GENIUS FORUMS

In the ultimate sense what does liberation mean?
Freedom from the illusion of self!
We spend our lives creating our personal identity from the fabric of all our experiences, And we call this identity "I, myself."

Liberation is the ultimate breakthrough from this container of "myself" Into true selflessness.
Consciousness is omnipresent! When we finally, or even temporarily break through the illusory boundary of the "separate I",
We emerge into that Consciousness which is infinite.We are no longer identified with the former finite "self".This is true liberation.The irony is that there is truly no "I" to be liberated from.
It was an illusory, fabricated identity all along.
There is no "I" to be enlightened.
There is only the Light (consciousness) and what It creates!
This doesn't mean that we no longer have a sense of individuality.
We are each unique expressions of the One omnipresent "I AM".
But these forms manifest in space and time are not who we are.

These are only words until each little separate "self" awakens
and emerges from the cocoon of egocentric false identity
Into the ONE.
Each "caterpillar " must eat and grow a well nourished "self".
Then through a miraculous transformation, the butterfly emerges
As an expression of divine beauty With freedom to fly! (A favorite, if well worn metaphor.)

To go beyond just words requires active participation .
One such discipline which will accelerate this transformational awakening Is the contemplative self inquiry, "I WHO?"
At the deepest level this inquiry is transformed
From the usual continuing effort to define oneself into quite the opposite. It becomes an inquiry into the reality of the Infinite Consciousness That I Am, The ONE in each and all.

At the level of everyday thinking, this discipline takes the form of a mantra, "I WHO?" echoed whenever one says or even thinks "I".

If one takes this discipline very seriously As if nothing else were as important as realizing one's true identity, Then it will tend to drive the egocentric "identity" crazy Until the breakthrough into liberation happens. This is the intent of all ego-challenging disciplines.

Of course it is good (tho not necessary) to be in a supportive environment And have a teacher who knows the Way When you embark on the path of driving the ego crazy...A teacher who has found the ultimate "sanity" of Unity Consciousness. (Again helpful but no necessary.)

When ego does disintegrate there is a period of "free fall"
When one realizes s/he is really "nobody", And "the one I thought I was" seems to die... To actually cease its existence.
Truth is it never did exist outside of personal fantasy/ fabrication .

As one who has gone through this transition
It is my high calling to help others through it.
This is the universal calling of liberation...
To show the way until we all are free of the illusion
Of separation from the Omnipresent ONE.
Understand...we all still use the first person singular "I"
As a convention of language and designator of this individual person. But since there is ultimately no personal identity,
Consciousness is now expressed through this person without being filtered Through an illusory "me."

When the Light (consciousness) passes through ego
It is as though filtered through a dusty or murky lens..."Through a glass darkly." Life is distorted through the "cataracts" of ego.
But when ego finally disintegrates or becomes transparent,
In the healthy way of spiritual awakening,
The Light shines through clearly as the divine Presence here now
As and through this individual.

There is no personal "I" left to "claim" this Light as "my own."
It is the ONE Light, Consciousness ItSelf... Creator of the whole cosmos, including "you" and "me."

This is the meaning of being "called" to teach.
There is but ONE absolutely clear Consciousness
Expressing the Universal Love, Light, and Life Force Throughout the cosmos.
I am your brother in the ONE, mikiel.

mikiel wrote:Freedom from the illusion of self!

Freedom from life. Weary of life. Weary of the self, looking to deny the self and to deny life.

mikiel wrote:Liberation is the ultimate breakthrough from this container of "myself" Into true selflessness.

Pining for the "absolute". Pining to escape reality. Pining to be nothing.

It's starting to sound like a religious mantra, Neil.

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Neil,
No weariness. No pining. After sitting an hour a day for 25 years and 8-12 hours a day for the two month final approach (No affiliation) the breakthrough happened. The bubble broke. No more illusion of "me in here; not-me out there." No more baggage dragging, like:
"This is who I am. This is what I want. I'll be unhappy until I get it... and the next thing and the next... and spread the suffering all around.
Liberation from all that!
Like the mystics of all traditions and no tradition... freedom from the illusion of self... one with "Kosmos." Yes it is One Intelligent Being...
And we are each minutia in the cosmic hologram. One consciousness expressing through all beings.

No David, the spontaneous mantra was "I Who?"
So those who still think they are *somebody* are still stuck in the illusion. I wish them all "Godspeed" in getting over it!

mikiel

mikiel wrote:Neil,
No weariness. No pining. After sitting an hour a day for 25 years and 8-12 hours a day for the two month final approach (No affiliation) the breakthrough happened. The bubble broke. No more illusion of "me in here; not-me out there." No more baggage dragging, like:
"This is who I am. This is what I want. I'll be unhappy until I get it... and the next thing and the next... and spread the suffering all around.
Liberation from all that!
Like the mystics of all traditions and no tradition... freedom from the illusion of self... one with "Kosmos." Yes it is One Intelligent Being...
And we are each minutia in the cosmic hologram. One consciousness expressing through all beings.

Just because something gives you a spiritual high doesn't make it true. I would love, for example, for there to be a gracious God up there who gives us eternal pleasures. The reality is that is unlikely and that I am myself. Whether in some higher sense I am an illusion or not is not something I can even begin to know, since I would need an objective viewpoint to make that claim and I have no access to such viewpoint.

It's pretty easy to establish that the self is an illusion. It doesn't require any special viewpoint... just an elementary understanding of illusions.

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:It's pretty easy to establish that the self is an illusion. It doesn't require any special viewpoint... just an elementary understanding of illusions.

It requires metaphysics, and hence the objective viewpoint.

Way to go with the nihilism Neil. The assertions you make are absolutely incredible. It would be funny if it wasn't also too unfortunate.

Not nilist, just acceptance. Tocharian had words for "men" and "women" like everyone else, but they also had a special suffix, "-os", which meant a sentient being. In their cosmology, a sentient being could aspire to the state of 'amagame', which meant some one who was not destined to be born again.

If the world you live on gives you the idea that there's some purpose in it, I dont have a problem with that. Nor do I mind that mine is just a fucking accident that waited to happen.

Neil,

It requires metaphysics, and hence the objective viewpoint.

In the sense that everything requires metaphysics, sure. But realizing that any perception you have of your self is an illusion -- just like an optical illusion is an illusion -- is not a difficult deduction.

daybrown wrote:Not nilist, just acceptance.

By the way Neil writes, it is obvious that while he is talking his words always betray his true aspiration to something of more purposeful and more meaningful than he gives away. The moment he senses the apparent implications of his ambitions he must inevitably always pull back, because dealing with them would seem too horrible to deal with. The only way for him is to return back to nihilist approach of trying to stamp absolute meaninglessness to every single thing that comes his way. Wipe that mirror bright.

daybrown wrote:If the world you live on gives you the idea that there's some purpose in it, I dont have a problem with that.

Purpose? I don't see how you pulled that here?

daybrown wrote:Nor do I mind that mine is just a fucking accident that waited to happen.

Considering how and what you write I have no problem with that.

Neil: "Just because something gives you a spiritual high doesn't make it true. I would love, for example, for there to be a gracious God up there who gives us eternal pleasures. The reality is that is unlikely and that I am myself. Whether in some higher sense I am an illusion or not is not something I can even begin to know, since I would need an objective viewpoint to make that claim and I have no access to such viewpoint."

When you awaken from a dream, you know it was a dream. You don't need some wiseguy to tell you how waking is real and "true" in a way that dreaming is not.
A spiritual high? Have you ever experienced stillness of mind in the waking state? ...Awareness, consciouisness itself, transcending content and identification with content? After nearly forty years of such transcendence, no one can "diss" it with phrazes like "... a spiritual high doesn't make it true..." or..."a gracious God up there who gives us eternal pleasures."
"Up there?" Sunday school shit this is. "Eternal pleasures?" Try equanimity in compassionate transcendence in the perpetual NOW.
Or is that too much to comprehend?
I am radically honest and speak bluntly in this state of equanimity. It does have an edge, often mistaken, in print, for anger, but it is not.
I tell the truth as I know it. If you get it, fine. If not... stil in equanimity.
Transcendence into consciousness (beyond *what one is conscious of*) is the "objective viewpoint" you mention. You have no access to it because you have no experience of transcendence.
37 years of meditation gives one absolute certainty of the truth of which I speak. And it is universal among all mystics, not just a personal point of view.

mikiel

tooyi wrote:

daybrown wrote:If the world you live on gives you the idea that there's some purpose in it, I dont have a problem with that.

Purpose? I don't see how you pulled that here?
By definition, if not nilist, then there is some purpose.

But whatever, cyberspace can penetrate into other dimensions and realities. For all I know, these messages are no more then Turing machine output. I could even be a Turing machine programmed to think I am real. But apparently, not programmed to get wound up about the point.

I spoze there are realities in which there are some who think they are enlightened; they may be right, I dunno. I dont see that their enlightenment has any effect on me, and dont see that it has had much effect on most.

Neil Melnyk wrote:

mikiel wrote:Liberation is the ultimate breakthrough from this container of "myself" Into true selflessness.

Pining for the "absolute". Pining to escape reality. Pining to be nothing.

Seemed to me like mikiel was more pining to be Everything.

daybrown wrote:By definition, if not nilist, then there is some purpose.

Purpose.

Whatever you define your purpose to be, it will still point to something.

Whatever you define your lack of purpose to be, it will still point to something.


Enlightened or not it really is worthless unless you do something with it regardless of whether you have it or not. Whether you care about it or not, define it the way you like, define the truth the way you like, it is what you do with it (or the lack of it) that matters.

acebackwords wrote:

Neil Melnyk wrote:

mikiel wrote:Liberation is the ultimate breakthrough from this container of "myself" Into true selflessness.

Pining for the "absolute". Pining to escape reality. Pining to be nothing.

Seemed to me like mikiel was more pining to be Everything.

What, you didn't believe my response to Neil above, "Not weary... not pining?"
And "to be Everything" misses the whole point of being consciousness transcending content, *what one is conscious of* including the illusion of personal identity "separate from" omnipresent Consciousness.
mikiel

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Neil,

It requires metaphysics, and hence the objective viewpoint.

In the sense that everything requires metaphysics, sure. But realizing that any perception you have of your self is an illusion -- just like an optical illusion is an illusion -- is not a difficult deduction.

Perhaps the way we have traditionally defined words makes the deduction possible, but beyond that it is still meaningless.

mikiel wrote:A spiritual high? Have you ever experienced stillness of mind in the waking state? ...Awareness, consciouisness itself, transcending content and identification with content? After nearly forty years of such transcendence, no one can "diss" it with phrazes like "... a spiritual high doesn't make it true..." or..."a gracious God up there who gives us eternal pleasures."
"Up there?" Sunday school shit this is. "Eternal pleasures?" Try equanimity in compassionate transcendence in the perpetual NOW.
Or is that too much to comprehend?

Nope. You wish there was some meaning to life that you could grasp. You wish there was a compassionate, loving God up there, or maybe just nothingness. But you want something, anything concrete. You want some level of completeness. Yes I have experienced stillness of mind -- all of us these days have too much free time.

Neil Melnyk wrote:

mikiel wrote:A spiritual high? Have you ever experienced stillness of mind in the waking state? ...Awareness, consciouisness itself, transcending content and identification with content? After nearly forty years of such transcendence, no one can "diss" it with phrazes like "... a spiritual high doesn't make it true..." or..."a gracious God up there who gives us eternal pleasures."
"Up there?" Sunday school shit this is. "Eternal pleasures?" Try equanimity in compassionate transcendence in the perpetual NOW.
Or is that too much to comprehend?

Nope. You wish there was some meaning to life that you could grasp. You wish there was a compassionate, loving God up there, or maybe just nothingness. But you want something, anything concrete. You want some level of completeness. Yes I have experienced stillness of mind -- all of us these days have too much free time.

Are you presuming to tell me what I wish/want, or is this the generic you/we/all use of "you?" If the former you are way off the deep end, and I say this as a psychotherapist of 21 years practice... coaching folks to use "I" statements rather than projecting their stuff onto others.
If the latter, still better to speak for yoourself.
What do you think has motivated me to sit still for over 13,000 hours? Looking for somthing forever out of reach? You guessed wrong in my case.
There was peaceful bliss in that transcendence for the 25 years before awakening. Afterwards still peaceful bliss but also integration of the transcendental and the manifest in conscious unity, beyond the former illusory duality.
As to: "all of us these days have too much free time..." I see you *do* presume too much... speaking for "all of us." All my time is "free." I do what what I want all the time. And it's very productive in terms of the values which are meaningful to me. No resume here. I feel no compulsion to prove anything to you. Just speak for yourself in reply. Don't put words in my mouth. They taste like shit!
mikiel

"Afterwards still peaceful bliss but also integration of the transcendental and the manifest in conscious unity, beyond the former illusory duality."

What suffering life on earth are you trying to run away from that you need this? Unfortunately it doesn't exist, but if it comforts you to think it does and to experience the tranquility after 25 years of harsh life then so be it.

Neil,

Unfortunately it doesn't exist,

And you know this because ...... you have access to the objective viewpoint?

Still the hypocrite, I see.

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Neil Melnyk wrote:"What suffering life on earth are you trying to run away from that you need this? Unfortunately it doesn't exist . . .

Are you kidding? Am I misunderstanding you? Last year, I had a friend of mine, this 50-year-old, 110-pound homeless woman, stomped to death in her sleepingbag by four thugs. According to eye witness testimony: "They were kicking her head like it was a soccer ball."

I'm just giving you one random example off the top of my head, of "suffering on earth" from my daily soap opera. Suffering is what drives man to his knees in search of liberation, in search of a higher reality beyond this shit-stained world of humans. Suffering is what demands us to go beyond dry intellectual knowledge, and arm-chair philosophical musings.

acebackwords wrote:I'm just giving you one random example off the top of my head, of "suffering on earth" from my daily soap opera. Suffering is what drives man to his knees in search of liberation, in search of a higher reality beyond this shit-stained world of humans. Suffering is what demands us to go beyond dry intellectual knowledge, and arm-chair philosophical musings.

I'm sorry you suffer like that. When you abandon all worldly desires and believe that everything is an illusion, including your own existence, you will be free of this!

David Quinn wrote:And you know this because ...... you have access to the objective viewpoint?

Still the hypocrite, I see.

Just another variation of "there is no absolute truth", David, don't get too excited. :)

Neil Melnyk wrote:

acebackwords wrote:I'm just giving you one random example off the top of my head, of "suffering on earth" from my daily soap opera. Suffering is what drives man to his knees in search of liberation, in search of a higher reality beyond this shit-stained world of humans. Suffering is what demands us to go beyond dry intellectual knowledge, and arm-chair philosophical musings.

I'm sorry you suffer like that. When you abandon all worldly desires and believe that everything is an illusion, including your own existence, you will be free of this!

Neil: I now realize, your post, your thinking, and your existence is an illusion. I feel better already. Thanks.

Neil,

Just another variation of "there is no absolute truth", David, don't get too excited. :)

"There is no absolute truth, except my own." - is what you mean.

You can't deny the right of others to reach absolute conclusions, while permitting yourself to reach them. That is hypocrisy.

That you stick your head in the sand and deny your own absolutist thinking doesn't change the fact that you are constantly engaging in absolutist thinking.

No matter how hard you try to block it out, I can still see it.

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