GENIUS FORUMS

East Hastings St, Vancouver. One of my more memorable experiences on my trip to the U.S and Canada last year.

It's an interesting contradiction how people can live in a pile of stinking rubbish at the same time as experiencing the heavens of drug highs.

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yeah, apparently Vancouver is getting worse. The rate of economic expansion is so extreme in many parts of western Canada that it creates a lot of victims. Many small town naive people from my province left to go out there with ambitious ideals, but they end up being sucked up into the hedonistic drug culture that pervades the night life.

They leave N.S (my small province) with a cynicism of the possibilities here, probably because of recent break ups with girlfriends and the discontent of working a mediocre jobs, and so they leave with great optimism based on naive perceptions. And eventually they return with hard drug addictions, debt, and a few prideful stories of how stupid they were.

it reminds me of the mentality of the amateur gold prospectors in the 1800s who travelled for weeks through the Canadian north to the Yukon Territories looking for riches and fortunes, but instead they unwittingly found starvation and bitterly cold climates that they were not properly adapted for...

Hang on, you mean tremendous economic expansion didn't create a utopia for all? Oh no! My beliefs have all gone up in smoke!

yeah, Dan, personally I don't think the population of any city should exceed 1 million, we have less than 500,000 in Halifax, and it is a good size. Cities such as Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver are too large. The demand for real estate is too high, and so it drives the prices up, and people have to work such dreadful hours to sustain life that they go through terrible lows, and so they resort to hard drug use.

I bet the rates of crime and suicide are much higher per person in larger cities compared to smaller ones.

I'd say that's a given, but I don't think it's a population issue, as such; well, it is, but it is in the sense that infrastructure (meaning everything that an economy needs to function - housing, roads, employment etc) doesn't keep up with population growth. Even in medium sized cities that can cause such hardship. Cities that are experiencing significant growth like that tend to chase their infrastructural tail. It's almost as if the only reason they get respite is because people start to see that it's not the desirable destination they thought it was and the growth slows. It's a but of a catch 22 for town planners as they can't really build infrastructure that they merely project will be required. Some of it can be done this way, but not all, otherwise you potentially end up with expensive white elephants littering your city - and I'm not talking about the people :)

If you get an urge to move to a city with a growth reputation, get in early or do your damn research. Either way it'll end up being less than you expected, as given the way modern economics and politics function the slide into some measure of social degradation is inevitable.

well, it is, but it is in the sense that infrastructure (meaning everything that an economy needs to function - housing, roads, employment etc) doesn't keep up with population growth.

Think of what those kinds of people (or personality types) would accomplish, if they became successful.

It's extremely sad. I feel much emotion when I watch something like that. Anger, too. A lot of them are just victims (I guess), while others are ... I'm left speechless. It's extremely hard not to judge, sometimes.

Plexus wrote:Think of what those kinds of people (or personality types) would accomplish, if they became successful.

What kinds of people/personality types do you mean by "those kinds" here?

I'm not sure. Have you seem the video? I like to think, that there are specific types of people which are more inclined to using drugs and not caring about much else. Now, what if those types became successful and then started using drugs? If you picture a poor drug addicts life as an explosion, then think of how much larger an explosion it would be, if they were on top of the food chain.

Well, there were 2 very different ways to take that.

It's a common misconception that successful people don't have drug or alcohol problems. Addiction strikes people anywhere on the social scale, and those who are perceived by society as doing well but have an addiction are even more prone to be in denial about it.

Some get into the addiction as a way that they think it will make it easier or just possible to do better - be more creative, stay up and study longer, relax enough to do the requisite schmoozing, whatever. They often then just go on about their business on automatic pilot, and do basically only care about drinking/drugging.

The other way to take that is to recognize that some people get into the addiction to escape the pain of a bad life. Of those people, if they suddenly became successful, they would no longer have any pain to escape from, except the pain intrinsic to the addiction itself. I wonder if that group would have a higher likelihood of getting off the stuff if they were shown immediately that their boost into success was a windfall, and if they were to stay successful, they would have to get off the substances.

Success is, itself, often an addiction that does considerable harm.

Addiction strikes people anywhere on the social scale

More so, on the lower part of the scale. I guess it's because they're more susceptible to pain and they have fewer options in dealing with it. The option they chose may or may not add more suffering. It becomes a battle between a "quick fix" and the more sensible long term solution. Life can really suck at times.

This is interesting -> being addicted to success vs drug addiction.

Psychological addictions can be as serious and debilitating as chemical ones (assuming you're happy to make that distinction at all). Ever seen what gambling addiction does to people and those around them? And I think we're all familiar with the familial dysfunction that can arise out situations with members having a success or work addiction. When I look at the rich and successful person with all the accouterments thereof and compare the seemingly pathetic junkie on the sidewalk, I don't necessarily see two different types of people, just somewhat different outcomes.

Indeed.

Oh great, you two agree - congrats.

When I look at the rich and successful person with all the accouterments thereof and compare the seemingly pathetic junkie on the sidewalk, I don't necessarily see two different types of people, just somewhat different outcomes.

Different people, different outcome. If I had a choice, I'd rather be addicted to success. Btw, the addictions are at opposite ends.

Usually...

Success --> life
Drugs--> death

Kevin Solway wrote:It's an interesting contradiction how people can live in a pile of stinking rubbish at the same time as experiencing the heavens of drug highs.

I didn't watch all those links, but what I did see, I didn't notice anyone experiencing any kind of heaven. Looked more like they were in hell. What's that, your sense of humor, Kevin? I don't get it.

Plexus wrote:Different people, different outcome. If I had a choice, I'd rather be addicted to success. Btw, the addictions are at opposite ends.

Both types are addicted to the same things. Don't you see that the junkie has the same values as the rich person and the only reason he has turned to drugs is because his outcome was different? Many, but by no means all, junkies are "failed" rich people.

Plexus wrote:Usually...

Success --> life
Drugs--> death

That's all very...er, logical, Plex, but I have seen lots of people addicted to work and material goods who weren't very happy or full of life. Kinda stressed and...dead, actually. It's creepy, or hadn't you noticed.

Drugs-->life
Success-->death

Is that better?

Drug High Heavens exist before addiction (and often only happen a couple of times); after that a person's best hope is something approaching normality.

Plexus wrote:Drugs-->life
Success-->death

Is that better?

Not really, no. I'd drop that whole formulation if I were you.

Plexus wrote:More so, on the lower part of the scale.

Here:

Although the rate of past month illicit drug use was higher among unemployed persons compared with those from other employment groups, most drug users were employed.

and under the section marked "Alcohol"

Most binge and heavy alcohol users were employed in 2006. Among 54.0 million adult binge drinkers, 42.9 million (79.4 percent) were employed either full or part time. Among 16.3 million heavy drinkers, 12.9 million (79.2 percent) were employed.

and here:

Currently, nearly 14 million Americans -- 1 in every 13 adults -- abuse alcohol or are alcoholic.

Oh, here's a list of famous people and the drugs they used.

Yeah, drugs can cause a person to lose their success, but it's not so unheard-of for a successful person to be on something that this is such a mystery:

Plexus wrote:Think of what those kinds of people (or personality types) would accomplish, if they became successful.

Success --> life

Depends how you define "life." For example, I'd consider 60 hour workweeks a very loose definition of "life."

But people of other temperaments may see it differently.

Carl G wrote:

Kevin Solway wrote:It's an interesting contradiction how people can live in a pile of stinking rubbish at the same time as experiencing the heavens of drug highs.

I didn't watch all those links, but what I did see, I didn't notice anyone experiencing any kind of heaven. Looked more like they were in hell. What's that, your sense of humor, Kevin? I don't get it.

The "heaven" is only in their minds. If you get to be as enlightened as Kevin, you would also begin to notice what is going on inside people's minds.

*ducks and runs for cover*

Sure, it can go both ways. However, it obviously depends how one defines "success". For instance, true success has nothing to do with addiction. Though, if I had to pick between an addiction (there are different forms), I'd chose happiness (a form of success) to be addicted to.

If a person harvests good hygiene habits, can they be seen as addicted? Or would it not be healthy to be addicted to organic vegetables and eat health portions on a regular basis?

To me, addiction doesn't necessarily mean something evil.