GENIUS FORUMS

The only truth I know:

I am consciously aware and I did not create my conscious awareness of me.

Therefore,

My struggle to understand the why of, the how of, the when of, the what of my conscious awareness of me is one of futility.

Therefore,

I am no longer struggling to understand me.

However,

Just because I understand that all struggling to understand me is a struggle of futility, does not mean that I will cease struggling to understand me. This struggling to peer into my conscious awareness as if a logical beginning of me can be found is a pattern of thinking that is as old as the metaphorical Adam-man himself.

Which means,

That the only path of Truth, for me, is one where I acknowledges that my "I am" cannot live consciously in truth or from truth or of truth, because any conscious awareness that is contemplated upon is my moment past manipulated to suit or fit my moment of now.

Which means,

I am a complete mystery to me of the cause of my awareness of me.

Which means,

That when logic is being used by me when speaking of the mystery of me, this logic is not of the intellect of finding a cause, rather, is of the intent to provide a a vision for me that will break the spell of my long-held belief that I can [consciously] know me.

Which means,

Should someone step into my vision of the compassionate sword of the logic of Mystery and see themselves in the spirit of my words, so be it. Should someone step into my vision of the compassionate sword of logic of Mystery and not see themselves in the spirit of my words, so be it.

Whatever is "you" (whatever appears in your field of awareness) is caused by what is beyond your field of awareness. But you are made up of your causes. So everything you experience, and everything you don't experience, is ultimately you.

As Sankara said, "Tat tvam asi" (thou art that).


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Hi Kelly,

Whatever is "you" (whatever appears in your field of awareness) is caused by what is beyond your field of awareness. But you are made up of your causes. So everything you experience, and everything you don't experience, is ultimately you.

I am assuming that you are not using 'cause' here to indicate a 'beginning point', as if in time and space, that you are using 'cause' as a way to go through the mind [what is your field of awareness] to go beyond the mind [what is not your field of awareness].

It is not possible to determine a logical cause of our conscious awareness, for there is no logic for conscious awareness to be. Because of this truth that life is without logic except in the human mind as it gropes to find its way through the maze of its subjective-objective attachments, I prefer the metaphor "the law of the Spirit of life" or "omnipresent God or Life" when referring to THAT which created both invisible and visible forms. What was so helpful for me in using this metaphor, is that I was able to envision [without attachment to the object envisioned, as it is of an I Am revelation] an Invisible Thinker of omniety that is the originator, sustainer and mover of the perfect harmony and order of Its spirit forms of I AM THAT.

For me, the metaphor "cause" was one of those 'boats' or 'bridges' I was talking about in an earlier post. I used it as a way to 'see me' but let it go when it no longer 'fit' my vision.

Man lives in a reality which has no logic or reasoning to be or exist. So man's belief that matter and flesh are real thrives because men cannot comprehend their journey into the maze of their thoughts is an illusion. In this illusionary state of belief there is a beginning birth, growth, maturity, reverse evolution, and death. Men do not enter into this state of being, because this state of being could not exist if man's thoughts were not the foundation, forming, and building of it. This means any state of being man is aware of lives in the man not the other way around.

Human thoughts are man's contemporary ideas of ancient interpretations compiled to form his contemporary illusory state of being. Man's beliefs are also the states of being which are the fabric and structure of man's physical thought existence. The physical man is what he thinks, believes, and his interpretation of those beliefs appearing to him as his outer objective visions, or inner subjective feelings, which are the forms of his states of being being stated by him.

A state of being is totally dependent upon the trend of thought being thought. Death does not void the thinkers dependence upon the thought. This state of being neither adds anything to the thought, nor takes anything away from the thought. It gives the reality of what is thought to the thinker whole, perfect, complete, and pure until that state of thought either becomes the living demonstration of the man, or has been eliminated from the thinker's soul by the purification of obedience and mercy of the Mind of Christ.

Now it is to be understood man living according to his thought formation in this plane of Consciousness is made visible and invisible in harmory to the pictures, words, an space which man visualize and accept as reality. We all know Life is our reality and Reality is our life. So then the human consciousness, locked within the ceiling and walls of the collective universal human mind, is in a state of imprisonment within the human state of thought. This imprisoned human state of thought keeps the spirit of man earthbound in the non-material principle of "everything after its kind."

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

movingalways wrote:It is not possible to determine a logical cause of our conscious awareness, for there is no logic for conscious awareness to be. Because of this truth that life is without logic except in the human mind as it gropes to find its way through the maze of its subjective-objective attachments, I prefer the metaphor "the law of the Spirit of life" or "omnipresent God or Life" when referring to THAT which created both invisible and visible forms. What was so helpful for me in using this metaphor, is that I was able to envision [without attachment to the object envisioned, as it is of an I Am revelation] an Invisible Thinker of omniety that is the originator, sustainer and mover of the perfect harmony and order of Its spirit forms of I AM THAT.

What pure waffle.

There is no 'going through the mind' .(Unless you are lost and looking in vain for something in it)

movingalways,

When I use the term "cause", I generally mean something that is responsible for the existence of something else. If consciousness exists, then it is caused by something beyond it. Logically, one cannot know for sure what caused consciousness, since whatever one imagines will be a thing appearing in consciousness.

It is not possible to determine a logical cause of our conscious awareness, for there is no logic for conscious awareness to be.

There is. Consciousness exists because it is caused to be. We don't have to fall into the trap of finding actual causes or reasons for consciousness, for the reason given above.

There is the logic for you.

Logic does exist, and it is used to understand the nature of Reality, which I could also call God, or Spirit.


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Kelly Jones wrote:

There is. Consciousness exists because it is caused to be. We don't have to fall into the trap of finding actual causes or reasons for consciousness, for the reason given above.

There is the logic for you.

Logic does exist, and it is used to understand the nature of Reality, which I could also call God, or Spirit.

This is pure hogwash: Why, because to say logic is used to understand something, then the logic of that something to exist must demonstrate the logic for that something to exist. Kelly, not anyone here can give such logic because she cannot give a logical reason for existence to exist. If there is no logical cause to logical expound the logic for your existence, then where is the cause for logic to exist Kelly?

If you continue to say to understand the nature of Reality, or God, or Spirit what Reality, or God, or Spirit are you defining which can be logically defined Kelly?

If you ignore the questions, then it is evidence you do not know what you are talking about, and you are just prattling.

If you ignore the question it is a telling sign of your intellect. There is this saying by a person named jufa which says,

You are only as good as those you come up against

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

There is no 'going through the mind' .(Unless you are lost and looking in vain for something in it)

Ya, like the prince looking for his other personality Mr. Frog, or

the tin man looking for a heart so he can have a life beyond cans.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

jufa wrote:Ya, like the prince looking for his other personality Mr. Frog, or

the tin man looking for a heart so he can have a life beyond cans.

Or jufa only being able to find meaning in duality.

prince wrote:

jufa wrote:Ya, like the prince looking for his other personality Mr. Frog, or

the tin man looking for a heart so he can have a life beyond cans.

Or jufa only being able to find meaning in duality.

Yep, especially when there is none. Silly jufa.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

prince wrote:

movingalways wrote:It is not possible to determine a logical cause of our conscious awareness, for there is no logic for conscious awareness to be. Because of this truth that life is without logic except in the human mind as it gropes to find its way through the maze of its subjective-objective attachments, I prefer the metaphor "the law of the Spirit of life" or "omnipresent God or Life" when referring to THAT which created both invisible and visible forms. What was so helpful for me in using this metaphor, is that I was able to envision [without attachment to the object envisioned, as it is of an I Am revelation] an Invisible Thinker of omniety that is the originator, sustainer and mover of the perfect harmony and order of Its spirit forms of I AM THAT.

What pure waffle.

There is no 'going through the mind' .(Unless you are lost and looking in vain for something in it)

"The prince of this world cometh, and he hath nothing in me."

jufa wrote:Kelly Jones: Consciousness exists because it is caused to be. We don't have to fall into the trap of finding actual causes or reasons for consciousness, for the reason given above. There is the logic for you. Logic does exist, and it is used to understand the nature of Reality, which I could also call God, or Spirit.

jufa: This is pure hogwash: Why, because to say logic is used to understand something, then the logic of that something to exist must demonstrate the logic for that something to exist. Kelly, not anyone here can give such logic because she cannot give a logical reason for existence to exist.

Existence itself is not caused to exist. That would be a category error. Things exist because of causes, but existence itself can't be said to be caused.

If there is no logical cause to logical expound the logic for your existence, then where is the cause for logic to exist Kelly?

Your reasoning is bizarre here, mate. Very wobbly. There's no intelligent designer out there reasoning why I should exist, and - voila! - I pop into existence. But if my parents reasoned that they wanted to have sex and produce another child, then that might be a "logical cause". It's stretching the meaning of the word, though.

So, whether or not an intelligent designer exists to bring people into existence has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of logic. The latter exists because it is caused to, and I've explained that the specific causes for consciousness cannot be known.

If you continue to say to understand the nature of Reality, or God, or Spirit what Reality, or God, or Spirit are you defining which can be logically defined Kelly?

The nature of Everything, logically defined as that which is true for all things.

If you ignore the questions, then it is evidence you do not know what you are talking about, and you are just prattling.

If you ignore the question it is a telling sign of your intellect.

Well, I generally ignore questions or responses when interacting with a perceptive and thoughtful bloke, who has just made an obvious mistake. Such individuals tend to work things out quickly anyway.


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movingalways wrote:I prefer the metaphor "the law of the Spirit of life" or "omnipresent God
or Life" when referring to THAT which created both invisible and visible forms.

Yes, I've tended to refer to the above as the "God spark". No beginning=no ending.

The now-available human technology that can measure, 'detect' a heartbeat inside the mother's womb. Wow.

Our 11-year-old brought that home to us. Ultrasound etc. just woke me up to the God Spark like our 6 other children before never quite did. Remember still some 12 years ago in the MD's 'office visit' seeing our child developing...

Thanks, Pam

Kelly stated:
Existence itself is not caused to exist. That would be a category error. Things exist because of causes, but existence itself can't be said to be caused.

Why can't existence be the cause of itself? Until you can stated the cause of existence, then existence exist here, there, and everywhere. Why? Be -cause of existence. If this is not true, if this is not real, if this is not the reality of Reality, then you my Dear, give me the Cause for existence please.

Kelly wrote:
Your reasoning is bizarre here, mate. Very wobbly. There's no intelligent designer out there reasoning why I should exist, and - voila! - I pop into existence. But if my parents reasoned that they wanted to have sex and produce another child, then that might be a "logical cause". It's stretching the meaning of the word, though.

So, whether or not an intelligent designer exists to bring people into existence has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of logic. The latter exists because it is caused to, and I've explained that the specific causes for consciousness cannot be known.

Kelly, all abstractions are wobbly, or non-discernable to any mind that is in a war with itelf. But let us examine ourselves here. Said nothing about an intelligent designer, for this would mean objectification, and objectification must have a subject that is known. I know nothing about an intelligent designer, do you? If you do, you have correctly put my words in the grave of absurdity. But you have copy cated this saying from what you learned of someone else or you would have presented evidence of this intelligent designer.

Your logic about your parents is even more far out man then your intelligent designer because you have not provided a cause for procreation to have a purpose to bring you into this dimension. For what purpose were you born, and what cause was you birth purposed?

And if the specificif cause for consciousness cannot be know, then consciousness has no cause to be, and this put you and I right back to the question that logic is illogical in man's attempt to be logical about existence and all within existence when no one can point to the logic for existence of anything before the effects which came forth by cause.

Kelly wrote:
The nature of Everything, logically defined as that which is true for all things.

If this be true, then you can logically explain Everything's causal nature of why anything exist. Please do so by presenting evidence of purpose.

Kelly wrote:
Well, I generally ignore questions or responses when interacting with a perceptive and thoughtful bloke, who has just made an obvious mistake. Such individuals tend to work things out quickly anyway.

Not you Kelly, and your insistance of authoritative intellect of being right in other threads bear witness this is not your style. What it comes down to is this people is

You're only as good as those you come up against

Do you understand it is this comprehension which makes one defensive, insulting, degrading to another because they can't deal with what is before them, etc., etc.

No one can every think, or believe they have arrived anywhere when there is no where to go but either up or down within their own human mentality. Person such as these will descend and live in the horizonalness of ignorance, or ascend to the vertical of betterment for the whole body of "Christ in them, their hope of glory."

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

jufa wrote:KJ: Existence itself is not caused to exist. That would be a category error. Things exist because of causes, but existence itself can't be said to be caused.

jufa: Why can't existence be the cause of itself?

Because it isn't dualistic. It isn't something separable from something else. It can't come into existence, like dualistic things, which is the sense of causation.

you have not provided a cause for procreation to have a purpose to bring you into this dimension. For what purpose were you born, and what cause was you birth purposed?

There is no ultimate purpose or meaning to my birth. It's just cause and effect. Purpose is something consciousness attributes to things. Nature doesn't have any intrinsic purposefulness.

There is also no ultimate purpose bringing logic into existence. One could say it's a mechanistic by-product of evolution, to help convey this.

And if the specificif cause for consciousness cannot be know, then consciousness has no cause to be,

You don't know all the specific causes for how your breakfast was made, yet it exists, and you eat it and are nourished by it.

KJ: The nature of Everything, logically defined as that which is true for all things.

jufa: If this be true, then you can logically explain Everything's causal nature of why anything exist. Please do so by presenting evidence of purpose.

Causation is why dualistic things exist. Causation has no purpose.



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KJ wrote:

Because it isn't dualistic. It isn't something separable from something else. It can't come into existence, like dualistic things, which is the sense of causation.

If this is dtrue, what then is the cause for dualsim?

KJ wrote:

There is no ultimate purpose or meaning to my birth. It's just cause and effect. Purpose is something consciousness attributes to things. Nature doesn't have any intrinsic purposefulness.

There is also no ultimate purpose bringing logic into existence. One could say it's a mechanistic by-product of evolution, to help convey this.

How do you know this? And why are you alive giving purpose to this conversation since purpose is not an inherent essence of your being?

KJ wrote:

There is also no ultimate purpose bringing logic into existence. One could say it's a mechanistic by-product of evolution, to help convey this.

What then is the ultimate purpose for bringing existence into logic? One could say a lot of things, but one cannot say what is the logic for existence. Can you?

KJ wrote:

You don't know all the specific causes for how your breakfast was made, yet it exists, and you eat it and are nourished by it.

The only cause I know are the cause I apply to whatever because of my interpretations adapted by a system set forth by my ancestors. In this sense, we are all followers of what our ancestors put on us.

KJ wrote:

Causation is why dualistic things exist. Causation has no purpose.

Ha, ha, look how long it took us to get back where we stated from. And we started with what is the logical cause of causation in a nut shell?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

jufa wrote:

Kelly Jones wrote:Because [existence] isn't dualistic. It isn't something separable from something else. It can't come into existence, like dualistic things, which is the sense of causation.

If this is dtrue, what then is the cause for dualsim?

Your question is wrongly put. Dualism is causation (the contrast of things). So dualism cannot be caused, since this would require dualism to contrast dualism with itself.

jufa wrote:

Kelly Jones wrote:There is no ultimate purpose or meaning to my birth. It's just cause and effect. Purpose is something consciousness attributes to things. Nature doesn't have any intrinsic purposefulness.

How do you know this? And why are you alive giving purpose to this conversation since purpose is not an inherent essence of your being?

I know that there is no ultimate purpose because cause and effect is not conscious, and only consciousness creates purposes. I'm purposeful because having a purpose is part of being a conscious organism, not part of causation itself.

jufa wrote:

Kelly Jones wrote:There is also no ultimate purpose bringing logic into existence. One could say it's a mechanistic by-product of evolution, to help convey this.

What then is the ultimate purpose for bringing existence into logic?

There is no ultimate purpose for anything. Cause and effect doesn't have any conscious attributes, like purposes.

one cannot say what is the logic for existence. Can you?

If you're saying there is no ultimate reason for existence to exist, I would say you're barking up the wrong tree. Existence has always been, so it is meaningless to consider why it is, as if there is any alternative.

jufa wrote:

Kelly Jones wrote:You don't know all the specific causes for how your breakfast was made, yet it exists, and you eat it and are nourished by it.

The only cause I know are the cause I apply to whatever because of my interpretations adapted by a system set forth by my ancestors. In this sense, we are all followers of what our ancestors put on us.

So you are happy to eat breakfast with a limited understanding of specific causes. It's the same with consciousness. You can be nourished by it, knowing it exists, yet you don't know all the specific causes for it.

jufa wrote:

Kelly Jones wrote:Causation is why dualistic things exist. Causation has no purpose.

Ha, ha, look how long it took us to get back where we stated from. And we started with what is the logical cause of causation in a nut shell?

I'm repeating the same ideas to you. The idea of looking for causes for causation is utterly mindless.


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Hi Kelly! Good conversation huh? You wrote:

Your question is wrongly put. Dualism is causation (the contrast of things). So dualism cannot be caused, since this would require dualism to contrast dualism with itself.

My question is not wrongly put. What seems out-of-place is you cannot say what causation for dualism is, so you deal with dualsim as it is the beginning, middle, and end of EVERYTHING.
What are you saying jufa? I am saying you cannot deal with the effects of that which is issued into existence by a cause and not name or define the Cause except by effect. To put it in a nutshell to you, what is the Cause of Cause? If you continue to say it is dualism, then you cannot ignore the contrast which is singularity. Both have to be the cause because they existed from, because, and as each others. Where do you separate the dual from the singular? How can you do that? Please explain!

Kelly wrote"

I know that there is no ultimate purpose because cause and effect is not conscious, and only consciousness creates purposes. I'm purposeful because having a purpose is part of being a conscious organism, not part of causation itself.

How can you say that Kelly, when you are aware consciously of cause and effect? If having a purpose i part of a conscious organism, then you must consider your being a part of the universal organism of creation. So now, what is the purposeful cause of the creative organism of the universe?

Kelly wrote:

There is no ultimate purpose for anything. Cause and effect doesn't have any conscious attributes, like purposes.

How can you say this Kelly, when it is a truth, and a present truth that whatsoever you think upon, there is the ultimate conscious awareness of you giving life of purpose to that which you are, and have thought upon. If this is wrong, why then do you think?

Kelly wrote:

If you're saying there is no ultimate reason for existence to exist, I would say you're barking up the wrong tree. Existence has always been, so it is meaningless to consider why it is, as if there is any alternative.

You can't have it both ways Kelly. You can't say there is no purpose of cause, then say the cause has always been the purpose. If I am wrong, then tell me what is the logic for existence. If it is cause, as you say in contrast, in contrast to what being you have stated in the immediate there isn't any alternative of contrast.

Kelly wrote:

So you are happy to eat breakfast with a limited understanding of specific causes. It's the same with consciousness. You can be nourished by it, knowing it exists, yet you don't know all the specific causes for it.

Yes, and you are also, because:

And dont forget in doing something for others that you have what you have because of others. (Yes, sir) Dont forget that. We are tied together in life and in the world. (Preach, preach) And you may think you got all you got by yourself. (Not all of it) But you know, before you got out here to church this morning, you were dependent on more than half of the world. (Thats right) You get up in the morning and go to the bathroom, and you reach over for a bar of soap, and thats handed to you by a Frenchman. You reach over for a sponge, and thats given to you by a turk. You reach over for a towel, and that comes to your hand from the hands of a Pacific Islander. And then you go on to the kitchen to get your breakfast. You reach on over to get a little coffee, and thats poured in your cup by a South American. (Thats right) Or maybe you decide that you want a little tea this morning, only to discover that thats poured in your cup by a Chinese. (Yes) Or maybe you want a little cocoa, thats poured in your cup by a West African. (Yes) Then you want a little bread and you reach over to get it, and thats given to you by the hands of an English-speaking farmer, not to mention the baker. (Thats right) Before you get through eating breakfast in the morning, youre dependent on more than half the world. (Thats right) Thats the way God structured it; thats the way God structured this world. So let us be concerned about others because we are dependent on others. M.L.King

Kelly wrote:

I'm repeating the same ideas to you. The idea of looking for causes for causation is utterly mindless.

That's okay Kelly, especially when there are new and improved thoughts opening up.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

movingalways wrote:I prefer the metaphor "the law of the Spirit of life" or "omnipresent God
or Life" when referring to THAT which created both invisible and visible forms.

Yes, I've tended to refer to the above as the "God spark". No beginning=no ending.

The now-available human technology that can measure, 'detect' a heartbeat inside the mother's womb. Wow.

Our 11-year-old brought that home to us. Ultrasound etc. just woke me up to the God Spark like our 6 other children before never quite did. Remember still some 12 years ago in the MD's 'office visit' seeing our child developing...

Thanks, Pam

My pleasure, Tomas.

What is so beneficial about the metaphor "the law of the Spirit of life," for me, is that it provides me with a vision of how dualism/the human mind appears, and yet, that which brings dualism/the human mind into appearance, is not, of Itself, dual. The biblical wisdom that refers to the law of the Spirit of life: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

A visual, which ideally should be centred on the page:



THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE
OR Unconditioned Mind of Invisible principles and patterns of Living Word or Order,
which gives rise to the ordered law of the opposites, aka:

( the appearance of the law of sin [sense of separation] and of death)



What the mind cannot see, because of the blinders of its belief in birth and in death of conscious awareness [symbolized by the parentheses] is that its belief in dualism is just that - a belief. No more, no less. And being a belief, that it can be dispelled or transcended so that, as Jesus said on the cross: "it [the law of the opposites] is finished [fulfilled]." How small-minded is man that he believes that the law of the opposites which gives rise to his [imagined] belief that he is permanent player in his world of causal-relative interpretations is the one and only law-expression of the infinity of the law of the Spirit of life?

Jufa, causation cannot be caused. Think about it.

If you want to argue that this is wrong, you'll be making the case that cause and effect is caused by something other than itself. Namely, that utter absence of causation is causing.

Clearly a foolish case to make. So, go ahead, but don't expect anyone to think it's a coherent argument.


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Kelly Jones wrote:Jufa, causation cannot be caused. Think about it.

If you want to argue that this is wrong, you'll be making the case that cause and effect is caused by something other than itself. Namely, that utter absence of causation is causing.

Clearly a foolish case to make. So, go ahead, but don't expect anyone to think it's a coherent argument.


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Hi Kelly, it may be foolish to you, and that okay, we walk this earth alone with only an occasion intrusio of another's Spirit touching our Spirit. However, if you don't mine my going this way, cause and effect are one and the same in the same. For example, Joseph Campbell one gave an illustration of God walking down a road with a hat red on one side and black on the other side. When He got to the end of the road He turn around and also turn His hat around. On each side of the road there were workers. Each side saw a different hat, and on the return, each side still saw the same color as before, and each swore up and down that God had a red, or a black hat. What is the trump of this story. Each side saw a different effect initiated by the same Cause. But the story did not end there for me. I asked myself what is the logic of a hat being worn with different colors by God? What came to me was the foolishness of man's interpretation of being right concerning what was seen, when all the foolishness could have been eliminated has just one individual stopped the human endeavor and approached God and asked for the hat - "ask and it shall be given unto you, seek and ye shall find-. Had this been done, the one would have been given the hat, and could have shown all and cleared up the confusion and chao. No a one was willing to go through that which was human to get onto the road of clarification. and so cause and effect abound.

Now the question must be asked, where did the God who wore the hat come from?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa