GENIUS FORUMS

Hi people, I'm back again (I posted a lot here many years ago and sporadically since then)...

I finally got done with my degree in AI. I decided to work towards this because of my combined interest in computers and philosophy. Obviously, the most relevant part of philosophy is philosophy of mind. I have felt as though I am well suited to play a part in some major paradigm shift in how we build strong AI and felt drawn to this path from a fairly early age.

Now that I am no longer a student (though I may return to do a PhD at some point) I've finally come to a sort of deadline for deciding what I should be doing with myself. Last time I was here, I was asking for advice essentially about how to become Enlightened (on the thread: http://www.theabsolute.net/phpBB/viewto ... =10&t=3208). This was largely because of my expectation that I would be facing quite significant life decisions soon - when I graduated – which is now.

I'm still as unsure about things as I was then. In the thread I linked to above, I was asked some questions that have troubled me ever since...

About 2 years ago, I became suspicious that becoming "Enlightened" has very little to do with needing to make some kind of logical or analytical breakthrough, or of convincing oneself about the validity of anything abstract at all. Rather, I am suspicious that what is required is some form of higher class of experience, perhaps intuition, or whatever you might call the act of "experiencing with the 3rd eye".

This suspicion came about because although I understand a lot of the arguments given by those who claim to be Enlightened, and in the most part agree with them, I still feel as though I am missing something crucial. And I don't think this kind of doubt comes packaged with Enlightenment.

Anyway, the question I was asked was: "Why do you seek Enlightenment?". The best answer I can come up with is that as I stand just now, just out of university, I have no idea what I should be doing with my life. Clearly I will always be a Truth seeker, but beyond that, what should I be doing? I am convinced that if I could really see reality for what it is – intuitively – i.e, become Enlightened – I would be much more capable of making the “right” decisions. The decisions I make now will have a large impact on me in the future, and in time, perhaps many more people than just me.

My parents would like nothing better than for me to immediately get engaged in some graduate recruitment program for some giant corporation and start earning as much money as possible. But I am much more interested in working on something that has value beyond simply the speed and efficiency that it can pull money out of the pockets of the population and into mine. Or should I be? Perhaps I should get involved in whatever industry I want, even if it does no real good for anyone. - Just so I can get money and power and then justify my pillaging by using my position to make the world a better place… somehow. As you can see, I’m not really very sure about very much.

Maybe Enlightenment actually has no bearing whatsoever on Worldly Matters, except to highlight their significance. Perhaps these niggling little problems like whether or not I should help “save the world from corruption” seem about as substantial to the mind of someone who is Enlightened, as relationship problems inside Second Life (http://secondlife.com/) seem to the mind of someone who doesn’t play computer games.

I thought perhaps people might like to ask questions about AI since that’s the kinda discussion I’d like to be involved in! :-D A fundamental issue is – can computers have consciousness? My answer – I did a degree so I’d be better suited to answer that question, but in the end, I still have no idea.


Anyway, nice to see GF is still going strong, though perhaps a little too well in a certain sense…..

Andrew

Maybe Enlightenment actually has no bearing whatsoever on Worldly Matters, except to highlight their significance.

That was supposed to be: "except to highlight their insignificance."

Consciousness is closely tied to memory, which computers have. So I think that if computers are configured similar to how a human brain is configured then yes they could very will become conscious. Giving a computer multiple methods of sensory input and the ability to access their memory the way the human mind does would be a start.

Andrew,
Consciousness transcends thinking, including logic, including all possible programing, even all potentials for responding to new ongoing input (as per "data processing.")
Enlightenment is realization that "I am consciousness", not, in any sense, its content... even the concept of "personal self/identity."
This Truth can "set you free" if you can real-ize it beyond "thinking of it" as just another "object in consciousness", i.e., a concept.

mikiel

Start with the US military and certain projects funded for DARPA.

As much as the military industrial complex gets on some peoples nerves with the draining funds otherwised used to support large tracts of domestic parasites.


Consider that the world will indeed be better off with forms of AI that aid in advanced weapons and defense development.


The sooner all the morons on this planet die off due to warfare or lack of skirmishes about religious goop the sooner we can get to the important business of finding a way out of this shithole as a species.


So honestly the enlightenment you speak of desiring to know is held with contacts that are similar to DARPA only their big brothers.


Sure it's intimidating but if you have earned the credentials why not give it a shot.

Worst that can happen is you play an unwitting role in helping a bunch of asshat "geniuses" with more "money" and power than we can all imagine becoming the successors to our species through quantum AI and beyond.




The potential side effect being that everyone alive when we finally clean up our genome and act gets a small chunk of whatever lies at the end of that road.


I am going to tell you that I saw a craft that quite frankly would depend on AI.


One night over salem oregon.

Thats another story involving meta materials and possible wormholes.

But hey you can play a part in all that shit....so to hell with the consumer economy.

Go where the non-fossilized shit is still steaming.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC7i4HULYYk

Andrew wrote: About 2 years ago, I became suspicious that becoming "Enlightened" has very little to do with needing to make some kind of logical or analytical breakthrough, or of convincing oneself about the validity of anything abstract at all. Rather, I am suspicious that what is required is some form of higher class of experience, perhaps intuition, or whatever you might call the act of "experiencing with the 3rd eye".

While you do need to develop new skills in inner observations ("the third eye") you also need new relations descriptions and categories to think in. Do not underestimate logic or the abstract. Realize that the way you see the world is shaped by your concepts, and most of them are corrupted. The logical mind is the only hope to escape from the cycle of confusion.
Clearly only few will escape since the logical mind is saddled with corrupt concepts and models, while the affective mind (which is much more powerful) riddled with energy wasting habits is in complete disarray.

An enlightened person would be one, whose logical mind has developed correct models for the world, and has made the affective mind healthy. A normal person would have a hard time understanding him, since they do not share the same concepts and model of the world.

I suggest you read Gurdjieff (In search of the miraculous) to get at least a reasonably correct model of the world.

Andrew, later on today or tonight, I'm going to start a separate thread on the latest theories on how the neocortex works, and how that empirical knowledge can be used to create the most rudimentary forms of A.I that will eventually evolve into increasingly complex intelligent machines.

It will just take me a little while to think about how I want to go about explaining it...

Andrew wrote:Hi people, I'm back again (I posted a lot here many years ago and sporadically since then)...

Hi Andrew, it's me again, we met all those years ago on that other forum. Exciting* to see you back here.

I finally got done with my degree in AI. I decided to work towards this because of my combined interest in computers and philosophy. Obviously, the most relevant part of philosophy is philosophy of mind. I have felt as though I am well suited to play a part in some major paradigm shift in how we build strong AI and felt drawn to this path from a fairly early age.

It's cool that you're so into AI. To me, strong AI is right up near the pinnacle of current human striving; it's a fascinating and exciting* subject indeed. I'd like to put some serious effort and thought into it at some stage, see if I could achieve anything there. I don't have any formal education in it, but I do sometimes wonder(and hope) if not knowing too much about conventional ideas and theories in the field could give me, or others, fresh eyes that might help in creating a major breakthrough. The field is at a stage where I think that this is still a viable possibility. So I actually have intentionally avoided getting too knowledgeable about the nitty gritty of the subject, in order to avoid poisoning this possible advantage.

Years ago I conceived of, and planned the early stages of a CYC-like(before I had heard of CYC) AI but rapidly came to the conclusion that this avenue was likely doomed to failure(in so far as strong AI was concerned.) At the moment I'd favour trying a much more bottom-up "organic" approach. One of the problems with that approach being, though, that it could be very difficult to tease out anything specific, such as the often sought after human-like intelligence. That might all sound rather ignorant to your educated ears.....

About 2 years ago, I became suspicious that becoming "Enlightened" has very little to do with needing to make some kind of logical or analytical breakthrough, or of convincing oneself about the validity of anything abstract at all.

So you're not a fan of CYC either ;)

Rather, I am suspicious that what is required is some form of higher class of experience, perhaps intuition, or whatever you might call the act of "experiencing with the 3rd eye".

Hey speak for yourself! I'm a high-class logician - for your information.

This suspicion came about because although I understand a lot of the arguments given by those who claim to be Enlightened, and in the most part agree with them, I still feel as though I am missing something crucial. And I don't think this kind of doubt comes packaged with Enlightenment.

Hang on, so you're saying you don't think doubt would exist in the enlightened mind/state?

Anyway, the question I was asked was: "Why do you seek Enlightenment?". The best answer I can come up with is that as I stand just now, just out of university, I have no idea what I should be doing with my life. Clearly I will always be a Truth seeker, but beyond that, what should I be doing? I am convinced that if I could really see reality for what it is –

Stop right there. "if I could really see reality for what it is" This sounds like the classic "searching for what reality really is" that I found myself engaged in for years. Put slightly more succinctly it amounted to simply "searching for reality", in my case. There is an irony and absurdity in that, can you see? I'm not sure if you're heading down that same absurd path though. Are you?

intuitively – i.e, become Enlightened – I would be much more capable of making the “right” decisions. The decisions I make now will have a large impact on me in the future, and in time, perhaps many more people than just me.

My parents would like nothing better than for me to immediately get engaged in some graduate recruitment program for some giant corporation and start earning as much money as possible. But I am much more interested in working on something that has value beyond simply the speed and efficiency that it can pull money out of the pockets of the population and into mine. Or should I be?

How about you first invent a strong AI, then have the strong AI advise you on all your decisions, then take the strong AI as your guru and let it guide you to Enlightenment. I'm sure there'd be plenty of cash in it too. Problem solved!

Perhaps I should get involved in whatever industry I want, even if it does no real good for anyone. - Just so I can get money and power and then justify my pillaging by using my position to make the world a better place… somehow. As you can see, I’m not really very sure about very much.

The ends versus the means. It seems so many people choose a dull life and employment journey with the dream of a final fulfilling destination. How many of them get the life sucked out of them by their shitty job and then have the "reward" of retiring with a half-dead body and mind; pottering around the garden and house they have finally payed off. Not that I'm necessarily beyond that problem myself, and not that most people have anything but a half-dead mind to begin with.

Maybe Enlightenment actually has no bearing whatsoever on Worldly Matters, except to highlight their significance. Perhaps these niggling little problems like whether or not I should help “save the world from corruption” seem about as substantial to the mind of someone who is Enlightened, as relationship problems inside Second Life (http://secondlife.com/) seem to the mind of someone who doesn’t play computer games.

Someone on heroin might think these problems insignificant too....

I thought perhaps people might like to ask questions about AI since that’s the kinda discussion I’d like to be involved in! :-D A fundamental issue is – can computers have consciousness? My answer – I did a degree so I’d be better suited to answer that question, but in the end, I still have no idea.

The fundamental problem remains that I can't even prove that other humans are conscious. All I'm left with is "appears to be conscious", inferred from certain actions.

I'd argue, that in theory, simply given enough of the right conditional "if...then" statements, the outward appearance of any system could be simulated/recreated, including the appearance of consciousness.

Obviously that's not a very satisfying way to approach these issues for a lot of people, and if we assume that the universe is finite, we may rapidly approach limits to the scope of such an "AI" too.

And if we go further with that line of reasoning, then in principle, any measured reaction, any conditional statement as it were, could be said to be intelligent in a sense, and may be seen as a sign of consciousness. That would make all computers intelligent and displaying the appearance of consciousness. Hell, it would arguable make any action and reaction a type of intelligence and sign of consciousness, right down to the way atoms and molecules behave.

Of course you may have a rather more reigned-in definition of intelligence and consciousness.

As you may be able to tell, I have a strong tendency to take things, especially philosophical and analytical things, to their extreme limits. Cool ain't it.

Anyway, nice to see GF is still going strong, though perhaps a little too well in a certain sense…..

I'm curious as to what you mean by that exactly.


(*Don't let my high use of the word "excitement" fool you into devaluing it - I've got enough excitement to go around for all of us.)

Some impressive and fun AI:
Twenty Questions
(Click "Other Games" at the top right, then "Classic 20Q")

Nick Treklis wrote:Consciousness is closely tied to memory, which computers have. So I think that if computers are configured similar to how a human brain is configured then yes they could very will become conscious. Giving a computer multiple methods of sensory input and the ability to access their memory the way the human mind does would be a start.

I have one question to ask you sir Nick about this idea, below:

"What makes you think that computers are not ALREADY conscious?"
How would you test for this?
M

Andrew wrote:Hi people, I'm back again (I posted a lot here many years ago and sporadically since then)...

I finally got done with my degree in AI. I decided to work towards this because of my combined interest in computers and philosophy. Obviously, the most relevant part of philosophy is philosophy of mind. I have felt as though I am well suited to play a part in some major paradigm shift in how we build strong AI and felt drawn to this path from a fairly early age.

Now that I am no longer a student (though I may return to do a PhD at some point) I've finally come to a sort of deadline for deciding what I should be doing with myself. Last time I was here, I was asking for advice essentially about how to become Enlightened (on the thread: http://www.theabsolute.net/phpBB/viewto ... =10&t=3208). This was largely because of my expectation that I would be facing quite significant life decisions soon - when I graduated – which is now.

I'm still as unsure about things as I was then. In the thread I linked to above, I was asked some questions that have troubled me ever since...

About 2 years ago, I became suspicious that becoming "Enlightened" has very little to do with needing to make some kind of logical or analytical breakthrough, or of convincing oneself about the validity of anything abstract at all. Rather, I am suspicious that what is required is some form of higher class of experience, perhaps intuition, or whatever you might call the act of "experiencing with the 3rd eye".

This suspicion came about because although I understand a lot of the arguments given by those who claim to be Enlightened, and in the most part agree with them, I still feel as though I am missing something crucial. And I don't think this kind of doubt comes packaged with Enlightenment.

Anyway, the question I was asked was: "Why do you seek Enlightenment?". The best answer I can come up with is that as I stand just now, just out of university, I have no idea what I should be doing with my life. Clearly I will always be a Truth seeker, but beyond that, what should I be doing? I am convinced that if I could really see reality for what it is – intuitively – i.e, become Enlightened – I would be much more capable of making the “right” decisions. The decisions I make now will have a large impact on me in the future, and in time, perhaps many more people than just me.

My parents would like nothing better than for me to immediately get engaged in some graduate recruitment program for some giant corporation and start earning as much money as possible. But I am much more interested in working on something that has value beyond simply the speed and efficiency that it can pull money out of the pockets of the population and into mine. Or should I be? Perhaps I should get involved in whatever industry I want, even if it does no real good for anyone. - Just so I can get money and power and then justify my pillaging by using my position to make the world a better place… somehow. As you can see, I’m not really very sure about very much.

Maybe Enlightenment actually has no bearing whatsoever on Worldly Matters, except to highlight their significance. Perhaps these niggling little problems like whether or not I should help “save the world from corruption” seem about as substantial to the mind of someone who is Enlightened, as relationship problems inside Second Life (http://secondlife.com/) seem to the mind of someone who doesn’t play computer games.

I thought perhaps people might like to ask questions about AI since that’s the kinda discussion I’d like to be involved in! :-D A fundamental issue is – can computers have consciousness? My answer – I did a degree so I’d be better suited to answer that question, but in the end, I still have no idea.


Anyway, nice to see GF is still going strong, though perhaps a little too well in a certain sense…..

Andrew

Hi Andrew. I need to ask what this thing you call "AI".

For your answers about Enlightment, easy to get solution. Just say "Please if anyone here is Enlightend can you tell me what you do in your life and what activities is common to Enlighted men, I read that genius do not work and live ok with few things, one pair shoes, one coat, etc eat beans rice all the time. Will these things be acceptable to me when I join E few? Will my atitude change and I get lazy and spend hours working teaching on internet? This things likely to happen or not? Just tell me straight all E genius reading these words. Thank you.
Andrew."

Do something like this be sincere heart and Im sure Jehu and owner of furum help you plus other E genius here. Ask for what you see if you a fly following them for a week. Would you see meditation many hours? Would you see much sleeping? Or would you see them use internet to masterbate! haha
No serious, dont be shy, they have all answers, then you have clear head about if interest you to be that way.
Good luck!
M