GENIUS FORUMS

In this post I want to determine whether or not genes always appear via 'random variation', or if genes sometimes become established as a result of a strong neurological experience such the witnessing of a fearful event or learning in a novel way.

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Are changes in neurology recorded in ones genes?

I thought of this the other day when I was working in my garden and I was subtly startled by a piece of rope. My mind had momentarily mistaken it for a snake.

A week later I seen a real snake in my garden. And again I felt a very slight pang of fear. Of course, growing up, I've handled lots of snakes, so this small brief fear had very little power over me. I snatched the big snake and studied it closely, watching it wrap itself around my fingers

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Think of the first of our ancestors who witnessed his fellow killed by a snake.

(The fear of death had already been (somehow) written as genes prior to this experience of the snake of course)

However, at the moment of witnessing the snake kill, the brain of the witness recorded a strong association with death and the snake.

Was this impression recorded in the genes in correspondance to the intensity of the more superficial neurological experience?

Did the strong change in the neurology of the witness, also take place in his genes?

And therefore was his intepretation of the snake passed on to us?

When I feel a pang of fear when I encounter a snake, am I experiencing the residue of specific fearful experiences had by my ancestors?

Or am I simply experiencing a fluke mutation that happened long, long ago, a fluke mutation that just so happens to make me frightened of the snake.

Cory wrote:

Or am I simply experiencing a fluke mutation that happened long, long ago, a fluke mutation that just so happens to make me frightened of the snake.

We should also bring in other types of self-protective fear into the picture. For instance: the other day I was alone and my mind was completely still and sensitive and I opened a door at the university and there was a large overly loud obnoxious football player behind the door then I jumped. I have done this a few times before and it is quite a blow to the masculine image I have of myself. The football player snickered and continues on his marry way, perhaps to the pub? Anyway the point is that the brain is programmed to react to unexpected movement that could be threatening. It prepares you for the flight or flight response. This self-protective fear seems like the precursor to the fight or flight response.

Now it seems this is all genetically determined meaning the response is encoded in the genes themselves, but my question is: Is your snake example different in nature compared to my cowardly jump away from the football player?

Are they both encoded self-protective fear regulated by the genes? You’re example could be different though because the ‘snake image’ is in man’s consciousness and associated with death as well as the ‘spider image’.

I would hope that the image of the football player isnt in my consciousness and associated with death because if this is the case then I have big problems.

Another example: I remember I was swimming with three friends from high school years ago and all three of my friends were terrified of spiders so I derived pleasure off of freaking them out by putting a water spider on my face and running after them.

For some reason the fear of spiders was not activated in my genes, but was activated in their genes.

What is also interesting is that all three of them also enjoyed watching horror movies, but I never participated because I couldnt tolerate that sort of stimulation. (excitment from fear)

Cory Duchesne wrote:In this post I want to determine whether or not genes always appear via 'random variation', or if genes sometimes become established as a result of a strong neurological experience such the witnessing of a fearful event or learning in a novel way.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Are changes in neurology recorded in ones genes?

I thought of this the other day when I was working in my garden and I was subtly startled by a piece of rope. My mind had momentarily mistaken it for a snake.

A week later I seen a real snake in my garden. And again I felt a very slight pang of fear. Of course, growing up, I've handled lots of snakes, so this small brief fear had very little power over me. I snatched the big snake and studied it closely, watching it wrap itself around my fingers

-----------------------------------------------------------

Think of the first of our ancestors who witnessed his fellow killed by a snake.

(The fear of death had already been (somehow) written as genes prior to this experience of the snake of course)

However, at the moment of witnessing the snake kill, the brain of the witness recorded a strong association with death and the snake.

Was this impression recorded in the genes in correspondance to the intensity with the more superficial neurological experience?

Did the strong change in the neurology of the witness, also take place in his genes?

And therefore was his intepretation of the snake passed on to us?

When I feel a pang of fear when I encounter a snake, am I experiencing the residue of specific fearful experiences had by my ancestors?

Or am I simply experiencing a fluke mutation that happened long, long ago, a fluke mutation that just so happens to make me frightened of the snake.

http://www.whale.to/b/sp/8.html


The programmers do not learn this material, but those who want to understand the nitty-gritty molecular-biology of how the complex memory processes work in the mind might want to try to study the report. In very basic terms, what it is communicating is: Neurons (nerve cells--of which the brain has 10 billion) meet each other at junctions (gaps) called synapses. At the synapses (gaps), neurotransmitters allow them to communicate. There are 60 trillion synapses. As a person gathers information, the brain changes the synapses, in a sense rewires itself. Part of memory is how the brain "rewires" itself, to use a layman’s term.

Genetics have an important role in the initial hardwiring of the brain. Genetics also determine receptor diversity (at the synapses) which relates directly to learning & memory because it increases the ways neurons can perceive, process and recall information. The Hippocampus has been found to play a role in long term memory storage. The Hippocampus stores memory in the cortex to be encoded into long term memory.

Numerous areas of the brain are busy with processing only one type of memory. In a macaque monkey, around two dozen distinct visual areas of the brain for memory storage have been discovered. In other reports, it has come out that memory is stored holographically. German researchers have been trying to figure out at the Max Planck Institute for Brain Research at Frankfurt, Germany what mechanism is used to bind the many various parts of information stored into a coherent recollection.

The point that should be made at this point, is that an alter does not exist in one spot in the mind. The mind perceives that an alter does, but an alter in terms of physical change in the brain is actually a multitude of synaptic changes scattered throughout the brain.

Cory Duchesne wrote:When I feel a pang of fear when I encounter a snake, am I experiencing the residue of specific fearful experiences had by my ancestors?

Or am I simply experiencing a fluke mutation that happened long, long ago, a fluke mutation that just so happens to make me frightened of the snake.

There are other possible reasons you could be scared of snakes too of course, like learned behaviour, but let's stick to genetics. Also there is no proof that there is specific genetic programming for fear of snakes, but supposing there was, as far as I know mainstream science would agree with the second explanation you gave. One possible course of events(but certainly not the only way it could occur) being that those humans who weren't scared of snakes would have, over time, died off due to being killed by snakes. Thus eventually leaving only humans who were scared of snakes, and then they would go on to reproduce and pass those scared-of-snakes genes on to succeeding generations.

Here are some relevant articles on the subject:
Lamarckism
Modern evolutionary synthesis
Epigenetic inheritance

To my knowledge most genes remain the same bewteen generations, though it is natural for genes to undergo mutations between generations. Eventually certain mutations will become common place if they are successful in the species survival, or vice-versa if they aren't. It's simply random trial and error, with no purpose in mind.

I would say that as with most animals, humans are all subconsciously affraid of the unknown, uncommon, or unrecognizable (which may include snakes, or other creepy crawly things). The genetic mutation that created this behavior was successful because it kept us out of harms way. Still, this behavior can be overridden as one becomes more familiar with the unknown/uncommon until it no longer triggers sudden pangs of fear.

Also, there certainly will be life experiences which will be stored in your memory that keep you out of harms way as well. Although this method is also part of genetics, since the ability to store learned behavior also evolved through the random trial and error process of genetic mutation. So no matter what it all comes back to genetics in the end.

Nick Treklis wrote:To my knowledge most genes remain the same bewteen generations, though it is natural for genes to undergo mutations between generations. Eventually certain mutations will become common place if they are successful in the species survival, or vice-versa if they aren't. It's simply random trial and error, with no purpose in mind.

I would say that as with most animals, humans are all subconsciously affraid of the unknown, uncommon, or unrecognizable (which may include snakes, or other creepy crawly things). The genetic mutation that created this behavior was successful because it kept us out of harms way. Still, this behavior can be overridden ...

Also, there certainly will be life experiences which will be stored in your memory that keep you out of harms way as well. Although this method is also part of genetics, since the ability to store learned behavior also evolved through the random trial and error process of genetic mutation. So no matter what it all comes back to genetics in the end.

I agree with those parts, and that is most of Nick's post. Paragraph one reflects Darwin's Theory of Evolution, which I believe worked well in cave-man days, and less well as civilization enhanced its influence on caring for the disadvantaged.

The part I disagreed with is

as one becomes more familiar with the unknown/uncommon until it no longer triggers sudden pangs of fear.

I believe there is a significant difference between fear and startle reflex. I believe that fear can be overcome because I have overcome many fears. I have done extensive research on the startle reflex, including extensive literature reviews, many interviews with the experiences of treatment by mental health counselors for my research project for my master's program, and personal attempts at treatment and self-treatment for my startle reflex associated with PTSD. I also believe the startle reflex can be triggered by something the mind learned could be a cue that injury or pain (not just death) may occur soon if evasive action is not taken.

I usually move out of the way of a projectile or swat it away before conciously being aware that I was about to be hit. The danger is gone before I have a chance to feel fear. I understand that I jump when people "talk with their hands" too close to my face, but I do not feel fear at this. If it is an extended startle, such as someone unexpectedly appearing as I round a corner or open a door (or, as happened earlier today, my seatbelt unexpectedly made an additional retraction into its reel as I opened the door) and I emit the blood-curdling scream (yes, screaming at my seatbelt was embarrassing) I will experience up to a half-second of fear followed by a much longer period of embarrassment or anxiety related to the reaction of the person that I screamed at rather than the event itself.

In extended periods of being in life-threatening situations (at least since late childhood) I did not experience anything that I perceived as fear, and as I got older and more capable of bringing peaceful resolutions even if a deadly weapon is involved, I experience an intense calmness. I used to go into shock for up to five minutes after the situation was resolved, and I figured that was a result of adrenaline clearing from my body too fast. The frequency that happens decreased to the point that I don't know if it happens anymore or not, but although others have perceived that some situations could have been dangerous, I have not been in a situation that I considered carried a significant risk of death or serious injury in a couple of years. Yet I screamed today when my seatbelt moved unexpectedly, and I jump at loud noises even when I know they are coming and expect them (desensitization did not cure my startle reflex for me, and that seems to be the one symptom that shows the least liklihood of resolution for anyone).

I agree with that, I was actually speaking more about over coming a particular fear. I think that with most humans you can probably startle them multiple times each day, and no matter what they would jump or scream every time. The "startle reflex" is something I believe to be "hard-wired" into us. It is pure instinct, which is why I think it's funny to watch people get startled, they have no control over it.

Yes, I think what I experience with snakes is more of an instinctive 'startle' then it is fear, because like I said, I have no fear of picking them and handling them.

However, if I have 'learned' that a particular snake bites, then that image I have of the snake as something that can bite me seems to 'arm' the startle reflex. I can diffuse this startle reflex by learning that the snake won't bite. If I feel confident it won't bite then then my relflexes relax.

With very, very small snakes that bite, my reflexes don't want to be bit, and my imagination is even consciously affraid of the pain, however, I have voluntarily let smaller snakes bite me just to feel my reflexes tighten, struggle and then gradually die after witnessing the little snakes inability to make me feel any significant degree of pain.

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Hey Ryan, I find that story about you putting water spiders on your face a little hard to believe only because I've witnessed those water spiders in action. I remember them as being really quick and hard to catch, even though they are quite big. And did you get bit? Or were you told that they bite?

I heard water spiders (a relative of wolf spiders) actually bite.

I was never afraid of the regular web-spinning spiders around my house, I would play with them as a child (that is until I got bit by one one day)

But I was always leary of wolf spiders and water spiders.

I can't imagine a water-spider staying on your face then any longer than a milli-second and I can't imagine him not biting you.

But maybe I was afraid of a myth.

Oh yeah, and your story about the football player....

Don't you think that you were startled simply by the sudden-ness of such a large animated figure?

Surely our ancestors would have evolved a fear of large creatures that suddenly attack.

However, maybe throughout grade school your imagination dwelled on the idea that your fellow human beings are dangerous and unpredictable - especially the ones bigger than you. And so, rather than genes, it may have been simply a few years of conditioning by the imagination and accumulated beliefs off the street.

Cory wrote:

Hey Ryan, I find that story about you putting water spiders on your face a little hard to believe only because I've witnessed those water spiders in action. I remember them as being really quick and hard to catch, even though they are quite big. And did you get bit? Or were you told that they bite?

Actually water spiders do not bite, but I have no idea about wolf spiders. Yes, they are incredibly difficult to catch (like catching a fly with chopsticks) and they don’t stay on the face very long at all. The boys ran when I had it in my hands and was in the process of putting it on my face. I should have been clearer in my description.

Cory wrote:

Don't you think that you were startled simply by the sudden-ness of such a large animated figure?

This is it. I was startled, it was a reflex.

Cory wrote:

I was always leary of wolf spiders and water spiders.

I understood that wolf spiders do not bite, and that they eat other spiders. I also understood that the only poisonous spiders are black widow spiders and the brown recluse. Since all three of those are rampant in my area, I have intentionally let wolf spiders stay in my house if they happen to wander in. The last one I named George. Wolf spiders are quick, and they (like the brown recluse) do not leave webs, so it's just a matter of cleaning up the body after it dies. They're big and quick, so they do unnerve most people.

Nick wrote:

which is why I think it's funny to watch people get startled, they have no control over it.

The last place I worked as a respiratory therapist, my co-workers thought my startle reflex was great fun to play with. They even had it timed down to how long it took between yelling "bang" or hitting the table before I would startle again (if they did it too soon, I was already tense so there wasn't a noteworthy tensing of the muscles).

I was always scared of wolf spiders and water spiders, 'cause I heard they bit. Reading about Ryan putting one on his face made me wince.

If I learned that something bit, I was afraid of it.

Oh yes, I twas a girly boy indeed.

I used to have a hamster, and of course I wasnt afraid to pick him up, but one day I touched him while he was sleeping and he drew blood on me - and since then I never touched him again (because there didnt seem to be a moment when he wasnt sleeping) once time I poked him gently with a pencil and he lashed out viciously.

He was one of those white hamsters with redish eyes.

Because of that attack on me, he went from being seen as a white fluffy hamster, to a red eyed hamster.

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Oh yeah, here's another neat little story about natural 'reflexes'

Once as a small child (ok I was 23 years old) I was staring down into a very small pool of water (I think I was gazing at my own reflection, smiling)

Suddenly, right in the dead center of the pool, I noticed there was a drowning caterpillar struggling to gyrate itself to the shore.

The water-skippers who also inhabited the pool surrounded this caterpillar and each took turns at head-butting it. Any progress that the caterpillar made in his feeble attempt to make it to the shore was annulled by the water-skippers who pushed him back to the middle.

Yes, thats right, the water skippers seemed to be cooperating toward the task of making sure the caterpillar stayed in the center of the pool - Although I question whether they were consciously trying to make the caterpillar drown. (I find it hard to believe they were that conscious)

Maybe they were simply taking turns striking it.

It was peculiar watching malice and violence manifest in such a idiosyncratic situation, a situation so far removed from ordinary human consciousness.

I scrunched my eyebrows and muttered: "there is no god".

But then suddenly I had an eureka. My eye-brows relaxed and my mouth hung open a bit.....for you see, I then reached down and plucked the caterpilar out of the water and put it on the grass to dry out.

Yeah thats right.

I was God.

I stood up, brushed my hands, and looked up at the clouds with a smile. I put my hands on my hips and laughed heartily.

However, my smiling gaze was suddenly broken by a (more than just a 'little' involuntary) urge to move my bowels.

I ran home instinctively (and perhaps irrationally) holding my ass with my left hand, sometimes with both hands, running in a funny way, and with a pained expression.

- The end -

[readers, as you probably noticed, the malicious, nimble and quick water-skippers live in a very two dimensional way, and the caterpillar - although very feeble in his less mature physical state - was a being with the potential to fly]

If you interpret this story in the way that I want you to, then you will find yourself experiencing the liberating sensation that 'getting the shitty end of the stick in life' really just means your super special and destined to be saved by god and to transform into a creature of flight.

Cory wrote:

I was God.

Yes you were, and you still are. In my view, we are all pieces of God - and your example shows how we can use our power. Extrapolate that out so yo can see how you can use your God-power for other things in your life. God can save or smite, but we are His hands, eyes, and ears.

It sounds like your hamster got sick (or old). It is common for people to look at things one way, then look at them another way in the light of a new experience - but that can be akin to separating out the spectrum from white light into ROYGBIV, and only looking at it through the red light. By adding the light of all parts of the spectrum, our vision becomes more reflective of the whole truth.

(okay Cory, so we're back to talking about rainbows, aren't we?)