when this happened to me, I decided to tell some people to get out of my house because I knew I was dreaming and that it didn't matter. I even got a little confused and caught up in the dream again.

I think that one reason human adulthood doesn't happen much in civilization, but does to aboriginals, is that we have been traumatized, and trauma decreases the consciousness pie. consciousness is like a pie, and ideally, we would have the whole thing available to us, but we don't. The whole unconscious mind is a rich deep sea, but we are mostly cut off from it. We get access during sleep, but that is off kilter too. But the amount of the consciousness pie that goes underwater, into the deep sea, increases with trauma, in my opinion.

When I awoke from the dream state, it is difficult to describe it, because everything looks just as before, but there is just the sense of having awoken, and you see that other people are sleeping. Looking back on the past, there is a sense of just not quite having really been there for much of it, not taking it seriously. People keep living as if it didnt matter that they waste their time waiting for the next thing, waiting for tomorrow, being irritated by things.

And you, Kid, you've got way too much angst. It's a waste of time, you know.

Dan,

I've been thinking about your question. I feel sure he has made some points that y'all haven't, but I will have to maybe thumb through and look.

One difference is, he definitely respects motherhood.

Iolaus,

And you, Kid, you've got way too much angst. It's a waste of time, you know.

I don't know if I agree with that. What is your definition of a "waste of time"?

Isn't angst, or discontent, the fuel that you use to bust out of your delusions? Being severely pissed off that you've, shall I say, wasted so much time up until now? Misdirected anger is a waste, for sure. But if you cultivate that angst and focus it in upon your goal... ?

Hi Rebecca,

I don't know if I agree with that. What is your definition of a "waste of time"?

Well, here's an example from facebook that I found silly and boring, something about hatred for the universe :

HELLO!!!!!

If it were possible I would forget everything I know about enlightenment and choose a happy human life in maya's funland. You know how Jed says that enlightenment isn't for everyone, and only recommended for people who absolutely have to go through it? I am one. I think I will die if I don't get through this process. But I hate it! I hate it so much.

Nothing. That's what all this is going to get me. Absolutely NOTHING! Jed says it's tempting to think that we're all living lives and getting closer to truth, and with each life we develop less tolerance for untruth. Well my tolerance is becoming ZERO!!! Right now, there's nothing enlightened about me. I just fuckin hate everything! Everything! Almost every little thing pisses me off so damn much. And there are two options. Either maya is going to piss me off so damn much that I kill myself, or I drop the whole struggle altogether, peacefully accepting.... and die from natural causes. Nothing else could make me want to leave maya. Even suicidal despair might not even get me out of this attachment. Attachment to wanting things, and this attachment I have to hating everything... to this idea that something is wrong. I've tried losing everything, and I just reattach to something else....blah, blah, blah

Now that you ask the question, it will take some effort to explain. Are posts like this some sort of unspoken norm in which followers are trying to prove to themselves and others that they get it? That they get that there is a problem? All I know is I find it uninteresting, and it feels like such a person is so far down that it would be hard to help them. Is this someone who you would slate for great spiritual growth? He is angry and suicidal! is this someone who you would have a good time with? If it isn't even sincere, that only makes it worse.

That entire long post can be summarized with one word: "Waaaahhh!"

Isn't angst, or discontent, the fuel that you use to bust out of your delusions? Being severely pissed off that you've, shall I say, wasted so much time up until now? Misdirected anger is a waste, for sure. But if you cultivate that angst and focus it in upon your goal... ?

Well, perhaps my path has been different. Indeed, Jed says it is not truth which beckons, but hatred for the lie. But I don't see the preference for truth or dislike of untruth as being different. They are two sides of a coin. I was never driven by much angst, although some. But you bear it like a man, not focusing on the ups and downs, they aren't what's happening.

All negativity is to me a sign that you're out of balance. Never cultivate it. One of the salient characteristics of human adulthood is an upwelling sense of gratitude. Not whining and hating.

This is why I scolded the Kid in a previous post for saying he felt like a stupid piece of shit or whatever. Get it, that we are all absolutely equal in our true nature, and that all our personality traits that seem unequal are just artifacts of our own, unique and personal, yes quite poignant (to ourselves anyway) journey, but they are not what's real. Are you the reincarnation of Hitler? So the hell what. Get on with it. We all gotta work out our problems.

Look, I got this little book of zen sayings, and so far the best one is this:

Conquering your passions is not Nirvana.
Considering them as no affair of yours, that is Nirvana.

In other words, your personality has its flaws, but know that who you are is not that, have some humor, take a step back. Focusing on your flaws only makes you self absorbed.

I have some angst and some discontent, but I am driven by a desire for more truth, knowledge, understanding and vision. I ask the universe quietly but continually for assistance, and would never ask in an ungrateful, petulant way. The universe has been very, very good to me.

Iolaus wrote:Dan,

I've been thinking about your question. I feel sure he has made some points that y'all haven't, but I will have to maybe thumb through and look.

One difference is, he definitely respects motherhood.

That sets off alarm bells for me, Anna, as you might imagine. Can you say in what sense he expresses respect for it?

Iolaus wrote:Well, here's an example from facebook that I found silly and boring, something about hatred for the universe :

HELLO!!!!!

If it were possible I would forget everything I know about enlightenment and choose a happy human life in maya's funland. You know how Jed says that enlightenment isn't for everyone, and only recommended for people who absolutely have to go through it? I am one. I think I will die if I don't get through this process. But I hate it! I hate it so much.

The person who wrote this has quite obviously achieved absolutely nothing and is therefore not even involved in the process. His ego is clearly 100% intact. I suspect he/she thinks you just have to believe a bunch of things or act in certain ways or adopt certain psychological postures and life transforms. He clearly seems to think non-attachment is something you do, rather than something you become.

I hope he didn't get that approach from McKenna's books.

Iolaus wrote:
Dan,

I've been thinking about your question. I feel sure he has made some points that y'all haven't, but I will have to maybe thumb through and look.

One difference is, he definitely respects motherhood.

Dan replied:
That sets off alarm bells for me, Anna, as you might imagine. Can you say in what sense he expresses respect for it?

(Okay, so I have not figured out how to work the quote function correctly, I know...)

It set off alarm bells for me too, because I didn't get the sense he respects motherhood. I got the sense he doesn't touch it with a 10-foot pole (wisely)... think about the part where Maggie asks Jed if her mom (Lisa) is going to be enlightened. Jed says, "No, she's going to be something much better (meaning a Human Adult I am assuming)." He tells Lisa that it seems to him that she's fired all her guns to get out of this one layer of delusion, and it doesn't seem like she's got the oomph to go further. He tries to give her pointers and push her a little, make her uncomfortable, make her see she's not out of the woods. He hopes she'll go further like he did, but he has a feeling she won't. So then it is my guess that the reason he tells Maggie her mom will be something "much better" is that from Maggie's perspective, it WILL be much better if her mom doesn't become enlightened. She will have a functioning, stable parent, one who will support her in becoming a functioning, stable adult if she so chooses.

I don't really see where the "respect" comes in. Didn't Jed say in Spiritual Warfare that you have to go beyond needing respect from others and paying respect? Do you ever see him respecting anybody?


As for the post you pasted, Iolaus, I would agree that that's one of the more whiny ones I've seen. But in the context of talking about Jed's books, many of us on that group have come to realize we are doing a form of autolysis by posting our thoughts/ponderings/rants. You get it out of your head into a concrete form where you can look back on it and see how crazy it is, and move on. It makes you see that you're digging through all the repressed shit. Every day you can be embarrassed by what you wrote the day before, etc. Otherwise you're stagnant. I don't know. I sometimes see it as writing to Maya. Every time you write, with any audience in mind, or even just for yourself, you are confronting the Goddess of Delusion.

I don't know all the people in the group obviously, but a lot of them do not post out of some desire to share their wisdom or insight. They post because they're working through their shit, and sometimes it helps to see other people going through the same stuff you have been through, and vice versa. Emotions and delusions are universal, and it's a good reminder that we're not unique and special.

Silly and boring to express hatred for the universe? I don't think so. I think it's very stimulating, in small doses, to see some things coming out that our society constantly makes us repress.

All I know is I find it uninteresting, and it feels like such a person is so far down that it would be hard to help them. Is this someone who you would slate for great spiritual growth? He is angry and suicidal! is this someone who you would have a good time with? If it isn't even sincere, that only makes it worse.

Hard to help them? You think people need to be helped by outside agencies? This is every man for himself!

Angry and suicidal, yes. It's an appropriate and natural response to the situation.

Have a good time? Why would I want to "have a good time" when I am trying to wake up?

I think he/she IS being sincere, in a lot of pain and very much alive. I see it as a huge opportunity, when a person has what might appear to be a breakdown like this. You can't get to truth without tearing down what is in the way. But to each his own.

By the way, I hope this is received in the spirit of discussion and not as a personal attack. If I am being overly contrary for this forum, I hope the administrators will tell me.

There is no such thing as "overly contrary" for this forum.

Yes, I had a bit of a chuckle at your post, Rebecca - it's so obvious from it that you're new here. :-P

You've seen Crocodile Dundee, right? That classic line "That's not a knife, this is a knife." In that spirit, I say to you, "That's not a personal attack, this is a personal attack!" And attacks as severe as that (the post that I linked you to is just the start of a violent encounter, btw) are tolerated on this forum, so, you know, feel free to let it all hang out.

David, I intend on replying to you, I just have a few other things to get around to first.

"That's not a personal attack, this is a personal attack!"

It's a goddamned free-for-all!

Awesome.

It's not quite a free-for-all. Irrelevant or constant abuse that does not add to any debate won't be tolerated. It's just that this place doesn't care for the nonsense dynamic of continually appealing to or subordinating oneself to the petty sensibilities of others, which is simply a means of control. Or, that's the sort of atmosphere the admins try and uphold, philosophy not being a gentleman's sport, but a blood and guts battle against falsity.

rebecca702 wrote:

And you, Kid, you've got way too much angst. It's a waste of time, you know.

I don't know if I agree with that. What is your definition of a "waste of time"?

Isn't angst, or discontent, the fuel that you use to bust out of your delusions? Being severely pissed off that you've, shall I say, wasted so much time up until now? Misdirected anger is a waste, for sure. But if you cultivate that angst and focus it in upon your goal... ?

I think that angst, or a healthy (rational) disgust for the nature of the dreamstate is absolutely essential. It provides the impetus to keep going forward when the darker clouds of realisation begin rolling it. Without it, one will simply look back to the dreamstate and retreat there in the face of the storm.

guest_of_logic wrote:"That's not a knife, this is a knife."

"That's not a knife, that's a spoon."
"I see you've played knifey-spoony before." (pic)

That's such a good graphic on so many levels, Dan—not the least of which being the futile attempt to escape a storm in a hot air balloon... [laughs]

It should be included in all hot air balloon safety manuals.

That's where I got it.

I never took you for the hot air ballooning type.

All I've ever needed was the balloon.

[Adds appropriate musical cue...]

Yo Dan,

That sets off alarm bells for me, Anna, as you might imagine. Can you say in what sense he expresses respect for it?

And as you can imagine, I find this annoying! He expresses respect for it in the way he talks to a couple of the made-up characters in his book.

He clearly seems to think non-attachment is something you do, rather than something you become.

I hope he didn't get that approach from McKenna's books.

Definitely not, it is one of the good and amusing parts of his first book, and one of the things I had noticed myself some years ago. Namely, that seekers mistake the fruits of enlightenment, such as nonattachment, for the process of getting there. They think they should imitate the behaviors, rather than figure out how in the hell to achieve their state of perception.

Rebecca,

Didn't Jed say in Spiritual Warfare that you have to go beyond needing respect from others and paying respect? Do you ever see him respecting anybody?

He told the mother in his first book that being a good mother to her child was a perfectly good response to a question he asked her, something about her purpose.

I'm not talking about needing respect from people. I just mean that he respected her in her role as a mother, and yes, I saw Jed respecting everyone.

I certainly respect everyone, but then what do I know, I'm just a mystic. I don't see how you can fail to respect everyone. We are all the same.

What he tells Maggie and Lisa regarding Lisa's prospects for enlightenment is about Lisa as a person, not about her as a mother.

many of us on that group have come to realize we are doing a form of autolysis by posting our thoughts/ponderings/rants.

Hmmm...well I suppose it could be useful then. I have not really taken a shine to autolysis, at least not the form of writing it down which to me seems very cumbersome. In my head, I do it all the time. I know, he says that's not the best way to do it.

Silly and boring to express hatred for the universe? I don't think so. I think it's very stimulating, in small doses, to see some things coming out that our society constantly makes us repress.

You mean most people are suppressing their natural hatred for the universe?

Hard to help them? You think people need to be helped by outside agencies? This is every man for himself!

Well, yes and no. Jed got help from books. I have gotten incalculable help from books, and Jed's books are going to help a few people. And, helping people is the purpose of this forum. I've gotten help from this forum, despite the founders are my sworn enemies, but I love my enemies...

Angry and suicidal, yes. It's an appropriate and natural response to the situation.

Really??!! Goodness. I am the one who thinks we are in hell, and that nefarious beings have interfered somehow with us, and that this may very well be the missing piece to the puzzle of what the hell is going on here, and why it is that, as Jed himself says and admits he cannot answer - the fact that we can't know.

Why can't we know anything? Why are we in a blind state? I suspect foul play! But am I angry and suicidal? Absolutely not! Why indulge in such emotion? Does not Jed say that all emotions are states of consciousness, and all states of consciousness are in the dream state? Besides, this is a helluva fun and interesting place. It's fucked up, but alright. That's the game.

Have a good time? Why would I want to "have a good time" when I am trying to wake up?

Because the only way to waste time in life is to not be enjoying it. This isn't a dress rehearsal, damnit, this is it. Every moment gone, is gone forever. You're not working on waking up so that you can begin to live when you wake up. Live now!

Oh, Dan!

You have serendipitously quoted almost verbatim one of the lines I happen to remember from one of the books.

but a blood and guts battle against falsity.

The line was "the muddy, bloody battle of waking up."

Yeah, Rebecca, don't worry.

Namely, that seekers mistake the fruits of enlightenment, such as nonattachment, for the process of getting there. They think they should imitate the behaviors, rather than figure out how in the hell to achieve their state of perception.

Because the only way to waste time in life is to not be enjoying it. This isn't a dress rehearsal, damnit, this is it. Every moment gone, is gone forever. You're not working on waking up so that you can begin to live when you wake up. Live now!

I'm seeing you contradict yourself here. First you say don't go for the fruit, then you say have at the fruit! When you say "live now" I hear "enjoy the dream." No, I refuse to enjoy the dream. Yours is the voice of the feminine, saying everything is already perfect. Maybe I am misunderstanding you. Are you still "working on waking up"?

"Only that day dawns to which you are awake."

"Enjoying your life" can be a way of imitating enlightenment.

I still disagree that Jed "respects" anyone or anything. He was not being respectful to that character in the 1st book. He was basically saying, whatever you want to do is fine - I'm not selling anything, you do what you want. As I recall she was a very New-Agey lady with an egoic air of "Very Spiritual Person" and was expecting Jed to play the corresponding role of Very Spiritual Guru-Guy. He refused to give her a pat answer, because she was one of those people always looking for a teaching or practice to latch onto. I really don't see how he was respecting "her playing her role" at all. All roles are the same, really.

I certainly respect everyone, but then what do I know, I'm just a mystic. I don't see how you can fail to respect everyone. We are all the same.

Then doesn't that make the concept of respect meaningless? If you believe all is one, then how does paying respect make any sense? Seems a waste of energy. It's like telling yourself you're awesome in the mirror. Perpetuates duality. When all you're really doing is jerking off.

You mean most people are suppressing their natural hatred for the universe?

Yes. People suppress a lot of hatred in general, which stems from fear. It's a survival mechanism, and when that mechanism becomes no longer necessary, the residue of many years of suppressed stuff seeps out. I don't mean people actually hate the universe. They hate what they've done to themselves. What they've done is conceal the truth, the natural state of things from their very own eyes. Being mad at yourself and at the universe is really the same thing.

I am the one who thinks we are in hell, and that nefarious beings have interfered somehow with us, and that this may very well be the missing piece to the puzzle of what the hell is going on here, and why it is that, as Jed himself says and admits he cannot answer - the fact that we can't know.

Why can't we know anything? Why are we in a blind state? I suspect foul play! But am I angry and suicidal? Absolutely not! Why indulge in such emotion? Does not Jed say that all emotions are states of consciousness, and all states of consciousness are in the dream state? Besides, this is a helluva fun and interesting place. It's fucked up, but alright. That's the game.

Uhhhhh... WHAT? nefarious beings? Yes, the demons of your own mind! You suspect foul play... yet you're resigned to have a good time anyway. Sounds like learned helplessness.

May I ask why the founders of the forum are your sworn enemies?

Iolaus wrote:Yo Dan,

That sets off alarm bells for me, Anna, as you might imagine. Can you say in what sense he expresses respect for it?

And as you can imagine, I find this annoying! He expresses respect for it in the way he talks to a couple of the made-up characters in his book.

I have no idea why you found what I asked annoying. There has to be a reason why he would suggest respect for something like motherhood. I simply wanted to know what the reason was. I frankly still don't know.

You have serendipitously quoted almost verbatim one of the lines I happen to remember from one of the books.

[...]"but a blood and guts battle against falsity." The line was "the muddy, bloody battle of waking up."

I have a theory that McKenna has actually been stalking QSR for years and ripped us off!

Lurking Dan, not stalking.

Dan,

It's not that the question was annoying, but the ridiculous attitude. You guys are antilife and impractical. He respected the need for good motherhood. Talk about deluded concepts - where do you get off having all this baggage about "something like motherhood."

Nose in the air. Was your mother a lousy mother? Do you wish she had been?