GENIUS FORUMS

Did God create us to be miserable ?

lol what are you on about

SeekerOfWisdom wrote: Again, are you going to assert that Confucius and whoever wrote Jesus were on bicycle training wheels too, not to mention Socrates and Lao Tzu, that's three of the original "not-knowers" talking directly about divine origin + Jesus, so maybe you have confused not-knowing, because it doesn't mean not-knowing God(three letter word, different meaning for every person in existence) and it never has, not even from Socrates "wisest man alive for I know one thing and that is that I know nothing".

Now you are really hiding behind the skirts of authority. I don't think Lao Tzu and Jesus wrote about "Essence" and "Mind" as fundamental cause. And if they did they were wrong.

lol at the Buddha story because I can only imagine what he was thinking. He knew there was no way he could ever properly explain what he knew. What he had already said must have been hard enough for people to grasp.

The point was that even when it would be possible to explain all the stuff going on, it won't help anyone much further. It would be like performing miracles: people will just react on those with emotion and become "followers" or "doubters". And so it goes with every stunning observation one might have about the world or inner experiences. It's all a "bundle of leaves".

all you have to do is... describing this very badly... feel detached. You have to not want to be here.

The Buddhist however calls this: vibhava-taṇhā, the "craving not to be". It can be a strong desire, it's looking for relief by desiring escape. And really, I know exactly what you're talking about but it's essentially the same illusion as craving to be. To be and not to be are both no existent options but two sides of the coin of desire.

my mind felt overly detached and I was able to achieve a deeper meditation than ever previously, obviously I won't try and describe particular meditative experiences as that never ever goes well, I have found that this can be replicated very easily, I've wanted to ask someone else to try it.

Some would call this "no-mind" because there's no mind to be detached. The mind itself rises with each and every sense attachment. Not something to shut down, as that would be the illusion of inversion. It's just something to be aware of.

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Your assertion is that our senses are being derived from the interaction of our bodies with the external world

That's not really what was said, just that if you want to research causes of something, you better submit to the fact of causality first. Meaning the senses derive from something else and that is then derived from other things you could subject to inquiries, philosophical or scientific. The first one arrives at certainty and emptiness, the second one arrives at predictability and relativity.

but when you realize you don't know anything, you stop trying to rationalize and except what is, mystical forms and mysterious sensual experiences, that's all that is...

That's just what you are doing because you crave the mystery and the mystical being there at the center, like some new age god. You're not so different after all from when I was 18!

I'm standing right here in the same realm as you man, I can see that it's of dream-like existence

No way of knowing that really. There's nothing dream-like about the realm "I am" in where nothing really exists so nothing can be dream-like either.

these illusions are affected by your thoughts, which are effected by the experiences, which then effect thoughts, in an endless circle where you have no control or free will, when you realize you have no control over your thoughts and no control over the experiences then you see that they are flowing just like a dream

And yet everything keeps happening, responding with responsibility. It almost looks like something or someone is pulling strings! What a miracle.

not realizing that your whole existence is made up of feelings and transient sensations.

I rather believe it's made up of star dust.

The universe stared with zero.

Jesus spoke of God, Lao tzu spoke of "great mother" and "master carpenter", Confucius spoke of God and Socrates spoke of our divinity. That's all three of the people who most notably declared "not-knowing is true knowledge" who had knowledge, just saying, you think not-knowing is related to this when it isn't, clearly.

Craving not to be is a desire, but that's different from disliking/ not craving being.

"where nothing really exists so nothing can be dream-like either"

That's just not true at all, how are dreams dream-like then if nothing exists? How do I even know what a dream is.


Lol, it is not made up of star dust, matter is an illusion of the senses, the wall your seeing is made up of the same stuff the walls in your imagination are made up of, did they come from star dust?

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Jesus spoke of God, Lao tzu spoke of "great mother" and "master carpenter", Confucius spoke of God and Socrates spoke of our divinity. That's all three of the people who most notably declared "not-knowing is true knowledge" who had knowledge, just saying, you think not-knowing is related to this when it isn't, clearly.

Lao described only Tao of course, a Chinese term which could be translated as way, nature, word or even "what it is". But it's not there in any sense because if the Tao would be it could not be the everlasting and real Tao. Yet at the same time there are never ending descriptions possible and words like "mother" or "carpenter" only point to creative aspects, that reality is being birthed or carved out in a way, a way called Tao, God, Way, Nature, Totality or SuperGlue. But you need to be flexible about it, the point being that it doesn't exist as a thing, essence, being or anything you can wrap your mind around. That is why words like Nature or Totality are helpful as they are already hard to wrap around making them less problematic and better pointers.

Craving not to be is a desire, but that's different from disliking/ not craving being.

Disliking is also a craving just as craving to not crave. Is it such a problem to admit to craving not to be, your rejecting of the reality of any "dream world" for some personal dislike? It would be perfectly natural to go through that.

"where nothing really exists so nothing can be dream-like either"

That's just not true at all, how are dreams dream-like then if nothing exists? How do I even know what a dream is.

With "really" existing I meant inherently, objectively, isolated existing. Appearances and experiences come and go but each of those only become "real" if there's a truth value, with truth being derived from consistency, relation, relevance and naturalness. Those terms are a bit limiting and perhaps too quickly chosen here but this is about "when something becomes real" and that is not by "existing" somewhere in dreams or any other state of mind.

Lol, it is not made up of star dust, matter is an illusion of the senses, the wall your seeing is made up of the same stuff the walls in your imagination are made up of, did they come from star dust?

You're not the brightest bulb are you when it comes to reading and comprehending texts, or was I being that obscure? My line about star dust addressed your belief that ones "whole existence is made up of feelings and transient sensations". Since these are mystical unexplainable terms, one could just as well say "star dust". But at least I wrote "preferring to believe" because that is what it boils down to. You need to come down of your tower and start addressing what can be certain in your mind and learn how to be accurate about it when expressing it. Otherwise you will continue confusing yourself and others with a half-baked truth which is held unto with great conviction but not very firm at all.

Lol sorry about the star dust thing

I wouldn't mind calling god, mother nature, although I am referring more to the void from which experiences arises, and there is one common essence, not that I can conceptualize the totality but the only differences that exist in the universe are distinguished differences of that endlessly changing "screen" or "stream" of consciousness/existence, like looking at one body of changing water or haze, there is a common source that we can be sure of.

I get what your saying, don't make it a goal, I am not rejecting the reality of here, I'm just under the impression my awareness of things is "expanding", becoming more aware, what is a higher existence but more awareness? Attachment to body ensures that awareness is narrow and limited.

"learn how to be accurate about it when expressing it"

That is exactly what I was asking for help with, I have almost no hope at expressing it both because it shouldn't be described in words and I can't do that as well as your or others could, both because I don't really put much effort in (Laziness) and I just don't have the same skill, the best I can do is "point" at the concept and that only works if people like you already have seen.

If you could best describe "illusion" and hollowness, or this: "On the contrary my teaching is based upon the recognition that the objective world, like a vision, is a manifestation of the mind itself;" - Buddha

To someone who had absolutely no clue, was still clouded by the dust, how would you do it? You have seen some of my shoddy attempts in this post or me just simply saying it's a dream with dream characteristics haha and like you say that doesn't work for people who don't know what I'm talking about

John, that which cannot be described cannot be decribed for a reason, it is the source of all things.

One can, however, rest in that which cannot be described, that which is the source of all things, which means letting go of all projections of what "IT" is, if indeed, rest/peace in the source/silence of you is what you desire. If it is not, then you will continue to live in the projections of "what might be" or "what should be."

It's up to you.

I reached an epiphany last night and found the true meaning of silence and "eternal"

For this comment did not follow the previous, it did not come after nor did the previous come before

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Jesus spoke of God, Lao tzu spoke of "great mother" and "master carpenter", Confucius spoke of God and Socrates spoke of our divinity. That's all three of the people who most notably declared "not-knowing is true knowledge" who had knowledge, just saying, you think not-knowing is related to this when it isn't, clearly.

Craving not to be is a desire, but that's different from disliking/ not craving being.

"where nothing really exists so nothing can be dream-like either"

That's just not true at all, how are dreams dream-like then if nothing exists? How do I even know what a dream is.


Lol, it is not made up of star dust, matter is an illusion of the senses, the wall your seeing is made up of the same stuff the walls in your imagination are made up of, did they come from star dust?

Yes. The kosmos related to fact prove the existence of star dust in our universe. It takes a big part of our imagination to begin with zero. Where did they come from-where did they come from. I took the walk of telepathy years ago in my trifling military service-and-through, and fro I've seen a whole X of matter which I tugged from the universe and found that in our life time there are particles of existence outside our world which has a conscious being.
In fact, the world is a result from the big bang theory. Everything that is laced from the beginning is laced to the thought of our existence.

I agree.

Did you just agree with yourself? There is no beginning, there is nothing but illusion, appearances, experiences. They do not emanate from some physical place.

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:...although I am referring more to the void from which experiences arises, and there is one common essence, not that I can conceptualize the totality but the only differences that exist in the universe are distinguished differences of that endlessly changing "screen" or "stream" of consciousness/existence, like looking at one body of changing water or haze, there is a common source that we can be sure of.

So you have the experiences and the void. Not sure what else to say about it really. We can try to talk about something underlying but it has so many names. Most names unfortunately imply a substance or something acting as the causal agent. But it's important not to create such way out for people to exchange materialism for "essence", "intel inside" or a mechanical universe for a mystical universe "powered by Intel". It's an exchange which doesn't accomplish any fundamental shift.

"learn how to be accurate about it when expressing it". That is exactly what I was asking for help with, I have almost no hope at expressing it both because it shouldn't be described in words and I can't do that as well as your or others could, both because I don't really put much effort in (Laziness) and I just don't have the same skill, the best I can do is "point" at the concept and that only works if people like you already have seen.

You're doing great and you don't seem to mind some of the more harsh or confronting sounding elements often happening in these discussions. The reason I believe these elements are often there is simply because we have only a few lines to make a certain case in this format. It has to stand out and contrast, get to the target quickly. Like the so-called elevator pitch. The alternative would be to write longer articles or even books but the risk with that is the proliferation of (that) form.

To someone who had absolutely no clue, was still clouded by the dust, how would you do it?

I'm not that of an evangelist myself. But for a mind to be open to this, it needs to be curious, sensitive and observing already and it wouldn't be needed to go over the basics, like that things are never as they seem. From that it's after all only a small step to things not being at all. Perhaps there's a role for art here as well. Certainly stories and parables have been used a lot but they have the risk of people interpreting them too literaly or even completely ass backwards. However there's more to say about this last bit which cannot fit in this limited space.

Diebert: Certainly stories and parables have been used a lot but they have the risk of people interpreting them too literaly or even completely ass backwards. However there's more to say about this last bit which cannot fit in this limited space.

John, for me, myths and metaphors of spriit were very helpful in cleaning out my mind of its intellectual covering of causality. It was within this banner of the value of myth and metaphor that I arrived at this forum. I sense in you some of this language. After my awakening to my mind fighting the wisdom of the silence beyond the mind, I gave my mythical, metaphorical spirit of word free rein, telling stories to myself of the two worlds of which I had become aware, the invisible, unnamed world, cause, and the visible named world, its effect. What was critical to my use of myth and metaphor as right view was that at no time did I step out of my realization that no word or image could make the invisible cause reveal "its face."

What I was doing without realizing it [in the early stages] was performing the activity of consciousness of the bible scripture "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." For me, the myths and metaphors that transformed were those of the bible . A quick summary of the structure and pattern of these biblical inspirations that cleaned my "dirty mirror":

The spirit cause unknown to the intellect is the spirit cause introduced in Genesis 1, "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created..." and the spirit cause that arises from this rest of infinite silence as the finite mind of sense interpretation is the Lord God [nature God] introduced in verse 4 of Genesis 2 "in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground."

The coming of Christ in this story of unknown causes and imagined causes is the coming of wisdom of the reconciling of these two worlds, the coming of the single eye, the eye of nonduality. The coming of Christ is also the coming of the way of attaining this wisdom, the way of carrying one's own cross of attachment to their sense interpretations, of believing [in ignorance] that the Lord God of good and evil [pleasure and pain] is THE cause of the world. Myths and metaphors are also attributed to the teachings of the Buddha [overcoming Mara, for example], which he addressed in his parable of the raft, which in essence, says use what you can to get across the river of the moving mind [the raft of myth and prayer] to make it still, but always remember, at some point, the raft will have to be abandoned.

The mind loves stories, it exists for stories, even those that are purposed to uncling its clinging to its intelligence. Is growing your wisdom/giving life to your meditations by way of the raft of myth and metaphor something you have considered?

Wrote a comment...wasn't logged in. Short version:

"By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive."

"Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder that brings forth out of his treasures things new and old."

Anyone with a sure grasping is like an important spiritual teacher with the capability to bring forth good fruit.

"A thousand candles can be lit from a single one and the life of that candle will not decrease; happiness doesn't lessen through being shared" - Buddha

If you must glorify yourselves that others may not only hear but listen, do so. And if you must glorify others so that they too may believe in their own capability to bring forth good fruit, do so.
In this age we are not limited to thirty, sixty, or a hundred... but it is well within our capability to bring forth a thousand, ten thousand, or even a hundred thousand.

A small stone creates small ripples, a great stone shakes all the waters.
A good shepherd leads, an intelligent one transforms, that his effect may go far beyond his personal compass.

I have no genius friend! =O