GENIUS FORUMS

Cory Duchesne wrote: But I don't understand why you brought this up. We're just talking about the competition in the brain. Rational values and sophisticated recognition of consequences in competition with primitive desires is basically all I'm talking about.

Hmm yeah, what was it again....

Here it is, your: "using the abstract mind, thinking rational thoughts to combat negative emotions about my life situation".

What I was suggesting is that it's the overarching rational process to pit a thought against another one which might show itself as emotion, that is more fluent, less defined and contra-dictionary. But for doing that we might have to bring the emotion more into awareness where it will crystallize as thought. Or the opposition will have to become more like a feeling, perhaps courage, determination or some passion to be able to combat something so deeply emotional.

So just a "rational" thought vs negative emotion would be like cutting of heads from some many-headed mythical beast which keeps growing them back. Our reason, its whole power, lies behind both, as if it's the story teller, a clever manipulator of events with not always weapons that are rational in themselves. It seemed important to mention.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote: Hmm yeah, what was it again....

Here it is, your: "using the abstract mind, thinking rational thoughts to combat negative emotions about my life situation".

What I was suggesting is that it's the overarching rational process to pit a thought against another one which might show itself as emotion, that is more fluent, less defined and contra-dictionary.

hmmm......so you're saying that the "pitting of a thought against an emotion" doesn't actually happen, and instead, what's really happening is that it's always "negative emotional thought vs. positive emotional thought", as opposed to merely emotion vs. thought.

And perhaps you're saying that the reason one thought wins against another thought, is because the superior thought stole the energy of the emotional brain, the feeling/emotions that the lesser thought was riding on withdrew and became reinvested into a new set of thoughts.

??

you are a cryptic dude! But I enjoy the challenge of trying to decipher you, and I look forward to some feedback on my interpretations.

But for doing that we might have to bring the emotion more into awareness where it will crystallize as thought.

When the negative emotion crystallizes into thought, does the emotion disappear, or does the emotion become transformed into the opposite? (squeamish fear becomes passionate courage)

Or the opposition will have to become more like a feeling, perhaps courage, determination or some passion to be able to combat something so deeply emotional.

I can definitely relate to this. A powerful negative emotion, may require a powerful surge of courage and passion. Are you saying that in order to combat what we hate/fear, we just have to love certain opposing thoughts? Kind of like a soldier might go into a battle field with fear of the concept of the enemy, but he overcomes this fear with a great love for his countries ideals. So the emotional brain is like a limited resource, and certain thoughts can draw power from the emotional brain. They could cripple you, but with some struggle you can detach negative thoughts from the emotional brain, and put new positive thoughts in their place. Or, to put it slightly differently, the positive thoughts just displace the negative ones.

An analogy might be a radio tuned to a wrong channel, causing just noise and static. With the right adjustments, you can tune into music (order), rather than chaos. In both situations, the radio is drawing energy, but the tuning is different.

So just a "rational" thought vs negative emotion would be like cutting of heads from some many-headed mythical beast which keeps growing them back. Our reason, its whole power, lies behind both, as if it's the story teller, a clever manipulator of events with not always weapons that are rational in themselves.

So are you just saying that passion/courage is the result of using thought to transform negative emotions into passion/courage?

Cory Duchesne wrote: you are a cryptic dude! But I enjoy the challenge of trying to decipher you, and I look forward to some feedback on my interpretations.

Okay, so far I agreed with much of your interpretations. In some cases perhaps I left it for what it was and instead focused on other parts. It's not like I set out to be cryptic but to write the full scope would require very long posts as there's quite some thought behind it, you know the amount of conceptual thought that develops over decades of full-time living versus full-time pondering. So instead I zip it to a bare minimum and see which elements can be exposed if someone starts picking at it. Works fine on a discussion forum and helps those with shorter attention spans too!

When the negative emotion crystallizes into thought, does the emotion disappear, or does the emotion become transformed into the opposite? (squeamish fear becomes passionate courage)

It can now be studied more rationally and understood but that's only part of the preparations of dealing with it on a 'murkier' level. The understanding will indeed reveal its opposite and one can conceive of ways to "trick" it, to dare it in the open. Like great fears will have a strong desire or wish attached. This will be the path in, for example finding a way to let the desire "think" its fulfilled, yes even by a sham, or introduce a competing desire that overshadows it, drains its power, as you already suggested.

Or, to put it slightly differently, the positive thoughts just displace the negative ones.

The brain is flexible enough but the 'voltage' has to go higher for change to happen. Positive strong emotions can facilitate this for a certain period of time but direction is still needed. Like in a cult the mind is programmed in similar ways but with irrational twists. Often they use negative emotions too, as control measure.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote: The understanding will indeed reveal its opposite and one can conceive of ways to "trick" it, to dare it in the open. Like great fears will have a strong desire or wish attached. This will be the path in, for example finding a way to let the desire "think" its fulfilled, yes even by a sham, or introduce a competing desire that overshadows it, drains its power, as you already suggested.

Ah yes, that's an excellent way to put it. I think I know exactly what you mean. Any negative emotion is in part a desire for a certain fulfillment. So the task at hand is to make the desire feel fulfilled by tricking it. A lot of times when people don't feel fulfilled economically in society, they find it helpful to focus on how others have it worse. By changing the perspective, and focusing on the destitution of others, suddenly they feel fulfilled, or at least feel a bit better.

Also, a lot of times people are afraid of going after a dream, and so they pretty much have to convince themselves that it's already happened in the future already. Like destiny. I am going to set out and achieve this because it's destiny, it's already happened. Their fear of not succeeding is reduced, because the brain almost feels like it has already happened.

Or, to put it slightly differently, the positive thoughts just displace the negative ones.

The brain is flexible enough but the 'voltage' has to go higher for change to happen. Positive strong emotions can facilitate this

hold on, isn't the positive emotion the voltage itself? What do you mean by voltage?

Like in a cult the mind is programmed in similar ways but with irrational twists. Often they use negative emotions too, as control measure.

I find the negative emotions are a way of keeping the energy of the brain low. A depressed, sad state of mind doesn't have the energy to think positively. I think that's why depressed people often can't see anything but defeat and failure, because the energy required in order to envision some degree of success, isn't available to the depressed mind.

Success requires a lot more information processing and skill, and this requires a neutral or high mood.

Cory Duchesne wrote: Their fear of not succeeding is reduced, because the brain almost feels like it has already happened.

Yes, simply the power of faith: believing in things that are not visible or experienced at all. Hope, love, insanity.

Works like a charm if able to surrender.

The brain is flexible enough but the 'voltage' has to go higher for change to happen. Positive strong emotions can facilitate this

hold on, isn't the positive emotion the voltage itself?

That's indeed what I meant. And very visible with the youth, all so wired to learn and change, one can easily see the raw energy charge expressed at that stage as "fun", "silliness", "daring", "loud". Full of hopes, overblown self-esteem, desire for the minute. Perhaps that's the charge or the sparks flying from it but it's also at the same time a sign of "weak" mind, in the sense of impressible, easy to steer, change or imprint. And as such spoiled, warped, misdirected and defeated by any power that is in charge around them.

Lucky the children who were the slower learner or burner, in this context.

I find the negative emotions are a way of keeping the energy of the brain low. A depressed, sad state of mind doesn't have the energy to think positively.

One could say these emotions are "heavier" or more "powerful" in some way, and they need ever more energy to keep the pattern intact. In cults one could be controlled by fear but to prevent dysfunction of the group by depletion over time this is then often resolved by organizing directed anger or hostility to the "outside" or specific targets. An interesting cycle which keeps itself intact, not only in cults by the way but it's always easier to learn by studying the extremes first.

Diebert,

hold on, isn't the positive emotion the voltage itself?

That's indeed what I meant. And very visible with the youth, all so wired to learn and change, one can easily see the raw energy charge expressed at that stage as "fun", "silliness", "daring", "loud". Full of hopes, overblown self-esteem, desire for the minute. Perhaps that's the charge or the sparks flying from it but it's also at the same time a sign of "weak" mind, in the sense of impressible, easy to steer, change or imprint. And as such spoiled, warped, misdirected and defeated by any power that is in charge around them.

Lucky the children who were the slower learner or burner, in this context.

Well, they might be lucky, depending on their capacity. Their slower learning I think is sometimes indicative of a broader ability to think. They aren't so quick to limit themselves to a framework, but instead they let their mind wander broadly outside the boundaries most children limit themselves to. Their brain may not generate "Hope & love" quite as easily due to such emotions requiring hasty and caricatured conclusions, so in this context, they would be slow burners.

Is this what you had in mind when you mentioned the slower learner or burner?

I find the negative emotions are a way of keeping the energy of the brain low. A depressed, sad state of mind doesn't have the energy to think positively.

One could say these emotions are "heavier" or more "powerful" in some way, and they need ever more energy to keep the pattern intact.

So are you implying that depression/sadness is indicative of a freedom to reflect, there is more info processed in contrast to the angry frightened man? Anger and fear do seem to attach themselves to more caricatured reflections of life...

In cults one could be controlled by fear but to prevent dysfunction of the group by depletion over time this is then often resolved by organizing directed anger or hostility to the "outside" or specific targets. An interesting cycle which keeps itself intact, not only in cults by the way but it's always easier to learn by studying the extremes first.

It sounds like you're saying that because cults intentionally limit freedom to think broadly and accurately, sadness and depression aren't usually as much of an issue, because these emotions come from relatively "bigger" thinking. Whereas anger, hostility and fear arise out of more caricatured and smaller perceptions.

Cory Duchesne wrote:So are you implying that depression/sadness is indicative of a freedom to reflect, there is more info processed in contrast to the angry frightened man?

Any freedom to reflect truthfully is akin to what I'd describe as "lightness". In this light the sheer heaviness of those around us, and the crushing truth of existence itself in its "full glory" even when glimpsed momentary can easily become like a feeling of pressure, of weight. Not to mention the immense "obscenity" of the minutes, the course detail of life when taken in more fully. The sadness then is more a feeling of losing, of having to give up the so loved caricatures you mentioned. Like mourning over the dead: which is actually another example of a state of a mind in transition, to recalibrate its workings when there were many ties to the deceased that now first have to be reevaluated.

But lets not suggest depression is the way up. It's a symptom of various possible causes, a form of coping or handling when one lacks the capacity to handle, for whatever reason; to prevent perhaps even worse states.

Anger and fear do seem to attach themselves to more caricatured reflections of life...

It's always the caricature or some form of clever illusion that invokes the desire or repulsion. I'd say it's part of the mechanism, the whole biology of it. But it's not like we can work without the circus imagery altogether. Things exist to us basically as caricature, some severe distortion of the actuality. Like gravity is said to be created by a dent in space-time we'd roll towards.

Whereas anger, hostility and fear arise out of more caricatured and smaller perceptions.

Fear and anger have an interesting relationship here: fear contracts and depletes more and more energy, building up something "heavy" or "knotted". Anger or directed hostility can be like the venting system: one has to redirect this energy again, to keep the whole shebang operational. But the concentration of power makes it near impossible to control and could lead to very destructive expressions.

Beware of the ones who never grow angry, unless they are fearless.

Beware of those who fear nothing, because they still haven't realized much yet: unless they are without illusions.