GENIUS FORUMS

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:But, since I know as a matter of fact that I have less wisdom to speak of than the moderators.

you know this as a matter of fact eh???? Where's the proof that you have less wisdom than them?

Faust,

you know this as a matter of fact eh???? Where's the proof that you have less wisdom than them?

I don't need proof to convince myself of something so trivial.

enlightenment = bullshit and lies!!!!

z

z, if you define it to be so, then it is so.

However, I recommend you look into how, say, Buddha defined it.

The test is real simple. Try soma, in a sacred space, at a sacred time, in a sacred way.
You dont need to commit weeks or months to learn to meditate. One nite will suffice for the vast majority of us. It dont seem to do much for the retarded or demented. Altho, there's some who think it is curative for the latter.

But over the course of that nite, "enlightenment" is a common experience. All you have to do is have the balls to try an experiment with the way your mind works. If you cant, or wont, perform the experiment- ie to use an entheogenic compound to achieve an altered state of consciousness, then you have no way of knowing what those who did perform the experiment know.

S: #1 - It can't easily be verified to exist, if it can at all.

DR: I can't verify that a man loves his wife. Can I thereby say he doesn't? Anyway, it it good that you view enlightenment as a hypothesis. You should view it that way.

Love can't easily be verified to exist, but it can by looking at what chemicas are being released in the brain, oxytocin or whatever. Real love is to also the same thing as good ethics, which is about how one acts. And by that sentiment your actions seem very unsagelike.

S: If a supposedly enlightened man speaks, we do of course have the possibility of discrediting him should he utter an obvious falsity, such as "I'm enlightened, and I know everything". Or, since the enlightened man apparently has no emotions, if he reponds emotionally, or overly passionately, we would also discredit him. Easy enough.

DR: It's not that easy. You need wisdom for that.

It is that easy, all you need is a little logic.

S: #2 - Unfortunately, there are ways to get around these two tests easily enough. I don't want to prejudge as I'm new to this board and have not read here extensively, but from what I've seen from Dan Rowden, he is a master of answering questions without really saying anything to actually support him being enlightened, yet neither denying it.

DR: I am enlightened and I deny it. Seems pretty clear to me.

Are you always this lame, or is it just when someone calls you out?

S: Maybe my understanding just isn't great enough yet, but nevertheless, it comes across as someone who knows the words that allow him to dip and dodge.

DR: Yes, I love to dip and dodge; my life has changed since I learned that strategy.

And in the process you've failed to realize that this authority position that you've taken up is a LIE.

S: I see value in zennish teachings, but they say nothing of the person who says them.

DR: They do if and when you get them. That you don't know that means you don't get them.

No, for instance you and Trev say a lot of "wise words", but your actions on this board are fairly childlike.

S: There is an article of faith involved since none of you can prove it.

DR: What? I can't prove A=A? It's true, I can't, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. You don't know what "proof" means.

Oh masta, thank you for this wisdom! What are you trying to say, enlightenment is true by definition? If you know so much why don't you actually put some effort in and teach, cause honestly, if this is you teaching your skills suck.

S: "Keep on destoying your emotional attachments, and some day there will be no more to destroy and you will be enlightened." Yet there is no proof this process works, or will actually end in enlightenment. And call me crazy, but if I'm going to run a marathon, I'd like to know theres a finish line.

DR: You know the finish line exists in a marathon? Really? Without belief?

lol, you're such a loser. :) I can easily go to the finish line and verify its there. But there is NO WAY to prove enlightenment.

<But there is NO WAY to prove enlightenment.>
Well, besides those methods that require months of marathon training, there have always been entheogenic sacred potions that do the job in a single night.

Read what Cicero had to say of his nite in the Great Telesterion Hall tripping on what we now know are Lysergic acids:"Among the many excellent and divine institutions that your Athens has developed and contributed to human life, there is none, that in my opinion, better than these mysteries, by which we have been brought forth from our rustic and savage mode of existance, cultivated, and refined to a state of civilization: and as the rites are called 'initiations', so, in truth, we have learned from them the first principles of life and have gained the understanding, not only to live happily, but also to die with better hope."

But no, you can only answer this question for your self, and one of the ways to do that is to use some compound to produce an altered state of consciousness in the sacred place, at the sacred time, and in the sacred way. If you dont want to perform the experiment, I dont have a problem with it, but nothing you can say will have any impact whatever on those who have.

Note, that by the time Cicero attended the rituals had been going on for a thousand years or more, with 4000 in the Telesterion every year since Pericles expanded the hall. Nobody ever ratted. How do you account for that *fact*? Everyone in the Roman world knew about Eleusis, but nobody ever wrote a report during that whole thousand years. There is not even a mention of a report despite all the *millions* who, over the centuries attended from the time of Pericles up until Justinian had the place pounded into rubble.

And- why was Justinian so assiduous in his destruction? So may other places were merely coopted.

So saith a sage:

No, for instance you and Trev say a lot of "wise words", but your actions on this board are fairly childlike...

...lol, you're such a loser. :) I can easily go to the finish line and verify its there. But there is NO WAY to prove enlightenment.

skipair, you aren't even worth the effort. Your own words condemn you.

I discipline a lot of children using words they understand, but such does not make me a child.

daybrown,

Well, besides those methods that require months of marathon training, there have always been entheogenic sacred potions that do the job in a single night.

If you believe that a drug can bring you enlightenment, you do not know what enlightenment is.

P.S. If Siddhartha Gautama had obtained enlightenment through drug use, and not hard work, he would not have been recognized as a Buddha for one simple reason: he would not have been more enlightened than all other men in India.

"Your own words condemn you."

Yes, I've stated before that I know I'm not any better. But a child knows the difference between other children and an adult, and you old friend, are most definitely a child. And since you're all into giving orders and threatening, it might be best to order youself to consider for a bit that you aren't as knowledgable as you think you are. Because, and I'm not the only one here who thinks this, you're kinda a joke.

I would know, I'm a jokester.

-ps- please put your picture back up. I enjoyed imagining your mouth moving while you so eagerly try to put everyone in their place.

pps - I'd like to go drinking with you sometime to make sure you still can be silly once in a while. Very theraputic.

If I hadn't already condemned you, I might have taken this post of yours seriously. Alpha-male ego games aren't that interesting, though.

Well, drink offer stands, and I'll be having gin, so you're welcome to pull up a chair whenever and chill. Later,
-Skipair

Why dont you try to tell a Mayan Shaman who provides Pscilocybin based potions to his initiates that he is not enlightened? Does any here see the racist attitude in this expresssion?

EW Barber, "The Mummies of Urumchi, reports on the oldest Asharams ever found, in the Kara Kum, abandoned 4000 years ago, both with the standard set of monk cells and a meditation hall. But also, both had a sacred apocathery with a sacred altar/workbench with bowls on the floor, intact after 4000 years, with ephedra, opium, and cannibis. at both locations.

Its noteworthy, that over the course of 4000 years, all that happened was that desert dust accumulated on the roofs until the beams gave way. There was, over all that time, no desecration, not even grafitti. One helluva protection spell.

Now, if you dont wish to try one of the ancient sacred potions like Soma, or dont see any need for enlightenment, or wish to try one of the other methods like mediation, tantric sex, hynotic drum, dance, and/or chant, I dont have a problem with it. But the Vedas are full of songs to Soma because, of all the methods, it was, and still is, the most reliable method for most people that can be successful over the course of a single night. If you wanna try weeks, months, or years in a monestary, I dont have a problem with it. But unwarrented dismissibility of these ancient potions strikes me as a sign of a lack of enlightenment.

If you are truly enlightened, why would you care how shamen and witches did it? But if you are not, and want us to believe that it is not possible, then of course, you dont want other people to try an entheogen. And if you can convince them of your position, I dont have a problem with it. But dont try to come and tell me what I know. I'm sure Cicero would have the same reaction.

Wasson cites Aritides the Rhetor in the 2nd century, 200 years later, saying that the initiate experienced something that was "new, astonishing, inaccessable to rational cognition." Which anyone who has done LSD will completely understand. "Eleusis is a shrine common to the whole Earth, and of all the divine things that exist among men, it is both the most awesome and the most luminous. At what place in the world have more miraculous tidings been sung, and where have the dromena called forth greater emotion, and where has there been greater rivalry between seeing and hearing?"

Well, "The Yellow Submarine" on Sandoz Sunshine is a more modern version. Altho, Pscilocybin works well for some as well. The Greeks had a phrase for some shrooms, "broma theon" meaning the 'food of the gods', an attitude still held by Mayan Shamen.

If you look into it, you see that symposiums, like that of Plato's, were catered events. The bartender came with a bag of tricks, and used the famous Greek "Krater" to prepare the brew. The Greek meaning of the name "Krater" is "mixing bowl", but we can see from the craftsmanship, its special. Well, it was. The barkeep brought broma theon, opium, and other extracts which he mixed with the wine, which was always watered down at least 3:1, but sometimes 20:1. They were not getting drunk. Nor, did you belly up to the bar. The barkeep sent servants to each guest delivering what *he* thot the guest needed. The kind of thing shamen still do. So- Plato's Symposium is really a stoned rap. And again, those of us who have had stoned raps, thoroughly understand.

In the Illiad, we read where Helen adds "Nepenthes" to the wine being served. Same idea. Somewheres in my sources (damn wish I could remember where), I have the conversation between Roman Gov Quintillianus, of Ionia, an Epoptes, and Pionius, a Christian zealot, soon to be martyr. Neither of them is afraid of Death, but understandably, the former, at the apex of power enjoys life, while the latter cant wait to get off the planet, and would welcome the chance to do it like the Jihadim; only in this case, he dont get to take any apostates with him.

Both are absolutely convinced of the truth of their position, each dissmissive of what the other relied on, be it the altered state of consciousness at Eleusis, or the gospel. One think it is Satanic possession, the other that its mythic drivel enscribed on parchment. So, what's the diff?

The zealots have committed genocides ever since Joshua, and began stoning heretics early on. The Epoptes never started a war in the name of Dionysos or Demeter, and never had heresy trials, much less inquisitions. Have the Atheists done any better? Pol Pot, Mao, & Stalin suggest we can judge them by their fruits as well.

Archaeology and scholars like Joseph Campbell, have traced the roots of Levantine myth, and showed how it morphed over time to pander to power. But Emperors came to Eleusis, not the other way around. The last to do so, Julian, was a far more noble spirit than his Christian successsors.

Neurology has also weighed in on this tracing the biochemistry of the mind and the neural pathways that are affected by the state of enlightenment. Which is the same whether to meditate with the Dali Lama. or drop acid with him. He says the experience is the same. So- science shows that there is something going on, and it is not necessarily delusional. Not that some wingnuts dont get really out there- and are understandably concerned that they wont come back.

daybrown, I've gone the drug route. It does not lead to a thorough and logical understanding of reality; consequently, any delusions it removes are simply replaced by others. You may as well be trying to convince me that when I'm in the midst of a manic episode, I am thinking more effectively than when I am sober.

What women and most men call enlightenment is often a transitory mental state -- or animalistic delusion. That is not what the Buddha referred to; nor is it what anyone here refers to, unless, it so far appears, they are doubting the existence of enlightenment. (And, in that case, ironically enough, they are doubting something that they are currently exposing themselves to.)

To doubt enlightenment is similar to doubting any of the other facets of the human mind. If you have a poor imagination, that is not reason to doubt that people can imagine things.

You can claim this is racist all you want, but druggies of all stripes are not enlightened. They are deluded.

Doing drugs, as self administered, is not what is going on with Mayan Shamen, nor Ugarit Shamen, nor was it with the Heirophants at Eleusis.

Maybe you missed it, but we see it in all the anthro reports as well as the historical record. Entheogens are only used at the sacred time, in the sacred space, and in the sacred way. Same as with meditation or Tanta.

Entheogens are only used at the sacred time, in the sacred space, and in the sacred way.

Like at 4:20, hotboxing the car, with the hashpipe.

All this crap about "sacred" screams "delusion".

Argue with the Vedas. I dont have a problem if you dont want to try it. There are millions of indigeneous people all over the world who have sacred potions their shamen provide them who would regard your attitude as classically Colonial Christian white racist.

There are also some "sacred pilgramages" being offered now, and some anthropologists reports on the experience. Their professional opinions are dramatically different from your dismissiveness. But you dont have to associate with people who use sacred potions. They certainly wont care what you think. Just dont go there.

The potions are not something you want to mess around with recreationally. Take Soma too often, and you'll have liver failure and be dead in a month. But none of them in current use that I know of are addictive.

Daybrown wrote:

"But no, you can only answer this question for your self, and one of the ways to do that is to use some compound to produce an altered state of consciousness in the sacred place, at the sacred time, and in the sacred way. If you dont want to perform the experiment, I dont have a problem with it, but nothing you can say will have any impact whatever on those who have."

I am a great believer in the psychedelic experience, always after prayer and purification, however one does that and understands that. I tend to agree that the entheogen experience is likely the beginning of all religious experience, and codification. It seems to all go back to the shamanic experience. Because this is so, and because the entire structure of our rational mind, the prepared mind, the mind that 'endlessly and neurotically dissects grammer and uses grammer to dissect life ;-) came way way after the shamanic mind (if you will permit me the liberty of this term), I think that connecting to the original experience, or an experience that circumvents the mind, is very important. Also it is interesting the way that these plants tend to 'instruct' that prepared mind, and do it good. (Thinking of A Huxley in Doors of Percpetion...Heaven and Hell, etc).

The plant teachers (*applause sounding from all sides, from inside, from outside, from the ground and from the sky*) are the best wisdom teachers going, and they reveal everything without ever saying a (fucking!) word. Yay for the plant teachers!

Now we have to work of the Sacred Recipies for the Genius Forum: 9 grams of dried cubensis, after 3 dropperfuls of salvia divinorum (green goddess elixor) held under the tongue for 15 minutes. I recommend reciting the Gayatri mantra (or your own favorite hymn to the sun and to the life giving force) for a half hour. Some soulful libations to the ground under your feet, maybe some incense offered to those winds that blow through the creation? May your experience be like unto a Sunflower Sutra...

Want some soundtrack?

http://www.pandora.com/?tc=x-014394-003 ... tring+Band

(Success in your next incarnation will depend on what song you got.)

Progress with the plant teachers, nevertheless, depends on some other factors. I tripped with my last GF, and her experience was not at all like mine. When she described it to me I realized that the plant was operating of wholly different levels, they hardly touched her. You might recommend the classic '9 grams of dried cubensis' to the average person but they are not necessarily going to have an experience that touches what we mean when we say 'enlightenment'.

Uh-oh, been a naughty boy, might have to go to hell for a few hours!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69b2Fcd4 ... ed&search=

The term 'enlightenment' (I think) has been terribly distorted. Who can really say what it is? No matter what, you are going to have to live your life.

I think everyone's sense of or belief in their 'enlightenment' should be tested with a big dose from time to time. If I were staking so much on divorcing myself from the feminine, I would sure and shit want to check in with the plant teachers to see what they and another version of myself thought of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Z00tEM ... ed&search=

Well, thats some of the kewlest stuff I've heard in a long time Alex. But I'm not gonna rag on those who dont get it. I mean, after all, cyberspace is monodimensional, able to penetrate other dimensions, and therefore other realiities, among which there prolly are some in which 'drugs' are never more than delusion.

I would not want to live there myself, but if they are OK with it, I cant bitch. It seems that no matter where you go, the thread of destiny (which is also monodimensional) seems to setup different subroutines in the software of the various virtual realities existance continues on. Among which, there are those who just cant handle *that* reality, utterly convinced that what they get to see is all there is.

I usta play the Sitar, so I recognize some ancient riffs in what the Incredible String Band is doing. The photo in the 3rd link looks like Hippy Hillbillies, so I feel like I know who these people are, and can see that they too feel the connexion with our common Aryan past, which in my world goes way back before what people now think of as 'neo-pagan' or 'wiccan'.

From a software standpoint, it'd be simpler if several realities all made calls to the same subroutines, but what defines each reality are the unique combinations that prolly include subroutines that are only used in their own Matrix. And of course, if you exist in a Matrix that lacks calls to most of these common roots, then of course, reports from other Matrixes about them make no sense.

In my Matrix for instance, the Aryans were the first really wide spread multi-cultural society, which left pieces, like the Sitar riffs in India, but other pieces in Celtic Europe, and still others in the Silk Road towns of what is now NW China. But whether you go to Urumchi, Amritsar, or the Transylvanians, there will be some who can hear the Incredible String Band, and feel like they understand the music. And- some who dont.

There are aspects of my Matrix that dont make any sense as well. Like, we see the effort to recover ancient music. Just as in the West we have terms like "orwellian", "polemic", or "mosaic" that derive from some personality in the past that have become meaningful terms in English, so also Tocharian is full of the names of song titles, rather than personalities, that are descriptive in ways we may never recover. But its a clue as to whereas they refer to works of art, we refer to egos.

The 5000 year old Goddess temples on Malta have niches carved into the rock, kinda like shower stalls all around the walls of the main chamber, each with a different volume, that like a shower stall, resonates at a different pitch. It would be a simple matter to go into each with recording equipment and discover what the scale of the chants, like those the Incredible String Band uses, actually was. But I cant find a link or even an email address of anyone in a position to look into it.

It must have been a powerful enlightening experience however, 5000 years ago, when the audience, in the center of the chamber, was actually *inside* the musical instrument, with "choir" members in each of the alcoves, singing perfectly on pitch because only perfect pitches resonate. There must have been, by now, many musicians among the tourists that go there every day, yet none of them have picked up on this. That, like I said, just dont make sense. The thread of destiny only allows certain experiences to be had in my Matrix.

Likewise, we are familiar with the 12 tone scale. There's an ashram in the Kara Kum, 4000 years old, with 12 tiny 'cells' that look to me as having served a similar function. The archeological report is that each was originally was just plain white plaster in each cell. This is in stark contrast to the vivid imagery of Vedic art all over the walls of later Ashrams. An oddly apropos pun.

Crop circles are beginning to look like Mandalas.

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Like at 4:20, hotboxing the car, with the hashpipe.

lol! I vote for a GF field trip to Tomas' "friends" house for some healthy escape rituals. FWIW I chowed down an 1/8 of boomers a few years ago and "figured out" the meaning of life: Don't stress. Actually fairly accurate I think, but easier said than done.