GENIUS FORUMS

I'll get to the point.

How do you justify disbelief in the classical notions of God...as an all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolant personal conscious being who transcends time/space and created the universe....etc

What makes you think that classical-God doesn't exist. I'm more interested in logical proofs than personal experiences, opinions and lack of evidence arguments.

hades wrote:I'll get to the point.

How do you justify disbelief in the classical notions of God...as an all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolant personal conscious being who transcends time/space and created the universe....etc

If "universe" is defined to be everything, then it is not logically possible for it to have been created - since there is nothing other than itself.

That should be proof enough.

But it is also not logically possible for a conscious being to be all-knowing, since there are infinite things happening in the universe, and it wouldn't be possible to have a mind large enough to know them all. The only thing large enough to contain that amount of information is Nature itself - the Totality. And it is not conscious, since there is nothing for it to be conscious of, since it is everything.

Well god is defined as transcending space/time/matter

So I don't think the "his mind isn't big enough" argument is sound...

There are problems with omniscience, like, if God knows everything then he must know atleast everything we know. Well, we know what its like to learn.
But God can't know what its like to learn because he 'knows everything'...except what its like to learn...so he can't know everything....it seems self-defeating.

hades wrote:Well god is defined as transcending space/time/matter

Since the universe is "everything" it necessarily includes anything which might transcend anything.

why do you define universe as everything?

nothing exists outside in your opinion?

the notion itself is a paradox in our universe.

its abilities cannot exist together.

What is "the universe", Loof?

LooF wrote:why do you define universe as everything?

The "Uni" part of universe means "One". It is one without a second. That's why it is everything. It would be silly to purposely exclude something from the universe. It includes the known and the unknown.

hades wrote:How do you justify disbelief in the classical notions of God...as an all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolant personal conscious being who transcends time/space and created the universe....etc

Why are you interested in that particular concept, rather than investigating the existence of Zeus, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, the Flying Spagetti Monster, etc.?

The only thing that seems to give the typical, popular notion of God any weight is that it is accepted by a large number of people.

So where did that particular concept come from? I think Freud gives a pretty good answer: it is a projection, it fills a psychological need that people have to feel that someone is in charge, that there is a Big Daddy somewhere. It is a relief from personal responsibility.

Also, it gives this big drama, a story line; this huge battle between Good and Evil, God and Satan; a story of a beginning (creation) and an ending (Judgement Day). If there's one thing people love, it's a good story. Somehow people feel that this story gives their life meaning.

What makes you think that classical-God doesn't exist. I'm more interested in logical proofs than personal experiences, opinions and lack of evidence arguments.

I don't think you can logically prove the non-existence of something so ill-defined. The typical religious notion of God is very vague. The vagueness is then backed up by an idea that questioning it too closely is heretical or sacrilegious, or that it is mysterious and beyond human understanding, and so on.

All in all, it has the earmarks of the sort of thing people believe in because they want to believe in it, rather than something that has an actual rationale behind it. So, while I can not logically disprove it, I don't see any reason to take the notion seriously.

Finally, I don't have a specific notion of God, but it seems to me that if there were such a thing, it should be so immediately obvious that any talk of existence would be silly, on the line of doubting the existence of the sun. That this all-powerful, benevolent being would take such incredible pains to hide his own existence seems particularly inexplicable.

ksolway wrote:If "universe" is defined to be everything, then it is not logically possible for it to have been created - since there is nothing other than itself.

And if its not defined as 'everything' ? Because thats not the scientific definition of the word....

It is defined roughly as : the realm in which we live including all observable and perhaps unobservable matter/energy, galaxies, intergalagtic space, dark matter, etc...

It doesn't really matter how scientists define the word, because the issue is essentially a philosophic one, not scientific.

The core question is, "How did everything arise?" And the question automatically answers itself. By definition, there has never been a time when "everything" hasn't been around.

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DavidQuinn000 wrote:It doesn't really matter how scientists define the word, because the issue is essentially a philosophic one, not scientific.

The core question is, "How did everything arise?" And the question automatically answers itself. By definition, there has never been a time when "everything" hasn't been around.

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Everything is too vague of a term. The scientific definition is by far better.

At one time everything could = God.
Then another everything could = God + the universe he created.
Your idea doesn't negate God.

Hades:

How do you justify disbelief in the classical notions of God...as an all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolant personal conscious being who transcends time/space and created the universe....etc

Well, first ... It is said that God created the universe. Well then, who created God?

And the answer that is commonly used is that "God has always been" ... Well, why isn't the answer that the universe has always been, just as valid?

Now, about the "all-powerful, benevolant, kind, good intentioned God". If God created absolutely everything, then he created Evil. If he was good intentioned and a kind being, he would not have created Evil... So therefore he's not benevolant.

If God created Evil knowing the destruction and pain it would cause, then he is actually diabolical and far from benevolant. If he didn't know the damage that Evil would bring, then he isn't all-knowing. Either way, he wouldn't be perfect.

Also, God has never been able to defeat or do away with Evil, which makes him not all-powerful.

Oh yeah, and have you noticed that each and every god that has ever existed in the past-- has only existed for as long as the people who believed in them lasted (i.e. The Pharoah gods aren't considered real anymore because no one believes in them.. Same as the Roman gods, and all the other gods that people used to believe in).

Would this present God still exist if no one believed in him anymore also?

hades wrote:

ksolway wrote:If "universe" is defined to be everything, then it is not logically possible for it to have been created - since there is nothing other than itself.

And if its not defined as 'everything' ? Because thats not the scientific definition of the word....

Science defines words in a way that is useful for science, and philosophy defines words in a way that is useful for philosophy.

Since we, on this forum, are interested in certainties, we use philosophical definitions, since science can never provide certainty.

It is defined roughly as : the realm in which we live including all observable and perhaps unobservable matter/energy, galaxies, intergalagtic space, dark matter, etc...

Ok, so you are attempting to give the scientific definition. What do you mean "perhaps . . . ". That is an extremely vague definition. And why limit the kinds of things included in the universe?

Imagine looking up the definition of "dozen" in the dictionary, and it says "12, or perhaps some other number".

Everything is too vague of a term.

It can't be vague. At least, once you know what a thing is, then you know what everything means.

At one time everything could = God.
Then another everything could = God + the universe he created.
Your idea doesn't negate God.

There could be some character called "God" who goes about creating so-called "universes" (scientifically speaking), in much the same way that we create, say, computer games. But, to me, that character is just that - a character - essentially the same as us, though with perhaps a little more power. We might ourselves be able to create "universes" in the future. And, scientifically speaking, we can in fact create universes right now - since the scientific definition of "universe" is so piddling. For example, we can erect a cardboard box, and have a "universe" inside the box.

Hades wrote:

DQ: The core question is, "How did everything arise?" And the question automatically answers itself. By definition, there has never been a time when "everything" hasn't been around.

H: Everything is too vague of a term.

It may be vague in your mind, but not in mine. By "everything", I literally mean everything. Matter, energy, time, space, other dimensions, gods - everything. If anything exists at all, it is necessarily a part of "everything".

It's not a difficult notion to understand.

The scientific definition is by far better.

Sure, if you're not interested in ultimate answers.

Your idea doesn't negate God.

It does make God redundant.

This is why the Buddha used to say that he had no interest in the existence or non-existence of God or Gods. It is irrelevant as far as the spiritual path to wisdom is concerned. And I agree.

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DavidQuinn000 wrote:Hades wrote:

DQ: The core question is, "How did everything arise?" And the question automatically answers itself. By definition, there has never been a time when "everything" hasn't been around.

H: Everything is too vague of a term.

It may be vague in your mind, but not in mine. By "everything", I literally mean everything. Matter, energy, time, space, other dimensions, gods - everything. If anything exists at all, it is necessarily a part of "everything".

It's not a difficult notion to understand.

The scientific definition is by far better.

Sure, if you're not interested in ultimate answers.

Your idea doesn't negate God.

It does make God redundant.

This is why the Buddha used to say that he had no interest in the existence or non-existence of God or Gods. It is irrelevant as far as the spiritual path to wisdom is concerned. And I agree.

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If you haven't eliminated God you haven't eliminated the philosophical ramifications he brings with him....think some more

But I have eliminated God, on the grounds of irrelevancy.

The Christian God is on the same level as aliens from another planet. It is a trivial issue, philosophically speaking. Whether or not Gods/aliens exist has no bearing on my understanding of the nature of Reality and my capacity to reach perfection.

This is a profound point. Do you understand it?

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DavidQuinn000 wrote:But I have eliminated God, on the grounds of irrelevancy.

The Christian God is on the same level as aliens from another planet. It is a trivial issue, philosophically speaking. Whether or not Gods/aliens exist has no bearing on my understanding of the nature of Reality and my capacity to reach perfection.

This is a profound point. Do you understand it?

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If the Christian God exists then faith is more important, because your faith will determine your future. And the only way to even begin to 'reach perfection' would be to worship him somehow..

So in this case, yes it is relevant that you eliminate god 100%, and what becomes irrelevant and worthless are your various philosophical ideas about the world and how it exists....
So either logically prove God doesn't exist, eliminate him from this world, or your worldview will always be plagued by what-ifs and ghosts.

ok?

DQ: The core question is, "How did everything arise?" And the question automatically answers itself. By definition, there has never been a time when "everything" hasn't been around.



the question itself is asked from the point of view in which time is already included, so answer is invalid



im too used to living with what i know





justification
first

his abilities conflict so he cannot exist

second
the definition of his abilities depend entirely on people

third

free will?

fourth

his creation gone bad?

and theres probably million more

If the Christian God exists then faith is more important, because your faith will determine your future. And the only way to even begin to 'reach perfection' would be to worship him somehow.

If the Christian God exists, then, as David has explained, he is an alien being of some kind. Faith in such an alien being is irrelevant so far as enlightenment is concerned. Both conclusions are reached by pure reason, and are thus unassailable.

In order for you to speak about God, you really need to first define exactly what you are talking about. Since this is something no Christian has been able to do, I think you will have a hard time of it.

So, before you ask any more questions about God, please give us an exact definition of what it is you are talking about - otherwise what you are saying is necessarily meaningless, and we will be unable to respond.

For example, are you talking about a powerful alien being?

So in this case, yes it is relevant that you eliminate god 100%,

Let's define God to be "a square circle", and if you don't put your faith in this square circle you can't reach perfection - because, according to scripture, that is the nature of the square circle.

Do you think you need to eliminate the possibility of such square circles before you can reach enlightenment?

Loof wrote:

DQ: The core question is, "How did everything arise?" And the question automatically answers itself. By definition, there has never been a time when "everything" hasn't been around.

L: the question itself is asked from the point of view in which time is already included, so answer is invalid

More accurately, the question is invalid. And because the question is invalid, it has no answer.

In other words, it is a contrived dilemma which doesn't refer to anything real.

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ksolway wrote:

If the Christian God exists then faith is more important, because your faith will determine your future. And the only way to even begin to 'reach perfection' would be to worship him somehow.

If the Christian God exists, then, as David has explained, he is an alien being of some kind. Faith in such an alien being is irrelevant so far as enlightenment is concerned. Both conclusions are reached by pure reason, and are thus unassailable.

In order for you to speak about God, you really need to first define exactly what you are talking about. Since this is something no Christian has been able to do, I think you will have a hard time of it.

So, before you ask any more questions about God, please give us an exact definition of what it is you are talking about - otherwise what you are saying is necessarily meaningless, and we will be unable to respond.

For example, are you talking about a powerful alien being?

So in this case, yes it is relevant that you eliminate god 100%,

Let's define God to be "a square circle", and if you don't put your faith in this square circle you can't reach perfection - because, according to scripture, that is the nature of the square circle.

Do you think you need to eliminate the possibility of such square circles before you can reach enlightenment?

Lets be gentle and define him as an extremely, intelligent, and powerful 'alien', so you can comprehend him better.
An alien who watches every detail of your life, and has the power to manipulate your world in anyway he sees fit, because in reality you are simply a brain in a machine he operates.

2000 years ago, his son logged into the world and was sacrificed. The rules of the world changed after that point.
Those who believed in the alien's son's death and worshipped him were sent into another virtual reality that consisted of pleasure, truth, peace and harmony, very similar to the aliens reality.

Those who did not worship and have faith were sent to a different virtual reality, one where you were clinically insane, unable to reason and think straight, there existed excessive pain, noise, anger, and hallucinations and suffering beyond measure.

He can keep you alive forever in which ever reality you end up in.

So obviously, it is in your best interest to worship this alien, and forget your pursuit of petty ideals and enlightenment... unless you can prove without a doubt that he is not real.



This being knows and has the power to do anything logically possible in your world.

Where is your explicit proof that he does not and can not exist?

hades wrote:Lets be gentle and define him as an extremely, intelligent, and powerful 'alien', so you can comprehend him better.
An alien who watches every detail of your life, and has the power to manipulate your world in anyway he sees fit, because in reality you are simply a brain in a machine he operates. . . .

He can keep you alive forever in which ever reality you end up in. So obviously, it is in your best interest to worship this alien, and forget your pursuit of petty ideals and enlightenment... unless you can prove without a doubt that he is not real.

I can't disprove the existence of any particular alien being. But such a being is irrelevant to me - just as any alien being is - unless I can find some scientific proof for his existence.

It might be the case that the closer I come to truth, and the more I seek truth, the more angry this "God" becomes with me. And if I push him too far with my love of truth he might strike me down dead because of it. In that case it would pay me to find out as much as I can about this "God" so I can attempt to defeat him.

It would serve me to make alliances with an alien that is even more powerful than this "God", if I can find one.

An alien who watches every detail of your life, and has the power to manipulate your world in anyway he sees fit,

In fact, this would be logically impossible for such a God, since he would himself be subject to the forces acting upon him. If his universe forces our own world to be a certain way, against "God's" wishes, there will be absolutely nothing he could do about it. For example, our "universe" might be eaten by his cat. His universe is more powerful than him.

ksolway wrote:
I can't disprove the existence of any particular alien being.

Or god-being
:(

But such a being is irrelevant to me -

Irrelevant. The issue is not solved.


sigh

hades wrote:The issue is not solved.

The issue as to whether there is a powerful alien called "God" is not solved. But the issue as to the extent of his powers is definitely solved. This powerful alien "God" is a slave to the powers of the universe he exists in, along with such things as the habits of his cat, if he has one.