A handout for statists

Post questions or suggestions here.
User avatar
Shahrazad
Posts: 1813
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:03 pm

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Shahrazad »

Ryan said,
I think it is just as cruel to barely keep starving people alive in some desolate desert then to simply ignore them and allow their populations to drop to sustainable levels, where the remaining ones can survive more comfortably. Sending food and water is interfering with natural selection, which has a certain intelligence to it. If you overpopulate in an area that cannot support it, you should face the causal consequences, rather than being bailed out by the western governments.
Wow, you are a social Darwinist.

Nat, aren't you going to say "appalling" to this post? Or does social Darwinism not appall you any more?

-
User avatar
Unidian
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:00 pm
Contact:

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Unidian »

No, it's as appalling as ever, but there's only so many times one can point it out before their own character comes into some question for repeatedly engaging it.

But, just for you, why not.

Appalling!
I live in a tub.
User avatar
Dan Rowden
Posts: 5740
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Dan Rowden »

Frankly, if a people are too stupid to realise that their habitat cannot sustain their population and therefore with every new life they bring into the world they increase suffering, they don't deserve to exist; in fact, I'll go further and say they are evil. I'm all for socially darwinising such people out of existence, if education fails.

Of course, much of the suffering in a place like Africa arises out of issues like war and governmental tyranny - things that we could in fact address if we gave a shit, but we don't. Nevertheless, the point about resources and population remains, whatever the causes of the imbalance.
User avatar
Unidian
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:00 pm
Contact:

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Unidian »

"Stupid" has little to do with it. The biological drives instilled by evolution will eventually beat rational considerations every time. The smartest people in the world are susceptible to acting like animals on occasion - because they *are* animals, at least biologically. And anyone who calls themselves an exception, I'll call a liar.
I live in a tub.
User avatar
Dan Rowden
Posts: 5740
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Dan Rowden »

Unidian wrote:"Stupid" has little to do with it.
It has everything to do with it.
The biological drives instilled by evolution will eventually beat rational considerations every time.
Only in stupid, irrational people. I don't have a problem with socially darwinising stupid, irrational people out of existence - which is really to say dawinising stupidity and irrationality out of existence. Rationality is also a drive instilled by evolution. I vote for selecting for it.
The smartest people in the world are susceptible to acting like animals on occasion - because they *are* animals, at least biologically.
The first part of that is certainly true enough; the second is irrelevant.
And anyone who calls themselves an exception, I'll call a liar.
The way you worded things only a perfect Buddha could make such a claim, so you're pretty safe.
User avatar
Unidian
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:00 pm
Contact:

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Unidian »

Only in stupid, irrational people. I don't have a problem with socially darwinising stupid, irrational people out of existence - which is really to say dawinising stupidity and irrationality out of existence. Rationality is also a drive instilled by evolution. I vote for selecting for it.
Elevating rationality to the status of an absolute or a religious doctrine in a trans-rational universe is a profoundly irrational thing to do. In addition, it's no different that any of the other absolute values used by all social Darwinists to justify their schemes to let people die.

Rationality is a tool which is quite often useful. But it is not the holy grail, nor is it an acceptable justification for dehumanizing people.
I live in a tub.
User avatar
Dan Rowden
Posts: 5740
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 8:03 pm
Contact:

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Dan Rowden »

You're on one of your moral binges, right?
User avatar
Unidian
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:00 pm
Contact:

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Unidian »

"Moral binges?" No, not that I know of, unless you count pretty much one's entire life as a "moral binge."

Are you on one of your amoral binges?
I live in a tub.
User avatar
DHodges
Posts: 1531
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2002 8:20 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Contact:

Re: A handout for statists

Post by DHodges »

Unidian wrote:Elevating rationality to the status of an absolute or a religious doctrine in a trans-rational universe is a profoundly irrational thing to do.
Can you define what you mean by transrational, as it applies to the universe?
User avatar
Nick
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:39 pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Nick »

Unidian wrote:Elevating rationality to the status of an absolute or a religious doctrine in a trans-rational universe is a profoundly irrational thing to do. In addition, it's no different that any of the other absolute values used by all social Darwinists to justify their schemes to let people die.

Rationality is a tool which is quite often useful. But it is not the holy grail, nor is it an acceptable justification for dehumanizing people.
Unidian,

You have no place even speaking the word rationality let alone judging other's actions as rational or irrational. If anyone has elevated anything to a religious doctrine it is you and the way you irrationally subsrcibe to humanism as if it were the holy grail.
User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Dan,
Of course, much of the suffering in a place like Africa arises out of issues like war and governmental tyranny - things that we could in fact address if we gave a shit, but we don't.
The world has voiced its concerns over atrocities such as Darfar, and that is all that can be done, but people want more. People demand immediate action to appease their emotional outrage, but western militaries were destined specifically for self-defense purposes only, and not for policing the world, so to send foreign troops into a war torn area is going against their original purpose.

However, if NATO wants to attempt to recruit multiple volunteer countries to send a small number of troops each into Darfar to try to prevent bloodshed then that is more acceptable, as it puts fewer burdens on one particular country, and therefore fewer burdens on one particular group of tax payers.

NATO generally doesn't work over the long-term though because governments tend to pull their troops out prematurely, as at a particular point, the costs outweigh the benefits. and the gains made on the ground, and so many times NATO missions end prematurely, as we are seeing in Afghanistan, as many countries are losing their resolve for the mission itself.

Shahrazad,
Wow, you are a social Darwinist.
Foreign aid generally doesn’t work over the long term anyway, and it lacks an understanding of the causes of poverty. Dan is right, war and government tyranny are causes of poverty, but many times desolate environmental conditions that do not support life create the desperation that give rise to war and government tyranny. Environments that do not support life should not be propped up to continue supporting life, that is the real cruelty. Moreover, if you send western food into an overpopulated slum town, only a fraction are fed, and not consistently. Where is the justice in that? It is just a token of fake compassion rooted in a false comprehension of causality.

Basically - If you could see very clearly that a castle was build on a foundation of sand very close to the ocean shore, Would you continue building new levels, and blocking the oceans path with dams and stones? Or would you cease all effort and simply allow nature’s inevitable force to break through and quickly pulverize the castle out of existence?

Because many times, our ‘moral actions’ and ‘good intentions’ actually perpetuate humanities suffering by merely sustaining an ugly situation with a thin film of sugar coating, generally referred to as foreign aid.
User avatar
Unidian
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:00 pm
Contact:

Re: A handout for statists

Post by Unidian »

DHodges,
Can you define what you mean by transrational, as it applies to the universe?
Sure, but why send me to Wiktionary, which rather comically includes an amateurish ad hominem remark on its definition page:
This word often seems to be a wooly word that is defined afresh by anyone who uses it. Using it may cast doubt on the referent and the referrer.
Meh... oh well, it's a wiki. What I mean by "trans-rational" is simply "beyond rationality." Existence includes things which can be rationally understood, and in fact all "things" are amenable to rational understanding. But the whole, the sum of all things, is not. It's a standard position in Zen and Taoism, not that such appeals to authority should matter, except that QRS claim to represent those traditions.

Nick,
You have no place even speaking the word rationality let alone judging other's actions as rational or irrational.
Don't you ever get tired of righteous indignation for the sake of The Truth?
If anyone has elevated anything to a religious doctrine it is you and the way you irrationally subscribe to humanism as if it were the holy grail.
Yeah, Nick, that's a very accurate description of my attitude toward humanism. I guess that's why, while affirming humanism for pragmatic purposes, I disagree with a number of its political views as well as its general overly generous attitude toward human nature.

Don't project your own credulous and/or dogmatic tendencies onto others. Don't you ever get tired of taking wild swings at me only to fall down? Meh, maybe you've got some subconscious masochistic thing going on. Deep-seated self-loathing is certainly not out of the question in such cases.
I live in a tub.
User avatar
DHodges
Posts: 1531
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2002 8:20 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Contact:

Transrational

Post by DHodges »

Unidian wrote:Meh... oh well, it's a wiki. What I mean by "trans-rational" is simply "beyond rationality." Existence includes things which can be rationally understood, and in fact all "things" are amenable to rational understanding. But the whole, the sum of all things, is not. It's a standard position in Zen and Taoism, not that such appeals to authority should matter, except that QRS claim to represent those traditions.
Okay, thanks.
Locked