GENIUS FORUMS

Jesus Camp Closes

Pastor will shut down controversial kids camp

By Religion News Service and The Associated Press

The summer camp featured in the documentary "Jesus Camp," which includes scenes with disgraced preacher Ted Haggard, will shut down for at least several years because of negative reaction sparked by the film, according to the camp's director.

"Right now we're just not a safe ministry," Becky Fischer, the fiery Pentecostal pastor featured in "Jesus Camp," said Tuesday.

The documentary, which hit select U.S. theaters during the summer, portrays Fischer, 55, as drill instructor to a group of young evangelical children steeling themselves for spiritual and political warfare.[....]

Halle-fucken-lujah!

Flippen crackpots.

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Dan Rowden wrote: The summer camp featured in the documentary "Jesus Camp," which includes scenes with disgraced preacher Ted Haggard, will shut down for at least several years because of negative reaction sparked by the film, according to the camp's director.

I wonder how much Haggard's disgrace had to do with this, compared to the video itself.

Hmm, hard to say, though the timing is interesting. Since the whole thing is lunacy and lunatics have a tendency to not see or care about their lunacy when it's pointed out to them, I'd tend to think Haggard's disgrace was an important factor.

Bob: Ted's looking a tad.

Bill: Haggard?

Bob: Yes.

Dan Rowden wrote:Hmm, hard to say, though the timing is interesting. Since the whole thing is lunacy and lunatics have a tendency to not see or care about their lunacy when it's pointed out to them, I'd tend to think Haggard's disgrace was an important factor.

Yes, if I have learned one thing from spending way too much time with Baptists it is that they take pride in their idiocy. "Foolishness to the world" is a favorite passage...

Story from Zen Master Hakuin:

I know a wealthy family in the province of Shinano. They have a large inherited fortune, and the influence they wield rivals that of the provincial daimyo himself. The family is so large that they must ring a dinner bell to call them all together. The great and powerful are frequent visitors. Although they have no family business as such, they have been able to maintain a quiet and comfortable existence.

But recently they started brewing sake. They added male and female servants to the staff. The water mill now grinds away day and night hulling rice. A continuous procession of grain carts thunders heavily in through the gates. Their prosperity has increased tenfold over what it was before. Ten thousand bushels of rice are said to be consumed daily in the brewing of sake.

An old man living nearby and witnessing these events, said: "Those folks are finished. Their prosperity cannot continue much longer. What you now see is really a symptom of serious trouble. When the inner workings decay, the outer aspect always swells like that. They will probably try their hand at selling grain. Or open a shop to sell medicinal herbs. But before long they will have to dispose of them too."

When my teacher Shoju Rojin heard the old man's prediction, he heaved a heavy sigh.

"I know just what he means. Since the Sung period, our patriarchal school has been in constant decline. Zen monks have extended their interests into a variety of different fields. It's just like the family in that story."

As he finished speaking, his eyes were swimming in tears.

Do you guys think this principle of the "swelling outer aspect of a freshly killed thing" can be considered a universal principle? And if so, do you think religion is swelling in the same way and will start to disappear now? It seems like religion is very unfashionable and is being attacked on all sides these days.

What would happen if this "New Atheism" became the new fashion in religion? Wouldn't a monoculture like that be a bigger nightmare than having a bunch of competing religions?

Matt Gregory wrote: Do you guys think this principle of the "swelling outer aspect of a freshly killed thing" can be considered a universal principle?

Sometimes great "reward" comes at the cost of losing the base from which it came (killing the goose that lays the golden eggs), and just because a unit (be it family, congregation, or business) does well at one size does not translate into doing well at another size (in fact, often it does not). A freshly killed thing does not always produce great growth (most new-start businesses fail, and often the incalculable costs of starting a business destroy other aspects of the entrepeneur's life as well).

do you think religion is swelling in the same way and will start to disappear now?

I believe the swelling aspect refers to a rapid growth in a short period of time. I don't see that religion took on a rapid swell. I think what happened to Christianity is more like the game "telephone" that small children play where a message starts off as one thing, but by the time the message is whispered from one child into the next child's ear all the way around the circle (and somebody added something, someone else forgot part of the message, etc.) the message is not the same. Most people have a preference for the truth, and many people go to religion for the truth, but by now the message is so watered down and distorted by generations of priests (bishops, popes, whatever) adding their own little spin on it that the original truths that were good enough to start the religion are no longer there enough to hold even the members that were born into the church, much less recruit many new people.

It seems like religion is very unfashionable and is being attacked on all sides these days.

I think your perception is much a matter of the company you keep. There are many segments of many societies where a particular religion is socially mandatory. A friend of mine went to Utah on a business trip, and just out of curiosity on how much the Morman religion permeated the local culture, he asked a waiter if they served alcohol. The waiter gave him an angry reply, and I believe directed him across state lines as the closest place. Also if I recall correctly, it is unusual to find caffinated bevereges in Utah - all because of religious permeation into the local culture. "The Bible Belt" in the southeast US is another large area with a lot of peer pressure to be religious, but there are also many small communities where religion is a must. Finally, those born into a church are often groomed to be part of "the flock." If one is getting good social support from within the church, it can be difficult to break the herd mentality even if the individual does not agree with the doctrine.

What would happen if this "New Atheism" became the new fashion in religion? Wouldn't a monoculture like that be a bigger nightmare than having a bunch of competing religions?

How so?

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

Matt Gregory wrote: Do you guys think this principle of the "swelling outer aspect of a freshly killed thing" can be considered a universal principle?

Sometimes great "reward" comes at the cost of losing the base from which it came (killing the goose that lays the golden eggs), and just because a unit (be it family, congregation, or business) does well at one size does not translate into doing well at another size (in fact, often it does not).

Hmm, I think scaling is a different problem from ostensible growth due to losing the fundamental direction of something. That would be real growth, albeit short-lived. What Hakuin was talking about can't be considered growth at all because it's growth of the wrong thing.

MG: do you think religion is swelling in the same way and will start to disappear now?

EI: I believe the swelling aspect refers to a rapid growth in a short period of time. I don't see that religion took on a rapid swell.

What about the televangelists and all of the growth due to the media? Do you think religions for the most part have held to their original principles through the technological and economic changes we've been going through for the past hundred years or so?

EI: Most people have a preference for the truth, and many people go to religion for the truth, but by now the message is so watered down and distorted by generations of priests (bishops, popes, whatever) adding their own little spin on it that the original truths that were good enough to start the religion are no longer there enough to hold even the members that were born into the church, much less recruit many new people.

This could never happen to someone who really cares about truth itself. Most people hate truth more than death itself.

MG: It seems like religion is very unfashionable and is being attacked on all sides these days.

EI: I think your perception is much a matter of the company you keep.

I was thinking of mostly universities and the media.

MG: What would happen if this "New Atheism" became the new fashion in religion? Wouldn't a monoculture like that be a bigger nightmare than having a bunch of competing religions?

EI: How so?

It would mean less freedom of thought. Scientists would be the new priests and the arbiters of truth. I predict that scientific research is going to come to a halt someday because the cost is going to outweigh the return. When that happens is when it's going to get dangerous. If people are still able to speak freely then it will probably be okay though. If not, then everyone will think in the same way.