GENIUS FORUMS

It's one thing to think you know what Enlightenment is, and to think of yourself as Enlightened, but there are actual signs that people have when they actually are Enlightened.....what are the signs that people have when they are Enlightened ?

Stating the obvious,

Non-attached

yes...but psycopaths can also be non-attached & you could also be attached to non-attachment.
What else ?

Psychopaths can also be open minded but that doesn't mean open-mindedness isn't a characteristic of enlightenment, the last part is definitely true.


Emptiness,

Freedom from constantly thinking of past or future.

Freedom from the ideas that you have associated in the past.

Disinterest,

Clear vision.... alien/outside view of your experiences.

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Emptiness,

What does Emptiness mean ?

"containing nothing; having none of the usual or appropriate contents"

No thought during sense experience is moving toward emptiness.

No thought and no sense experience is emptiness.

No. Emptiness means that nothing inherently exists. Everything is dependent on causes and conditions . Things do not exist on their own. They didn't just POP into existence, without a cause.

I'm talking about emptiness of mind, having an empty mind.

Yes a cause is self-evident. What do you assign as the cause Kunga?

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:What do you assign as the cause Kunga?

the cause of what ? Life ?

According to the Enlightened One (Buddha), there is no begining and no end. He also said knowing the first cause is an "Imponderable" , which could drive you crazy trying to figure out.
Myself speaking....I don't know.

Buddha did not teach that there is a Creator God that created the Universe. Gods, according to Buddha think they are omnipotent & omnipresent because they have incredibly long lives and feel that they are, but they became gods because of their karma, and they will eventually run out of that karma that made them gods. Also the gods Indra & Brahma requested Buddha to teach after his enlightenment.

Yeah, "inconceivable is the beginning of this samsara" Buddha

He also didn't say there wasn't, and that might be possible about these demi-god style beings, not that I've ever seen any, but remember the Buddha was just a man, he was not all knowing about what goes on outside of this existence, ....even if the texts make him sound like a divinity and many unaware buddhists pray to him, you can't take everything said as literal and true.

There's no such thing as "signs of enlightenment". What a funny notion.

I think he means common characteristics of enlightened persons.

Dan Rowden wrote:There's no such thing as "signs of enlightenment". What a funny notion.

Are there signs of drug abuse or depression ? If so, there can also be signs that a person is awakened or awakening . For instance......a murderer would stop killing, and have hatred (or mental illness) replaced by wisdom and compassion.

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Yeah, "inconceivable is the beginning of this samsara" Buddha

He also didn't say there wasn't, and that might be possible about these demi-god style beings, not that I've ever seen any, but remember the Buddha was just a man, he was not all knowing about what goes on outside of this existence, ....even if the texts make him sound like a divinity and many unaware buddhists pray to him, you can't take everything said as literal and true.

Buddha appeared to us as a human being, but he was actually a God before he appeard here as a human. And yes he was omniscient

http://orias.berkeley.edu/visuals/buddha/LIFE.html
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... ep_aw.html


Also from Wiki :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya


Maitreya currently resides in the Tuṣita Heaven (Pāli: Tusita), said to be reachable through meditation. Śākyamuni Buddha also lived here before he was born into the world as all bodhisattvas live in the Tuṣita Heaven before they descend to the human realm to become Buddhas. Although all bodhisattvas are destined to become Buddhas, the concept of a bodhisattva differs greatly in Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism. In Theravada Buddhism, a bodhisattva is one who is striving for full enlightenment (Arahantship in Pali), whereas in Mahayana Buddhism, a bodhisattva is one who has already reached a very advanced state of grace or enlightenment but holds back from entering nirvana so that he may help others.

Enlightenment is often spoken of as realization. Realization of enlightenment. Since realization occurs in the present, this implies that enlightenment exists in the present.

Realization allows awareness to pierce delusion that fogs ever-present enlightenment. Is there a time when enlightenment does not exist in the present? The present moment of realization marks the change from un-realized to realized, and that moment is the sum total of a life.

If you haven't had a life-changing experience, you will. When life changes it feels like everything has changed. What seemed important becomes less so, what seemed insignificant gains importance.

When it feels like everything has changed, a natural curiosity arises to see what has changed.

Thus for the purpose of enquiry within the limitations of expository writing, a refinement: Keeping in mind that within the human temporal condition change is a relative description comparing what is to memory of what was, and since realization is a change from unrealized to realized, is realization of enlightenment also subject to temporal conditions, and are there physical changes that accompany realization of enlightenment?

Cahoot wrote: is realization of enlightenment also subject to temporal conditions, and are there physical changes that accompany realization of enlightenment?

No, once you realize...there's no going back. The only thing that changes physically is how you percieve yourself in the illusion of causality...you feel this sense of blending together with the phenomenal world of appearances....all is of the same essence...

Cahoot wrote: The present moment of realization marks the change from un-realized to realized, and that moment is the sum total of a life.

But even the so-called "un-realized" are realized, as there is nothing to realize, as all IS (no need for the ALL IS to be realized)

Cahoot wrote:Realization allows awareness to pierce delusion that fogs ever-present enlightenment. Is there a time when enlightenment does not exist in the present

Yes, I know that's why Dan thought my statement a "funny notion".

Cahoot wrote: Since realization occurs in the present, this implies that enlightenment exists in the present.

Yes, as "the present" is all these really is...the illusion of time is for conventional purposes.


























BTW...I know I am not even close to Enlightenment....I still harbor thoughts of ill-will & hatred. But I tried very hard not to post these horrible thoughts I had the past few days...and my daily life is still filled with unwholesome thinking & actions. I am aware of these things though....to me, signs that someone is Enlightened would include :

1. a sense of selflessness/living in a state of oneness continuously 24/7
2. overwhelming love & compassion for others that is tireless & continuous
3. knowing everything (omniescient)
4. special abilites (that you do not flaunt)


I wrote this (above) before I saw your posting Cahoot. Yes, I know what realizing is (realizing the nature of reality as emptiness)

Still, I do not have the behavior of one that has fully integrated his realizations in my relation to the Truth of reality.

Don't you think there are behavioral changes once you've "become" Enlightened ?

Of course, Gunga. Everything changes all the time. After enlightenment, everything continues to change. After enlightenment, everything is a sign of enlightenment. Some things get bigger, some things get smaller. But that happens anyway.

Since realization of enlightenment is not subject to temporal conditions, then the temporal condition of "behavioral changes" is irrelevant to that which is not subject to either behavioral changes or temporal interpretation.

Which makes signs of enlightenment an illogical consideration.

Something else to consider is ... are temporal conditions subject to realization of enlightenment, and if so, what are the limitations? And then it gets into miracles.

Cahoot wrote:Since realization of enlightenment is not subject to temporal conditions, then the temporal condition of "behavioral changes" is irrelevant to that which is not subject to either behavioral changes or temporal interpretation.Which makes signs of enlightenment an illogical consideration.

Yes, I realize the parody...but there has to be a way to explain conventional behavior changes, even amist the changeless nature of Emptiness...as it is changeless/change :D

Oy Vey !

Cahoot wrote: Something else to consider is ... are temporal conditions subject to realization of enlightenment, and if so, what are the limitations? And then it gets into miracles.

I already covered that one :

Kunga wrote:But even the so-called "un-realized" are realized, as there is nothing to realize, as all IS (no need for the ALL IS to be realized)

Try this on.

until you know who you are is empty and meaningless you don't know anything.
until you know that, everything you know is a means to an end.

until you 'get' yourself as a space without meaning, without content,
you can only come from an Identity.

for instance, a US Marine comes from an Identity.
a cultural Identity,
He/she has gone to the Soldier possibility for human being and has fully immersed in that Identity,
wears the uniform, thinks the thoughts, feels the feelings, does the actions concomitant to US Marine.
He/she comes from that Identity.
What they know is a means to an end.

until you know yourself as that, that is without meaning, without content,
you can't come from nothing.

to come from Identity which is 'a fitting in' to a conceptual construct is to come from a cardboard cutout.

Culture is like a cookie cutter making gingerbread men.
the dough is kneaded, placed in a tray,
the cookie cutter comes in and shapes the dough into gingerbread men and places them in the oven.
cooked and ready to serve.
a means to an end.

A Christian, a buddhist, a muslim, a capitalist, a communist, a psychologist, a scientist,
are gingerbread men,
operating out of a set of options as a means to an end.

Culture requires gingerbread men of various types in order to function.

who you are actually is an empty space,
a clearing,
in which conceptual constructs show up as possibilities for Identity to engage in as a means to an end.

You are nothing and a means to an end.

beware the cookie monster!

what is the end in sight,
what do you know for the end in sight,
what is the Identity taken on as a means to that end.

Dennis...has your behavior changed since your awakening ?
It's quite a simple Q&A.

Are you more hostle towards others ? Or are you more compassionate ?
Do you bitch about all the injustice in the world ? Or are you calmer, like in the eye of a storm ?
Do you go out and buy more stuff and horde it ? Or are material possessions not as important anymore ?
Do you crave for attension ? Or are you happy without it ?
Do you lust after women more than ever ? Or has your lust subsided & you see sex as primitive & repulsive ?

Are you more hostle towards others ? Or are you more compassionate ?

you can give all that horseshit about 'oneness' the flick.

right here, right now it is a You and Me world.
let's have a You and Me world without suffering too much.

Do you bitch about all the injustice in the world ? Or are you calmer, like in the eye of a storm ?

It is what it is.
why fuss.
just don't make it worse from your side.

Do you go out and buy more stuff and horde it ? Or are material possessions not as important anymore ?

2 hours meditation beats the hell out of 2 hours on a pogo stick as a means to an end.

Do you crave for attension ? Or are you happy without it ?

Sometimes interaction, sometimes not.

Do you lust after women more than ever ? Or has your lust subsided & you see sex as primitive & repulsive ?

What that means is,
you have to meet the Fokkers,
fuck off!

Dennis Mahar wrote: until you 'get' yourself as a space without meaning, without content,
you can only come from an Identity.
...
He/she comes from that Identity.
What they know is a means to an end.

What if "becoming enlightended" would act as such an identiy, a role to fall into, an act to play - would that be a means to some end?

Yeah Dennis...or have you acted this way all your life ?

When I breakthru,

I love you because I love you.

My causal stream of thoughts/feelings never loves you.
Your causal stream of thoughts/feelings never loves me.

When I breakthru,
I breakthru' my causal stream of thoughts/feelings ABOUT you.
I love you because I love you.

When I don't breakthru,
my causal stream of thoughts/feelings sizes you up and I have to look for reasons to love you and you never quite fit the bill in such a way that I'm blown away in ecstasy.
My causal stream of thoughts/feelings finds blemishes to keep you away and make you manageable.

When I breakthru',
my causal stream of thoughts/feelings disappears.
I love you because I love you.
I'm blown away in ecstasy.

What happens now is your causal/stream of thoughts/feelings will size that up and turn it in to shit.

I don't give a shit about the shit you make out of it.

There are no 'the answers'.