GENIUS FORUMS

A and B in conversation at work.

A: Yeah, I just got back walking down by the river. It is such a beautiful day.

B: It would be great to get on my bike and ride into the mountains today…but I won’t get home from church until 7:30. By then it will be too dark…and cold.

If B believes that God created all things and called them good. Then why is going to church more important than recognizing and appreciating that which the Creator made while on a bike riding into the mountains on a beautiful day?

If A had pointed this out to B, B would think A to be a horrible person. If B even entertained the thought, B would think himself shameful and chastise himself for his thought. If church causes one to feel guilt by failure to attend, how does that fall in line with Nature? Does Nature cause one to feel guilt for failure to attend to the better option? Why do people contain church in a building?

Why do they think they are doing the best thing for their soul by listening to a long-winded sermon on something that will slip out of their grasp the moment they leave for home (if it ever made sense to begin with), while a long bike ride into the mountains and the appreciation of Nature will be remembered for longer than the day and perhaps for months until Spring comes along again?

B is not a healthy individual. He is overweight and suffers from the maladies incidental thereto. The beautiful days we get this time of year are few and far between. Most of the time, it is damp and cold. He may never get another day like today, and he let it slip away.

B is a humble person and thinks himself ignorant of the Scripture because he cannot quote chapter and verse, and yet he seems to understand the truths behind the words.

A: Why do you feel it necessary to memorize the Scripture if you understand the point behind it?

B: Because I want to be able to argue intelligently with others and help lead others to God.

A: But you can already, probably have already just by thinking and discussing.

B: No, I can't. I want to be like my pastor.

So, what do you say to someone like B?

This is not a church banging thread, but a sincere question that begs an answer.

passthrough wrote:A and B in conversation at work.

A: Yeah, I just got back walking down by the river. It is such a beautiful day.

B: It would be great to get on my bike and ride into the mountains today…but I won’t get home from church until 7:30. By then it will be too dark…and cold.

If B believes that God created all things and called them good. Then why is going to church more important than recognizing and appreciating that which the Creator made while on a bike riding into the mountains on a beautiful day?

For some people going to church is more important, for others a trip into the countryside. For others, neither is important. Why are you making this value judgement for them about which is better?

If A had pointed this out to B, B would think A to be a horrible person. If B even entertained the thought, B would think himself shameful and chastise himself for his thought. If church causes one to feel guilt by failure to attend, how does that fall in line with Nature? Does Nature cause one to feel guilt for failure to attend to the better option?

One can feel guilty for anything, including not taking an outing in the country.

Why do people contain church in a building?

Traditionally it is because the building creates a power vortex for changing one's state of being via the geometry in the architecture, the acoustics, and the symbols displayed. Also, there is the fact of avoiding the seasonal weather during services.

Why do they think they are doing the best thing for their soul by listening to a long-winded sermon on something that will slip out of their grasp the moment they leave for home (if it ever made sense to begin with), while a long bike ride into the mountains and the appreciation of Nature will be remembered for longer than the day and perhaps for months until Spring comes along again?

This is a purely subjective view on your part, and amounts to church and christian bashing, despite you mentioning below that you were not doing this. Sermons are not necessarily "long-winded" or "something that will slip out of their grasp."

B is not a healthy individual. He is overweight and suffers from the maladies incidental thereto. The beautiful days we get this time of year are few and far between. Most of the time, it is damp and cold. He may never get another day like today, and he let it slip away.

So? Again, the value judgement about what you think this person should be doing, with the implication "if he knew what's good for him." Most people are not able to do what is good for them in an objective sense, i.e. ride the bike like he said he'd like to. I think a little compassion is in order towards the dude.

B is a humble person and thinks himself ignorant of the Scripture because he cannot quote chapter and verse, and yet he seems to understand the truths behind the words.

Ah, a person after your own heart. He's simple, noble, without pretense. Build him up. Make him a god.

A: Why do you feel it necessary to memorize the Scripture if you understand the point behind it?

B: Because I want to be able to argue intelligently with others and help lead others to God.

A good, clear answer.

A: But you can already, probably have already just by thinking and discussing.

B: No, I can't. I want to be like my pastor.

B is firm, knows where he is and where he wants to go.

So, what do you say to someone like B?

Nothing. Bless him and let him go. He's fine.

But you might want to ask yourself why you are so bothered?

This is not a church banging thread, but a sincere question that begs an answer.

It is not fair to expect others to be other than they are, and especially to be like you are, and for them to adopt your values.

CarlG:

But you might want to ask yourself why you are so bothered?

I shall, but I could ask the same of him.

Funny thing is that he is just as obnoxious about trying to get me to come to church and see his line of thinking. I went one time. His line of thinking sends me running the opposite direction. He kept sending me e-mails and dropping in to invite me over and again to these church functions after I had told him in no uncertain terms, I did not agree with his people and beliefs. I finally had to be rude and tell him to stop asking because I wasn't going back.

He is as guilty as I, but I suppose a wise person should have already seen it coming?

Given the added fact that he is no better than I, what would be your assessment of the situation now?

Two completely unconscious people?

passthrough,

Please do not judge yourself unconscious. You are at least partially self-aware, or you would not be shining a light upon this incident.

And do not compare your actions and attitudes to his overtly; did you try to strongarm him into going out into nature? In your mind, perhaps, but that is one major level removed from what he did to you, which was rude and out of line.

Disregard his actions. Pay attention to yours. Do consider the experience on a metaphysical level (personal, inner). Use it to sharpen your inner attention on the causes of the arising of your experience. What mental patterns could you correct or improve based on this incident?

If you clear this up, you will find that this particular challange (intolerance) will cease to reoccur.

I believe that somewhere the Bible stated that an alter was to be built of rough hewn stone. I have seen many alters, but not one of rough hewn stone. They are also usually quite adorned.

I believe Jesus taught outside much of the time, and although this is pure supposition on my part, I venture to say that he never taught in a building adorned with stained glass windows depicting his mother and himself. Often, the church is the fanciest building in the neighborhood. To me, that seems opposite of the legacy that Jesus wanted.

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Would 'petrified wood' be near-enough as a rough[ly]-hewn stone (boulder?).

How about a diamond in the rough? I've some petrified wood that may/may-not carve quite nicely into a graven image to adorn any religious church, synagogue, mosque, temple that may sprout any where in these worldly-earth systems. However, no incense or cut-flowers allowed!

(Petrified) sticks and (diamond) stones may break my (fossil) bones, but (jewelry) names will never hurt me.

A little nature-worship does the body good (god)



Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason


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Passthrough,

How old are you?

Dan Rowden wrote:Passthrough,

How old are you?

I am older than you. As a curiosity, why is age of any importance?

Please do not judge yourself unconscious. You are at least partially self-aware, or you would not be shining a light upon this incident.

Conscious vs unconscious. When you have been unconscious for the better part of your life, it is hard to know what has been engrained in your mind to let go and what is to stay. I like Solway's comparison of the worn path vs. the bush.

And do not compare your actions and attitudes to his overtly; did you try to strongarm him into going out into nature? In your mind, perhaps, but that is one major level removed from what he did to you, which was rude and out of line.

Absolutely not. In fact, if you will reread it, you will see that I gave the conditions for how he would react HAD I said anything at all...or if he HAD entertained the notion. I wanted to, but I stopped myself and decided to come here instead with my quandry...wondering if this was one of those well worn paths. This issue was one of those that I began to wonder if it was keeping me from seeing my ownself...you know other people are like mirrors. You find a speck in your brother's eye to pick out but it is just a small reflection of the beam in your own. If these things can be removed, one's eyes can be clear to see.

BTW, I am not making you guys cultic leaders, so don't even begin to think that. Some of you are just really honest, but you also have truth behind that honesty. I suppose honesty is a by-product of truth. Some are just rude. Unless and until you can give me a good, strong argument I won't listen to you at all. I think there are those on this board who are as blind as I and perhaps even much moreso, but who also think otherwise. Truth (truth vs Truth) makes itself known...all the other falls through the cracks because it makes no sense (All things being Truth).

Disregard his actions. Pay attention to yours. Do consider the experience on a metaphysical level (personal, inner). Use it to sharpen your inner attention on the causes of the arising of your experience. What mental patterns could you correct or improve based on this incident?

I shall. Good answer.

If you clear this up, you will find that this particular challange (intolerance) will cease to reoccur.

Intolerance may cease to exist, but when I see someone going down a road that leads the wrong way, I will never stop speaking to them of other options...just not in the way that my rant went on in the above example.

I have learned this on my child. She told me the other day that I had been her mother up until about 16. Although she lived with me and I supported her, she then turned to a friend's mother to be around every other minute until she was 19, and now I am her mother again. At the time, which is no secret, I was working up to a mental breakdown because of personal and professional stresses. I'm pretty sure I wasn't fit to be around anyone at the time. The friend's mother is one of those types of mother's that does not discipline, but accepts the girl's choices and let's them learn from them regardless of what the choices made...some I have found were very dangerous choices.

My daughter has outgrown her friend's type of mother and I have outgrown being a mother. I now tell her that nothing is black and white. If given a decision she must think about, I give her, to the best of my experience and knowledge, the consequences she must face if choosing one path over another. In some ways, I turned into her friend's mother but I use wisdom to help guide, and likewise, my daughter has her base to understand that flying by the seat of your pants gets you into a lot of trouble...IOW, she takes my advice a little more into consideration these days, but she makes the decision...not me.

Now, I must learn to look at the worn path to see what needs to be dug up to make it more bush-like.

And to EI,

Yes, Jesus used rocks as his pillows too, but church is inside you. Your heart is the altar, your soul is the spirit, your mind is the gift you have to recognize it all. Church is where you are. It is all that matters.

Edit: clarity

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Churchgoers Breathe Easier
<snip>
Some people live and breathe their religion. Turns out going to church might actually help them breathe easier.
Link

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passthrough wrote:Intolerance may cease to exist, but when I see someone going down a road that leads the wrong way, I will never stop speaking to them of other options...just not in the way that my rant went on in the above example.

passthrough wrote:My daughter has outgrown her friend's type of mother and I have outgrown being a mother.

See the incongruency here. You are still a mother, but you are a mother like I am a mother, although I have never had children like you have.

I should add more, but I'm tired and not feeling well.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
See the incongruency here. You are still a mother, but you are a mother like I am a mother, although I have never had children like you have.

I should add more, but I'm tired and not feeling well.

Well, I suppose it is all how "mother" is defined. My definition of mother was one who had control over the life of her child. Giving the child control in bits and pieces is a very hard thing to do. I have no idea the half of what she went through during those 3 years, she is only beginning to tell me now.

I have relinquished complete control of her because it is now time for her to take control of herself and her choices. She doesn't always like this new attitude of mine because it forces her to work harder. Maybe that, too, is being a mother, but then that would mean that Kevin, Dan, David, Scott, Carl, Tharan and all the others would be mothers too. What do you think guys? ;-)

I hope you get feeling better. Add more when you like, I'll be around.

passthrough wrote:Maybe that, too, is being a mother, but then that would mean that Kevin, Dan, David, Scott, Carl, Tharan and all the others would be mothers too. What do you think guys? ;-)

Yes, I do believe it would.
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