GENIUS FORUMS

<I also hope for peace on earth and a chicken in every pot, did i mention that?>
Well there is a way to get that in the so called Holy Land. It begins with the new lie detection technologies that are far more effective than anyone imagined.

Use FMRI brain scans on the most important subjects. If you show the man a photo of a known terrorist, and he knows the man, part of his occipital lobe will fire up, whether he says anything or not. If you then show him the house you think was used to support terrorist activities, again, his brain will light up in the memory region.

With a VR version of Jerusalem for instance, you find identify most of the place a subject was at in the previous 24 hours. Whether he wants to be cooperative or not. There are Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others living in the Levant who just want to pursue their careers and live in peace. There is also a large cadre of fanatics on all sides that are simply too crazy to be fully functional and use the excuse of terrorism to vent the rancor of their impotence.

With the former, just wanting to live their lives, the new lie detection technologies wont be a problem. They dont consort with the terrorists, dont know where the bomb factories are, or make deals for weapons with psychopaths. if offered the choice to be implanted with an RFI chip that would identify them as soon as they enter the door of a business, bus, school, or other public place, they would not have a problem with it. But that'd be a bitch for a suicide bomber.

How do you maintain a terrorist conspiracy without being able to deceive others? Why is this not already in place? Well, how can you maintain a corrupt government if it is?

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Since they are living in the same area as the Kurds, many of them since many ages and while not minding being a minority in a shared territory they will rise up the moment the Kurds would declare a state in any manner.

Because, heaven knows, this is what all the ethnic minorities have always done when a nation-state is declared...

It's a matter of writing oneself into ones own history and call it nationalism. That never works for long.

it undergirds the modern world. nationalism is a transitional stage of the state, the stage when it acquires geopolitical coherence. it is a condition which is arguably transcended eventually, but it does have a lot to offer in the process of development.

That says not even one iota about "Jewish habitation in Israel".

Sure it does. Read it more carefully. The fact that the determinant used was one for nomadic people doesn't negate the fact of jewish habitation (rather than statehood or settlement) in Israel; which was what i had claimed. If you disagree with the interpretation of the hieroglyphs as naming Israel, take that up with the egyptologists who seem to overwhelmingly interpret it thusly. neither you or I are competent to second-guess their analyses.

Then of course there is the Mesha Stele, which predates your magical '700 BCE' date by about a century and a half, which is written in an ancient dialect almost identical to ancient hebrew, which explicitly mentions one 'Omri king of Israel', and which incidentally seems to mention the house of David (though this cannot be confirmed). The Mesha stele, BTW, implies that there had already been an established kingdom of Israel of some sort (not necessarily the 'one kingdom') probably a generation before 950BCE, and that by that time it was already strong enough to conquer at least parts of Moab.

Really, when it comes to these matter there's hardly any fact to base decisions or claims on.

What bullshit. The only disputation you make is of jewish presence before 700BCE (which Mesha Stele proves pretty conclusively). However, even if jews had lived there only since 700BCE, that would still be perfectly fine secular reason to call Israel 'the land of my fathers'. You are the one who is moving the goalposts -- you simply challenged my aside about the earliest known jewish presence in Israel, and now you seem to treat the disagreement about the date as negating the reasons having nothing to do with the specific dates.

You seem to be arguing rather dishonestly here, dude.

And it's amusing you throw the same stuff around as the average uninformed bible basher in discussions. I'm sure it's just coincidence.

Bullshit. You are very sure about how you feel here, you just need to support your predetermined conclusion.

Your 'average uninformed bible basher', dude, uses bible as a historical source. Surely that fact didn't escape your attention when you made this disingenuous jibe. You seem to be deliberately deceptive in order to support your predetermined point.

Excuse me for assuming you'd walk away here with another convenient 'headache'. I've had quite a few biblical discussions over the last decade or so with many biblical teachers and rabbis and they all had to eat their words or left in disgust without answering the challenges. Why would you be any different? How much is invested? I've seen it all before and learned all the weasel words.

I have given you exactly zero evidence to believe that I am a 'biblical teacher' or a 'rabbi'. What's more, not only did you not even bother to explicitly lump me in together with them before ascribing to me guilt by (non-existent) association, you had accused me personally (not just my 'brothers' the rabbis and bible teachers, WTF?!.) of having walked away before when someone called my bluff.

Care to cite a case when I walked away from my bluff, with or without a headache? or were you just throwing random accusations around, seeing what sticks? That would be lying, you know.

The nationalist movement had everything to do with the supposed glory days and its heroes. They were its very fuel, totally merged with Jewish national identity and pride.

Great. Then palestinians have even less of a claim to statehood than jews do, and the case is resolved -- we can all go home, secure in our knowledge that palestinians are not a people deserving of a nation, right?..

Yeah, the two-state solution really addressed this antisemitism.

yes, it did. It let us defend ourselves. 'Never again', have you heard those words?

Conscience, ethics and a general peaceful attitude can indeed be great stumbling blocks for a people;s self-determination.

Since peoples' self-determination is a widely recognized fundamental human right, what you seem to be really saying is that 'Conscience, ethics and a general peaceful attitude' get int he way of human rights.

I suggest you mull that over a little.

But don't let that get in your way, I don't care. I do care about it getting into truth's' way.

Given your attitude towards facts, both historical and contemporary, I am not sure I can credit you with much care for truth.

Might doesn't make right.

No, it certainly doesn't; but sometimes might is necessary to secure rights, which is what happened in israel. more generally, i don't think many people can expect their right to political self-determination to be handed to them on a platter; for most, it must be won by might, unfortunately. i would love to live in the world where human rights were secured by popular acclaim alone, but that isn't the case.

You don't have much sense for poetry, do you, crippled as it may have been? It was a play on the crucial (for the religious Jew) biblical saying about the "God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob".

yes, i got that; but in doing so, you tried to smear me with the religious brush, and I will not be subjected to this. it was a nice attempt to imply guilt by association, dude, but that dog won't hunt. Next time you are feeling poetic, try to express it without accidentally framing it in logical fallacies and cheap demagoguery.

Anyway, I meant to imply that all of your 'fathers' claimed any form of Israel historically on religious grounds and inspiration, and that it was not just about living there and sharing the land.

Not the jews who founded modern israel now, no?..

And the most famous forefathers in the Jewish culture are still mythical, religious icons, not historical.

So what? most peoples have their history intertwined with religion. plus, we have had no nation for two millenia (khazaran kaganate doesn't count as 'our nation'), so our national history is kinda long in the tooth. There's not much to be expected that far back except for myth, now, is there? But the ethnicity is real, and now Israel once again is real.

Alex,

I am not completely denying the power of myths to persist, and trauma even more so in the collective subconscious. I myself think a lot about the inquisition and the witch trials, which did incredible damage to the psyche of women. Unlike this board, I think women today are the weakest in their confidence in their womanhood and their personhood than at any time in history. I think we not only haven't recovered, I think the fallout is continuing. And worse, it is possible that the genetics of white European women was decreased in quality, because many of the women killed as witches were organized against the government, and were healers, known as 'wise women.' I've especially thought about it since Daybrown points out that Jewish women are smart and independent. It's true! I've known lots of Jewish women like Shardrol.I did look up the book you recommended about it on Amazon and read all the reviews and I think I got the gist of it. Perhaps if I actually read the book it would convince me a little more.

Nonetheless, much of what you say does not resonate with me. I have never really seen much antisemitism, nor certainly the sort of stuff you talk of. I do realize a lot of people consider
Judas terrible, but I never took it that way. To me, he was a necessary part of a detailed plan. Furthermore, according to the story he repented. In fact, it looks like he never expected the result of his betrayal to be so gruesome, because he threw the silver on the floor in front of the sanhedrin or priests.

Mel Gibson's trashy violent porn movie I would never watch.

But what I'd like to know is, are certain historical names and facts true. The Rothschild family? Who started the federal reserve? I'm looking at names and dates and documents concerning WWI and WWII. And you are talking about psyches and snakes. But again, I have never thought it was a jewish conspiracy alone. The bothersome part that gives me pause is the primacy of Israel. But these 'new world order' people, to the extent they are an organized group known, more or less, to one another, are Christians and Jews in name only; it's a sham, a front.

But in this story, along comes God's representative who is betrayed by these terrible Jews,

This is true, and yet it is always the status quo folks who are against him, and the multitudes who follow him. It is very unfortunate that the gospel writers probably tried to butter up the Roman authorities by making them rather more innocent, and emphasizing the guilt of the Jews. But it was a Roman execution.

because as it is the Christian mind will always, and does always, identify 'the Jew' as the essential agent of Satan who works in cahoots with 'Rome' to suppress the 'Kingdom of Heaven'

I really don't know about this. Seems a stretch. Most people in Europe throughout most centuries probably saw no Jews at all.

Daybrown,

I disagree with you as to the meaning of Exodus 21. As to Leviticus 24:20, it enumerages punishments for the Israelites, and says that it will be the same for a stranger, but this does not negate the laws.
I'm not saying the laws were terrible. They weren't great, but they were OK, and a far sight better than much of the European ones that followed.

IIRC, the Torah was reportedly found in Jerusalem in the mid 6th century BC. But whatever; the first thing, is that while it was claimed to be ancient, its written in contemporary Hebrew. Kinda like claiming you found a play written by Shakespeare, but its in modern english.

Nevertheless, I've also read that it was a masterwork of syncreticism, blending two different canons; that of Judah, with that of Israel. This is indicated by all the similar pairs of stories, one set of which is known as the Book of J. That latter has also been claimed to have been written by a woman because of characteristics in the names of the divines, the use of a divine "we", and differences in the way a tale is told, with more emphasis on how the characters feel, rather than what they did.

But be that as it may, an analysis of obscure farmsteads and villages from the era still shows lots of idolatry, but a conspicuous absence of the violence reported by Joshua. For instance, Hazor was a mighty city all right, but it was destroyed 200 years before the putative time of Joshua, so what he destroyed, was a village built on the rubble. which is what was found there. I dont think the fall of the walls of Jericho matches up either.

So, what we have really, is not a military invasion, but a religious conversion. Not that different from what Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius, and the Greek philosophers were doing; a change in the cultural zeitgeist, rather than the conquest by the desert hicks.

Reconstructing the history is complicated also by so many different events, that actually did happen, but not in the time, or perhaps not even the place the Torah says. You can easily see how the Torah plagiarized the Egyptian Book of Dead. The Great Flood really did happen, but they got that from Gilgamesh, the oldest version of which we have is in Mitanni Cuneiform, which reports on the Great Flood of the Euxine basin in the mid 6th mil BC. There are snippets ripped off from Zoroaster as well. The dig at Ashkalar shows that it was their attackers who were, as we now say, "philistine", and that the city was multi-cultural, multi-religious, and ate pork & crustacians.

From what I know of what else that was going on at the time, it was a port that was also on the center of the Frankenscence trade from Ubar headed North up the coast, but also a western terminus of the Silk Road, where goods were loaded on ships bound for the Nile, Crete, Greece, and maybe well beyond. It no doubt was a rich target for barbarians.

And all these threads were woven together with a lot of craftsmanship by a committee that was trying to satisfy both the Northern and Southern tribes of "Israel & Judah". So, all right, a really fine piece of propaganda, produced like Homer's Odyssey, to unite a nation in the face of the Persian threat. But the other thing it did, like Homer, was standardize the font and the language. For the first time in the history we know of, a large portion of the population became literate. It wasnt just scribes pandering to the power elite.

And to an illiterate population to stand up before a crowd, and *read*- far more than anyone could ever memorize- granted sacred text a magical authority. Which still sells well. Course, it didnt succeed against the Persians like Homer did, (why being another story) but that show did go on the road to Baghdad, and eventually up to Sogdia, and all over hellenback since.

Given the genetic diversity of the followers, some people bought into it, some didnt. Obviously, it had more appeal to those smart enuf to learn to read. And given the genetic diversity of the Romans, Byzantines, Moslems, and Ottomans who conquered the place at one time or other, and moved people around like livestock, sorting out just who is "indigenous" is hopeless.

We are where we are, and we need to disempower the zealots who've always plagued the area. One way to do that is to read Schoenfield's "The Passover Plot". I read it back in the 60's, and it makes me feel like I'm living on some kind of Holodeck or Truman show that this masterwork did not utterly destroy Christianity. The dude was not only a first class historian and scholar, but he had access to the Dead Sea Scrolls, and brought to his analysis a wise understanding of the politics and social zeitgeist of the time of Jesus.

His scholarly support for his opinion is tremendous. But the gist of his view is that Jesus set out to fulfill what Jesus thot was the life of "The Righteous One" described in the Essene texts. He planned his arrival in Jerusalem to fit with that scenario. He planned for Judas to turn him in for the sake of fulfilling that prophecy. Judas was in on the plot. The prophecy said that the Righteous One would fall into the hands of the authorities, and be tested by torture. It didnt say he had to die, and Jesus did not, in fact, die on the cross. The Roman guards had been bribed so he could be taken down before he died.

Schoenfield understood the mind of Jesus, and knew the political turmoil in Jerusalem. He also saw where Pontius Pilot was coming from, trying to keep a lid on a powder keg, and showed how the political ambitions of the Pharasees and Sanhedrin conflicted and fed into it to make the plot work.

He does not much get into Pontius Pilot, but now we know that Pilot was one of the more well known Roman administrators sent in to trouble spots. We also know that by this era, it was common for Roman figures to write memiors. Only Pontius Pilot didnt do that cause there wasnt anything significant that happened in Jerusalem on his watch. No, that whole Passion Plot hung out on the back burner until St. Paul got his hands on it, and like Homer, produced a piece of propaganda that would sell better to Roman audiences.

Leyla said:

It’s not at all like tall poppy syndrome. I don’t have an issue at all with any advances any individual makes for society, however he chooses to define himself. I don’t, however, consider the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands as an advancement and I don’t see the whole Israel/Palestine situation as being born from anything even remotely intelligent, frankly.

How would you or anyone really know?

Personally I reckon this whole conflict is great for global society. I rather like it seeing as I am not really involved in it – other people can pay the price and that’s completely fine by me.

The thing is, that this conflict is necessary to defeat the Muslim religion and the Arab arrogance, that has developed from this religion. Without conflict they would not change or would do so too slowly*. The Arab-Jew conflict will bring both sides into the age of enlightenment, that the Aryans started a few centuries ago. It has already occurred for the most Jews, they are not so philosophically backward as Muslim countries are, because they have had to use their brains to survive against the Arabs – they now have good technology and a far more secular society.

I don’t see it as illegal occupation at all – rather I see it as imagined illegal occupation as that suits the underdogs purposes and the purposes of the imperialistic Muslim religion. Israel was won by Jews by purchasing land, superior might and superior international connections. They have 100 times more right to the land than the Palestinians.

* This is the crux of the issue for me, and the only area of uncertainty. Is it better to let people slowly adjust over centuries, or is it better to use catalysts to spurn change and get the problem over in a shorter time. My view is that as the world is already a global community, catalysts are needed to induce more rapid change –we need to do it before Muslims get nukes. Personally, I would take the risk of bombing military facilities in Iran now.



Vicdan said:

'cuz everyone know, jews have different head-tickers from everyone else, right?..

I actually believe this to be true, cause it is. Jews have a fairly distinct personality, and to me this is a major factor in determining ethnicity, so therefore they think slightly differently to every one else. For example, Jews are far more rationally minded than most ethnicities. If they think differently than everyone else, then their brains are very slightly different. That it is mostly culturally caused differentiation rather than genetic doesn’t bother me at all. Still, there may be some genetic influence due to the Jews religious desire to only breed with other Jews for 2 or 3 thousand years.

Of course, one can say the same about any other recognised group – Muslims also think differently –they are more emotionally inclined than rational.

Well, you can certainly argue that any cultural difference is undergirded by some sort of cognitive difference in the average, even if that cognitive difference is itself cultural (culture being self-perpetuating in a cycle of course). However, just imagine Leyla's statement with another adjective in there:

Let me see how this ticks over in your Black head

or

Let me see how this ticks over in your Female head

I think this is a rather instructive exercise.

Imagine? Clearly, in all your flurry, you've forgotten which forum you are on.

Victor wrote:I think this is a rather instructive exercise.

Nice to see the over-inflated, squealing helium balloon finally catch on.

Ah, Leyla pipes in again, as dumb as ever.

Bloody good show, dear girl.

<Personally, I would take the risk of bombing military facilities in Iran now.>
That's not necessary, but you havta think like Machiavelli to see it. The EU & US are playing goodcop/badcop with Iran over the nukes. Without the badcop, the Iranians would not pay any attention to any EU proposals.

We dont need to nuke or bomb Iran now, be we do need to *LOOK LIKE WE WILL*. And who better right now to accomplish that than GW Bush?

But yes, there is a global struggle with Islam because they have been using the oil money to fund terrorism in order to expand their base. That shit's gotta end. Islam has always attacked what it saw as the weaker culture in order to install Islamic leadership. And right now, that's Darfur, the last really weak culture left on its periphery.

But hey look. the Islamic world, under different cosmologies, has nonetheless been run by the alpha male warrior class for 5000 years, and now that show is shutting down. Its messy. The only real question is whether the effort to do that, along with all the other stresses on the global economy- like how to secure the oil while doing it- will lead to global economic panic. In which case billions will die, mostly of starvation, but as food supplies get short, increasing violence.

But no matter; at the end of the day, be is soon, or after rebuilding a new world order, women will be in charge. And they are not going to put up with misogynistic bullshit like Islam.

We dont need to nuke or bomb Iran now, be we do need to *LOOK LIKE WE WILL*. And who better right now to accomplish that than GW Bush?

I'm not in that much disagreement with what you've said, it is true that troup resources for warmongering are fully utilised.

On the quoted point however, Iran knows the yanks are just making a show at present, and it is not preventing them from progressing their plans (even if their plans are mostly just about making the Iranian leadership look in control). I am not talking about nuking either. Wouldn't want that (except in relation to proven underground near fully developed nuke sites, which they don't have yet).

The real reason I would do it now is because the Democrats when they get in are unlikely to take the necessary action.

Ah, Leyla pipes in again, as dumb as ever.

Bloody good show, dear girl.

Nice misogynistic remark. Making yourself at home, eh?

Go ahead, deny it. I'm sure you can fool most of these people. But I know the tone is there.

Unidian wrote:Nice misogynistic remark. Making yourself at home, eh?

Go ahead, deny it. I'm sure you can fool most of these people. But I know the tone is there.

I am sure you do. You have been trying to pin such shit on me -- hypocrisy, sexism, classism, whatever -- for a very long time. A rather poor substitute for actually beating me in an argument, no?.. :)

Kush mir in tokhes.

Leyla: Quote:It’s not at all like tall poppy syndrome. I don’t have an issue at all with any advances any individual makes for society, however he chooses to define himself. I don’t, however, consider the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands as an advancement and I don’t see the whole Israel/Palestine situation as being born from anything even remotely intelligent, frankly.

James: How would you or anyone really know?

Well, I think it’s taken for granted on this forum that there are certain things of which one can never be 100 percent sure. However, by definition, violence is the same as the absence of intelligence. The question is, whose? And, to discern that, and what one might deem "reasonable force," one requires---intelligence. Reasonable force (which does not necessarily come in the form of bombs) is swift, James, because its reasonable. It does not go on and on an on...

When the Ottoman Empire fell, the Allied Forces, as a strategic measure, secured the military support of the Arabs in exchange for the independence of Arab nations from Europe. Palestine is one such nation and provisionally so under British Mandate until such time as they prospered enough to become self-sufficient.

That the Jews were being targeted in other parts of Europe and then, in direct violation of these preceding peaceful agreements between the Arab nations, Britain and Europe regarding Palestine, were then installed in Palestine without regard for the indigenous peoples does not qualify Arabs as anti-Semites by the very virtue of those agreements and the law they intended to uphold. Yes, the same law which Israel then--and Israel and Victor now--keep trying to usurp for Jews and Israel.

So, evidentially, these Muslim Arabs were completely engaged peacefully toward democracy and prosperity at the time. By what then, if not an assumed "God-given" right, does a Jew call Arabs anti-Semitic?

Personally I reckon this whole conflict is great for global society. I rather like it seeing as I am not really involved in it – other people can pay the price and that’s completely fine by me.

Well, I can appreciate that sentiment, in one sense. But we’re all involved, James, whether one understands that or not. It’s called international relations. Admittedly, Australia is the new kid on the block, though.

I don’t see it as illegal occupation at all –

It doesn’t matter whether you personally see it that way or not. It is illegal, by definition, and agreement. And that is entirely the nature of such laws. Do men make laws and agreements solely for the purpose of breaking them?

1939 Committee Report in consideration of correspondence (1915 & 1916) between McMahon & The Sharif of Mecca

22. It is beyond the scope of the Committee to express an opinion upon the proper interpretation of the various statements mentioned in paragraph 19 and such an opinion could not in any case be properly expressed unless consideration had also been given to a number of other statements made during and after the war. In the opinion of the Committee it is, however, evident from these statements that His Majesty's Government were not free to dispose of Palestine without regard for the wishes and interests of the inhabitants of Palestine, and that these statements must all be taken into account in any attempt to estimate the responsibilities which—upon any interpretation of the Correspondence—His Majesty's Government have incurred towards those inhabitants as a result of the Correspondence.

30 April 1947
QUESTION OF PALESTINE
ARTICLE 22 OF THE COVENANT OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS

4. Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized. subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.

One has to make up one's mind who, or what, the real enemy is, eventually...

Leyla Shen wrote:That the Jews were being targeted in other parts of Europe and then, in direct violation of these preceding peaceful agreements between the Arab nations, Britain and Europe regarding Palestine, were then installed in Palestine

Were installed?.. England opposed jewish immigration into palestine, and at times even outright banned it. it certainly never encouraged it, much less 'installed' jews there.

And if you give such high weight to english promises, then surely you heard of Balfour Declaration, which formally and officially promised to establish a jewish national home in palestine (even though the brits actually didn't do anything to enact it)?

Where do you get your history from -- 'Itbach al-Yehud Quarterly?

Yes, the same law which Israel then--and Israel and Victor now--keep trying to usurp for Jews and Israel.

Care to be more specific about which law that would be?

So, evidentially, these Muslim Arabs were completely engaged peacefully toward democracy and prosperity at the time. By what then, if not an assumed "God-given" right, does a Jew call Arabs anti-Semitic?

Are you fucking insane? how could you not call them that? let's start in the modern timeframe:

• The Damascus blood libel of 1840
• Incessant pogroms in the Arab world throughout the 2nd half of the 19th century
• 1920 Jerusalem etc. pogroms, which directly lead to the creation of Haganah, and which were aimed primarily at the old jewish community which predated Zionism
• 1921 Jaffa pogroms
• 1929 Hebron massacre, which led to creation of Irgun
• 1938 Tiberias massacre
• The attempted poisoning of the whole Tel Aviv using german chemical weapons in 1943, under the direction of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem

And these are just overt, indubitable acts. Shall I list some of the islamic pronouncements against the jews?

Note BTW that the increasing militancy of the zionists, even the very founding of the zionist armed forces, was in direct response to arab attacks on jews. Zionists weren't the ones who unleashed pogroms against arabs.

One has to make up one's mind who, or what, the real enemy is, eventually...

Oh aye, indeed...

This is fucking surreal. Arabs were peacefully moving along, trying to establish democracy, not bothering any jews, and evil zionists came and stole everything! Reminds me of an old Soviet anecdote.

1968. Prague.

A czech comes up to a soviet officer and says: 'Comrade, a swiss soldier just knocked me down and took my soviet watch!'

The officer, looking slightly bewildered, replies: 'Surely you mean a soviet soldier knocked you down and took your swiss watch?'

The czech replies: 'Possibly; but you said it, not I!'

Jamesh wrote:

We dont need to nuke or bomb Iran now, be we do need to *LOOK LIKE WE WILL*. And who better right now to accomplish that than GW Bush?

I'm not in that much disagreement with what you've said, it is true that troup resources for warmongering are fully utilised.

On the quoted point however, Iran knows the yanks are just making a show at present, and it is not preventing them from progressing their plans (even if their plans are mostly just about making the Iranian leadership look in control). I am not talking about nuking either. Wouldn't want that (except in relation to proven underground near fully developed nuke sites, which they don't have yet).

The real reason I would do it now is because the Democrats when they get in are unlikely to take the necessary action.

It dont look like Bush actually has the troops for a ground war, All he can do is like you say, strike from the air. The more important question is whether Iran even has an effective nuclear program any more than Saddam had an effective WMD program. Intelligence has not been reliable, and too often sucked up to Bush rather than speaking truth to power.

If there were underground nuke factories in the desert, it'd be simple to drop an acoustic dart that would penetrate into the ground, and then some more in the area, each of which with a small charge that went off in sequence. Then record, and analyze the radio signals of when the sounds get to the buried microphone. Sound travels thru rock faster than air, even the air of a large subteranean chamber. They have the software, which they already use to identify pools of oil in the ground.

*THEN*, all that is required is a small missile to hit the spot. Completely harmlessly. But the Iranians will know, that whoever fired the missile, knows where their bunker is.

Is the CIA smart enuf to figure this out? If not, and it certainly is possible that they are so stupid, why then, I'm living on some kind of Holodeck or Virtual Reality game set where the monsters are programmed to do really dumb shit so I can look smart to myself.

There is another scenario unfolding that will make all this unnecessary. Fund the Kurds, who are using their oil money, not for international Jihad terrorism, but to establish their own homeland. A right I see the Jews support. Course, unlike the Palestinians, if the Kurds have a homeland, they wont be using it to attack the Jews. And in fact, we all expect they'll use it to first attack the Turks, who everyone in the region hates anyway. then, after they carve off the Kurdish part of Turkey, they'll go after the Kurdish part of... Iran. which is another house of ethnic cards like Afghanistan and Pakistan, and will come apart with the same kind of tribal leaders they have had since ancient times back in business. The Tocharians called them the "Arrogant Sakyas".

Then the Big oil companies can make deals with each, as they are now doing with the Kurds, at much more favorable rates than they could with nation states. And the warlords wont be funding the Jihadim to go after monumental architecture in the west, but arming for the struggles they have always had with the neighbors. Like sets of hillbilly clans having blood feuds.

Nobody will be organized enuf to make nukes.

Anna,

Well, this is the problem, as I see it. It is something different from pure mythology. The Gospel narratives were produced at a time when actual histories, bona fide histories, were being written, for example the histories of Plutarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch). The Gospels situate themselves, supposedly, in real time, naming real figures, real kings, real Roman personages, making reference to 'reality', and locating the Divine actor Jesus within this theatre, with a starring role. (According to the Jesus Seminar, this person Yeshua was something completely different from all that he was made out to be, and the phrases that are atributed to him are mostly pithy and ironical parables, with no mention of mission, a sacrifice of himself, consciousness of being some sort of divine being, etc. What we gather from this is that the Jesus myth was an invented story, and the Gospel documents are extremely potent within this invented history, and that this way of viewing reality, through a magical, demonological lens, is a style of perception that was taught, and it is passed from generation to generation, but is always there, in seed form, in the Gospel documents themselves).

Compared to histories, these Gospels are a horse of another color, and what would we call them? They are documents of magic, or perhaps tales of 'magical reality' with specific didactic messages, they are preaching tools to bring a certain message to people, but they offer an interpretation of reality which is indisputable. They are inspirational documents which yet mimic true histories, and in fact they seem to inculcate or to stimulate a very strange perspective about reality. When this imaginal, mythological world of foggy, romantic paranoia takes over a person, through the interiorization of the core message of the text, you just never know what they are going to *see* when they look at the world; at events, at history, and the contemporary world. I submit to you that Christians generally (especially perhaps) are caught, mired, wrapped up in, this almost unexplainable 'activity', but this activity stems from the documents themselves, to this weird, scary, magical world where Satan lurks behind certain people, where he machinates all sorts terrible events and outcomes, and where Jesus and the Angelic Host hold themselves back, waiting for some kind of signal.

And you say 'I am not completely denying that the power of myths to persist'?

I am not sure what is required to come down off this sort of induced vision of 'reality', though I read that large doses of vitamin B would help someone coming down off of a bad LSD trip. But how can you cure people who are all wrapped up in this really peculiar view of reality? You got the Jews, you got the aliens, tou got the fucking reptilians, you got secret societies that meet and make strange pacts, you got assassinations, and black helocopters circling in sky (have I left anything important out?) And you have the average person, with a rather negligible reasoning base, who from the time he is born till that of his death, swims in this sort of post-modernistic sewer-soup, where the imaginal world is superimposed on the 'real' world, where binary mythologic narratives play out all around him.
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http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... /home.html

Pretty cute Alex. With regard to history, Thucydides makes clear at the outset that he as contradictory reports, and that memory, of the various battles and political factors may be somewhat flawed. Xonophon, at the outset, seems to understand this, and therefore arranged to go with the Ten Thousand to actually record events as they happened. The world's first journalist.

It strikes me that these Greeks were aware of the narratives you refer to, but also picked up on how so often they were designed to suck up to power. And of course, with that model, who better to suck up to than God?

Now, when I tell a Christian how different events in Buddha's life were reported by different cultures, and spun to accommodate their sensibilities. or when I tell them that earlier parables and sayings were later put in the mouth of Buddha, no problem, they get it. But if I point out that the very same thing was going on with Jesus, they dont.

Thus, the Essene Righteous one, walks on water, changes water in wine, and raises people from the dead... a couple hundred years before Jesus. Yet somehow, in all the years since the Dead Sea scrolls were found, this information does not sink into the minds of the public... part of that soupy fog you refer to that people move around in. is there some hidden force that prevents us from clearing the air?

Alex:

We (the human race) are being/and have been divided and conquered by elite, who are using religion and fear mongering (politics, economy, wars) etc. to sow confusion in the masses, as a means to control. They have been engineering and falsifying our history, not just participating in it. Religion="false history" and middle east seem to be where it is historically all coming from. Israel is just a example of this religious intolerance and falsity. Read the Henry Makof, he is a Jew with a high reasoning powers (imo)... I have not found any falsity in his logic as yet.

ps.

Elite = It does not matter what label we have for them: zionists, illuminati, jews, aliens, satanists, bankers, etc. what matters is that we know they exist and that they work in secret with subterfuge, and are mathematically ruthless in perusing their agendas.

a)Zionists do want to enslave the world.
b) Illuminati do want to enslave the world.
Religion, education, war, censorship, marketing, economy, science = all tools of that class, for manipulating the masses.
The intelligencia (mostly jewish, I don't put christians in the intelligencia group. Christians are mostly just delusional.) are the sheepdogs that direct the clueless masses for the elite. The Israel and Middle East is the start and the end of this massive quagmire with the rest of the world now dragged in it too.

Daybrown is right.

"Yet somehow, in all the years since the Dead Sea scrolls were found, this information does not sink into the minds of the public... part of that soupy fog you refer to that people move around in. is there some hidden force that prevents us from clearing the air?"

Ignorance and confusion is what it's all about. Delusional -->Sheepdogs.

Connect the dots and welcome to City 17. =)

Do you spoze that the power elite has realized that automated control equipment and robots are easier to train and more reliable than hominid slaves?

And as for these slaves, in the Bagavad Gita, Arjuna is told that some of what he sees are forms that are created and animated by the divine, that exist only as a challenge to the fulfillment of his Kharma. Like the monsters in a video game. The Gita calls them "avatars".

They dont really need to have a soul. Altho they can be easily programmed to think they do and to say so to you, adding that to save yours, you need Jesus, Mohammet, or whoever.

i dont see that warning the mass of mindless avatars is getting anywhere. Nor do I see that the power elite is getting anywhere either, and moreover, I see some risk that whatever control they have, is in danger of disintegrating. Mass media manipulation, like anything else, can reach a point of diminishing returns. The rate of diminishment steepens as the number of avatars in the game increases- because the computer generating the virtual reality maxes out the servers with real time hits as each avatar needs to be told what to do.

One way to cope with this is to put more avatars on autopilot; but now, the variation in their responses is much more limited. Well, one way to deal with that, is make them all Christian Fundies, Jihadim, or other zealots who dont really have to think, just pull up random snippets of scripture.

That's why, when you try to talk with an avatar, their responses are not really germane to the context of your communication. They can understand a sentance, and will latch on to that, but the thread of a whole paragraph is beyond their attention spans. I dont really know anyone in the power elite, but I dare say, we would find the same thing. The journalists who pose questions only select from those which fit within the mindframe of the software.

Torture is obsolete; there are new lie detection technologies. So, why else are they still debating the use of torture? Hollow? Anyone there?

daybrown wrote:Torture is obsolete; there are new lie detection technologies. So, why else are they still debating the use of torture? Hollow? Anyone there?

Because fear of violence is a powerful tool to be used openly? For some it is just more fun that way.

Do you spoze that the power elite has realized that automated control equipment and robots are easier to train and more reliable than hominid slaves?

Do you doubt that they are the illuminated ones?
When creation of such robots becomes cheaper than birth of a child in a ghetto + education =..mathematical ruthlessness... hail the AGI! Hail the cloning! Bottom line and all that. Immortality + AGI = radical population birth control. Does'nt take genius to figure that out. Cunning and ruthless = Machivellian elite.

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daybrown (kinda) writes:
Snip a little Turkish Kurd, snip a little Iranian Kurd, (Syrian Kurd) etc.



So... Iran loses a little, Saud loses a lot, Pak loses a lot. Yemen gains, Jordan gains

Kurdistan gains a Black Sea sea route!


Check this map out...

Map of the New Middle East
http://www.globalresearch.ca/images/harita_b.jpeg



Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason


.

Alex,

We (the human race) are being/and have been divided and conquered by elite, who are using religion and fear mongering (politics, economy, wars) etc. to sow confusion in the masses, as a means to control. They have been engineering and falsifying our history, not just participating in it. Religion="false history" and middle east seem to be where it is historically all coming from. Israel is just a example of this religious intolerance and falsity. Read the Henry Makof, he is a Jew with a high reasoning powers (imo)... I have not found any falsity in his logic as yet.
ps.
Elite = It does not matter what label we have for them: zionists, illuminati, jews, aliens, satanists, bankers, etc. what matters is that we know they exist and that they work in secret with subterfuge, and are mathematically ruthless in perusing their agendas.

What he said.

Tomas wrote:.
Kurdistan gains a Black Sea sea route!
Check this map out...
Map of the New Middle East
http://www.globalresearch.ca/images/harita_b.jpeg

I had not thot of that, but suggested the re-establishment of Byzantium as part of the EU for all those who want to be secular and just make a living. Which would divide the Bosporus between two nations, which the other Black Nations would think was a really fine idea.

We'll see. the Turks have not really been tested militarily since Galipoli, and now that the Kurds have oil money to fund their partisans, like with ground to air missiles and tank killers... all that is needed is for Ankara's Islamic jackasses to get their asses kicked for the Armenians- shown on the map, and for the Byzantines to get support from the Serbs- who- with the Russians would just love to see St. Sophia fall back into Eastern Orthodox hands...

And behind the scenes also would be the Jews, hoping to build a new alliance with the Christian Byzantines and Armenians.. and the Kurds... who mite also seize the pipelines to the Mediterranean coast. The EU would be fine with that. I've also read of a new pipeline, connecting at the Mediterranean coast with what will be the Kurdish Mediterranean port, that lays on the sea bottom going south, and coming ashore in Israel.

All of which is driven by the PR of "self determination" for everyone. Well, except for the Palestinians of course. But no matter how it shakes out, there seems to be a global trend, supported by the transnationals, to break up the nation states (divide & conquer), with more 'free trade zones', 'autonomous regions', and city states like Singapore & Hong Kong.

Several Arab states now have many more foreign workers than Arabs, which Big Oil could use to cause 'regime change', that would also redirect oil money away from Islamic zealots. At the end of the day, Almighty Oil could foment even religious revolutions.