Enlightenment Finally

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by maestro »

Jason wrote:but what about truth? I know some people will argue that truth is the necessary antidote to suffering blah dee blah blah,
Actually these problems are tightly coupled

According to me "the truth" is not an abstract logical truth but an alive observational faculty.

The end of suffering cannot be achieved without seeing it in action and then taking necessary steps to eliminate it. I think Carl put it well with this comment

To work on oneself one must know every screw, every nail of one’s machine—then you will know what to do.

Jason wrote:but elevating the elimination of suffering above truth seems like it would make people vulnerable to being satisfied with comforting delusions.
Don't worry comforting delusions turn to suffering soon enough.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

samadhi wrote:All I see you doing is equating love with attachment. Loving without attachment is not that rare. I'm sure you can look within your own experience and see that not everything you love has to do with attachment.
Are you referring to self-sacrificial acts of love, for example giving up ones life for the well being of a friend, family or a country? Surely you'd agree that this also works through identifying ourselves with this 'other' and then act out of belief or instinct that this one part of us with which we identify on some level can prosper by sacrificing another ('lesser') part of ourselves.

It's still selfish, only the self has expanded to include more than the usual body periphery. Remember, one doesn't include an objective other but the image one has of the other, like dying for a country or friend is dying for the ideal they represent, someones most loved part that needs to live on or prosper (or most hated part that must die, as the flip side).
Whether anyone is "really" in control isn't the point. There is an illusion of control that the ego functions within and is quite comfortable with. If you think this isn't so, why not post your name, ssn and bank account number on a web site for identity thieves since you are not in control anyway.
It's interesting to investigate further the workings of power and sacrifice in this context. If there's a gain to be made, something else has to give. These are the tides of control & surrender. In your example one gains wealth and the means of controlling it by administrative means. The surrender is to pay the price: one is forced to protect the wealth as others will be caused to increase power too by surrendering to criminal activities (for example because they have less moral restraint). The illusion of control appears to be nothing else here but surrendering to reason, even the power of prediction that informs our actions, needed after the initial rise in power (obtaining ownership).

There's nothing to gain without surrendering or overcoming. If gaining wisdom is the goal, surrendering will be part of that process; giving up the right things at the right time. It's like building a sand structure on the beach and then wait for the tide to fill the channels and slowly undo it until it's swallowed wholesale. The structure was build with its destiny in mind, of course, its function fulfilled in its ending.

One cannot control the tides. But all power and as such your "illusion of control" which Nietzsche called: will to power, resides locked within this flow.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by Dan Rowden »

Enlightenment is only about the end of suffering in the sense that it is about the end of ignorance, which is the source of all suffering. If one does not specifically suffer for one's ignorance and possess Bodhicitta, enlightenment will remain a fuzzy notion about religious bliss and happiness and such blather. One's ignorance really should be the focus. That's pivotal to ensuring that one's logic is sharp and unfettered. Part of the reason I say that is that on the spiritual path, suffering is produced by said sharp logic (at various developmental stages). If the focus is on ending suffering, such products of reason will likely be shunned.
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by maestro »

Dan Rowden wrote:Enlightenment is only about the end of suffering in the sense that it is about the end of ignorance, which is the source of all suffering.
Yes but ignorance of what, do you need to know for example that clocks slow down at higher velocities (relativity).

On the other hand if you define the truth as I did in my reply to Jason, you will see why enlightenment is the end of ignorance.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by Dan Rowden »

Ignorance about the nature of self, existence, ultimate reality. i.e. the stuff of philosophy rather than science. I can barely believe you needed an answer to that question.
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by maestro »

Is the slowing of clocks not a part of ultimate reality.

Again your quote about ending of ignorance only makes sense with my definiton of truth in the top post
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by Dan Rowden »

Yes, an irrelevant part. It's a mistake to think that we are actually in a state of ignorance with regard to particular empirical matters. This is because there's no "truth" therein, only contingency and utility.

If such ideas as flying clocks mattered, no-one in the history of history could ever attain enlightenment.
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by maestro »

Ignorance is ignorance nevertheless, I bet you would not have all the information even about your body/brain, now do you?

For me enlightenment is having clear vision (as in seeing inside and outside)+ logic and coherence and not knowledge about "everything" as you guys seem to believe. Not that the process you guys use of acquiring this knowledge (definitions and A=A, in the absence of observation) makes any sense to me either.

And not to forget that the theory that there cannot be a universal clock is not just a trivial fact, which you just deprecated with you quip about flying clocks.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by Dan Rowden »

Time is a measurement of rate of change, and since change is relative to the observer, there cannot be a universal clock. You don't need Relativity to know this.
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

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Dan Rowden wrote:Time is a measurement of rate of change, and since change is relative to the observer, there cannot be a universal clock. You don't need Relativity to know this.
Alright since you claim that your truths are stronger than those of physics. The above is a truth of your philosophy corresponding to relativity in physics.

From your statement does it follow that it is impossible to make two instruments which output the numbers 1,2,3..... simultaneously such that this property is retained when are transported to a different destination with different velocities? Assuming the observer is the same at both destinations and at at same spacing to both instruments.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by Dan Rowden »

I don't say my truth is "stronger" than physics. They deal in different matters, and there is no truth in physics or any branch of science, their outcomes necessarily being contingent and relative.
From your statement does it follow that it is impossible to make two instruments which output the numbers 1,2,3..... simultaneously such that this property is retained when are transported to a different destination with different velocities?
I don't understand what is being retained in your scenario. The sequence or the rate at which the sequence is generated?
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by maestro »

Dan Rowden wrote:I don't say my truth is "stronger" than physics. They deal in different matters, and there is no truth in physics or any branch of science, their outcomes necessarily being contingent and relative.
Since your truths are true in all possible worlds, they must be true in this one, the one that physics humbly attempts to uncover using its "weak" empirical methods.
Dan Rowden wrote: I don't understand what is being retained in your scenario. The sequence or the rate at which the sequence is generated?
The property of being simultaneous.
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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

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maestro wrote: The end of suffering cannot be achieved without seeing it in action and then taking necessary steps to eliminate it. I think Carl put it well with this comment

To work on oneself one must know every screw, every nail of one’s machine—then you will know what to do.
One can't really know oneself until one realizes that there are really no screws and nails, and indeed no machine. This is a kind of omniscience which extends far beyond science and is understood by very few.

According to me "the truth" is not an abstract logical truth but an alive observational faculty.
It is what is experienced naturally - observationally and alive - when one's mind is no longer muddled with false thoughts. A person without false thoughts sees directly into the heart of truth no matter where he looks. He sees it in the cup before him, in the smells in the air, in the thoughts inside his mind, in the faces of those around him ....

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

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maestro wrote:
Dan Rowden wrote:I don't say my truth is "stronger" than physics. They deal in different matters, and there is no truth in physics or any branch of science, their outcomes necessarily being contingent and relative.
Since your truths are true in all possible worlds, they must be true in this one, the one that physics humbly attempts to uncover using its "weak" empirical methods.
Don't introduce emotionally loaded words into it. What I said of empirical models is technically correct. Live with it.
Dan Rowden wrote:
I don't understand what is being retained in your scenario. The sequence or the rate at which the sequence is generated?
The property of being simultaneous.
I would have thought it was true by definition that packages delivered at different velocities to spacial locations of the same distance cannot retain simultaneity. But that simultaneity would have to be measured by a third party anyway, wouldn't it?
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by maestro »

Dan Rowden wrote: I would have thought it was true by definition that packages delivered at different velocities to spacial locations of the same distance cannot retain simultaneity. But that simultaneity would have to be measured by a third party anyway, wouldn't it?
You mean it is true by definition that if I purchase two digital clocks, synchronize them then send one to you through Fedex and one through USPS, then they will show different times when they reach you.
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

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David Quinn wrote: One can't really know oneself until one realizes that there are really no screws and nails, and indeed no machine. This is a kind of omniscience which extends far beyond science and is understood by very few.
I think what you are saying is that there are no boundaries, and all is one.

However this knowledge does precious little to halt the phenomenon of suffering. For example if I get beaten up by goons everyday from home to work, it is better for me to see the goons as separate from me and not to keep repeating that goons beating me is a logical fallacy since all is one and neither me nor the goons really exist.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by Dan Rowden »

maestro wrote:You mean it is true by definition that if I purchase two digital clocks, synchronize them then send one to you through Fedex and one through USPS, then they will show different times when they reach you.
Oh, ok, you should have used clocks to make your point at the start. Now I get what you're on about. Apparently, if one of those clocks is sent at faster than even Fedex can go it may not show the same time as the one sent by the US postal service. I can neither confirm nor deny if this is true. I can confirm, however, that it is of little interest to me.

Of course, traveling by the USPS would make anyone or anything age faster.
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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

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maestro wrote:
David Quinn wrote: One can't really know oneself until one realizes that there are really no screws and nails, and indeed no machine. This is a kind of omniscience which extends far beyond science and is understood by very few.
I think what you are saying is that there are no boundaries, and all is one.
No, it's much more than that. That's just the tip of the ice-berg.

Unless you're fully immersed, in an existential sense, in the essential flow of Nature and perceiving directly the nature of self, and suffering, you won't really be able to reap the benefits of spiritual life.

This is a long, long way from simply being able to perceive logical fallacies. That's just prep work.

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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by maestro »

I think we are in agreement.
Unless you're fully immersed, in an existential sense, in the essential flow of Nature and perceiving directly the nature of self, and suffering, you won't really be able to reap the benefits of spiritual life.
For me this immersion/perceiving is the truth.
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Shahrazad
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by Shahrazad »

Dan,
Apparently, if one of those clocks is sent at faster than even Fedex can go it may not show the same time as the one sent by the US postal service.
Why not?
I can confirm, however, that it is of little interest to me.
This is even more amazing. What could possibly be more interesting?

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David Quinn
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

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maestro wrote:I think we are in agreement.
DQ: Unless you're fully immersed, in an existential sense, in the essential flow of Nature and perceiving directly the nature of self, and suffering, you won't really be able to reap the benefits of spiritual life.
For me this immersion/perceiving is the truth.
So where does your little loop thing come into it?

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by Dan Rowden »

Shahrazad wrote:Dan,
Apparently, if one of those clocks is sent at faster than even Fedex can go it may not show the same time as the one sent by the US postal service.
Why not?
In Special Theory time slows down for an object traveling near the speed of light in relation to a stationary observer. I think. Something along those lines.
I can confirm, however, that it is of little interest to me.
This is even more amazing. What could possibly be more interesting?
Lots of things.
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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

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David Quinn wrote:So where does your little loop thing come into it?
You mean the third eye, that is the one which allows clear perception in the first place. By dissolving suffering it allows unhindered flow of energy which is immersion.
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

Post by David Quinn »

And this involves mentally reacting to the arisal of pain and instantly nullifying it?

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maestro
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Re: Enlightenment Finally

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David Quinn wrote:And this involves reacting to the arisal of pain and instantly nullifying it?
Not nullifying pain but doing what needs to be done which in this case is cleaning up the mind.
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