GENIUS FORUMS

Buddhist Romanticism also helps close the gate to areas of the Dharma that would challenge people in their hope for an ultimate happiness based on interconnectedness. Traditional Dharma calls for renunciation and sacrifice, on the grounds that all interconnectedness is essentially unstable, and any happiness based on this instability is an invitation to suffering. True happiness has to go beyond interdependence and interconnectedness to the unconditioned. In response, the Romantic argument brands these teachings as dualistic: either inessential to the religious experience or inadequate expressions of it. Thus, it concludes, they can safely be ignored. In this way, the gate closes off radical areas of the Dharma designed to address levels of suffering remaining even when a sense of wholeness has been mastered.

The above is a snippet from the following article:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... icism.html

This insight into veiling the radical aspects of the Dharma (which can be applied also to the radical aspects of the teachings of Jesus) by the feeling teachings of Spiritual Romanticism brought forth, for me, the question of compassion.

From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el017.html “Only a Buddha «whose heart is cooled by compassion» can have the courage to venture so far in the search for truth and discover thereby the true state of peace.” An eye-opener for a recovering spiritual-romantic such as myself who, until she reasoned the truth of compassion as a "cooling agent" rather than as a "warming agent" remained clinging to the delusion that the end of suffering could be attained without having to sacrifice the feeling concept of ONE.

Dammit, truth is brutal. No wonder the preferred questing state of man is that of seeking not for the meat of truth, but, rather for the milk of happiness.

movingalways wrote:Dammit, truth is brutal. No wonder the preferred questing state of man is that of seeking not for the meat of truth, but, rather for the milk of happiness.

"Jesus" is just some made-up fairy tales which weak-minded folk spout and like to think themself knowledgable. Same for Buddha and all those other deadbeats who never existed. George Washington never existed but the propaganda is on the dollar bill so that makes it true. Bah. Sleep your life away.

Tomas: Hard Work and The Joy of Life.

Note the capitals for romantic emphasis.

"He pissed on a lonely road off the back of a pick up"

Jack kerouac

Buddhist Romanticism also helps close the gate to areas of the Dharma that would challenge people in their hope for an ultimate happiness based on interconnectedness. Traditional Dharma calls for renunciation and sacrifice, on the grounds that all interconnectedness is essentially unstable, and any happiness based on this instability is an invitation to suffering. True happiness has to go beyond interdependence and interconnectedness to the unconditioned. In response, the Romantic argument brands these teachings as dualistic: either inessential to the religious experience or inadequate expressions of it. Thus, it concludes, they can safely be ignored. In this way, the gate closes off radical areas of the Dharma designed to address levels of suffering remaining even when a sense of wholeness has been mastered.

Speaking entirely for myself, and having not visited the websites you posted, I make this observation concerning:

"Buddhist Romanticism also helps close the gate to areas of the Dharma that would challenge people in their hope for an ultimate happiness based on interconnectedness."

What I found interesting was the fact that the entire mechanism of thinking is interconnected and exist because of such. The connection has nothing to do with thought conclusion base upon observation which challenges closing gates on any

hope for an ultimate happiness,

being ultimate happiness is a delusion when a mind cannot deduct a beginning nor end to infinity, but the fact that three elements of thought are inseparable and are always interconnected irregardless, which are faith, hope and love.

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

What I found interesting was the fact that the entire mechanism of thinking is interconnected and exist because of such.

being ultimate happiness is a delusion when a mind cannot deduct a beginning nor end to infinity, but the fact that three elements of thought are inseparable and are always interconnected irregardless, which are faith, hope and love.

If the goal is to realize one's unconditioned nature, then to cling to the things of the conditioned mind such as you name above will surely thwart the goal.

"For the word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart [of righteousness]."

to exist means 'to stand outside of'.
hope, faith, love, salvation, redemption etc are of an existential nature,
standing outside of pure Being as an experiential immanence or manifestation.

to stand in those phenomena is just that, a stand,
a possibuility for Being as form.

conditional,
as hope is for something,
faith is in something
love is of something

it seems odd to stand in nothing but there it is.
emptiness is particularly unattractive to ego which stands out from Being as an unquenchable lust for power.
ego looks lost and terrified and grabs for fixes.

If the goal is to realize one's unconditioned nature, then to cling to the things of the conditioned mind such as you name above will surely thwart the goal.

Faith, hope and love has not been present to you as things, but

three elements of thought

Thoughts are unconditional until man identifies them with words. The elements of thought too, are unconditional until man attempts to place a condition upon them just by naming them things. What are the things of faith, hope and love that makes them conditional for clinging to?

Where is the Word of God to be found herein that It divided faith, hope and love? Or provides a platform to stand upon as concrete, and not metaphorically?

To exist means there is a source which expresses Itself Being. To express Self [self] or faith, hope and love as Being, these elements of expressions emanate Cause within, and Cause can never reside outside of Cause for Cause is The Source of all that It is, and is expressing Its Being. What is there that is not Being?

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

What is there that is not Being?

That's rhetorical and useless.
Wisdom is drawing distinctions.
Pam is distinguishing conditioned and unconditioned.
faith, hope and love are conditional.
sidetrack.
so, anyway,
experiential data like faith, hope, love, salvation, redemption, or conditions,
can be viewed as 'standing out from being' as possibilities or immanence.
they are projected onto objects and found to come and go or depend for their existence.

What is there that is not Being? That's rhetorical and useless.

If that was true, you would not have bother to address it.

Wisdom is drawing distinctions

What distinctions? Wisdom does not differentiate Being.

I find no conditions in life. Conditions come from man's interpretations of relativism. What are the conditions of exactness, of faith, hope and love one reaches for, if conditions apply when one comes to their goal of unconditioned nature, and the standards are the same there, as they were there?

Should dualism be up for elimination, conditions and unconditional must become centered and be One with What is there that is not Being? .

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

If that was true, you would not have bother to address it.

Sophistry sux.

What distinctions? Wisdom does not differentiate Being.

Wisdom distinguishes modes of Being.

What are the conditions of exactness, of faith, hope and love one reaches for

An experiential sense of lostness, suffering, not knowing sets the quest up.

Should dualism be up for elimination

not eliminated, understood.

in the situational flux there is to be found a primordial essence for grokking.

reading text isn't the generative style that triggers the grok.
the reader is too remote and distracted coming to it.
the oral tradition works better because of the immediacy, presence and immersion in the situation,
the distraction is absent.

Sophistry sux.

If this is true also, we are in the same boat. I not addressing myself.

Wisdom distinguishes modes of Being.

Now this is sophistry sux, for there are no mode of being, there are only spirits of intent which will not allow one to bypass the Principle "everything after its kind." If this is not true, present a mode of Being which is not activated and powered by "the law of the Spirit of life. Are you going to avoid answering this question also by your usual "That's rhetorical and useless" Sophistry sux quip?

An experiential sense of lostness, suffering, not knowing sets the quest up.

Demonstrate to me where this experiential sense of lost can be found in "Let there be light"? Can one be lost in the guiding light? Or does on begin their experiential journey when they step out of the light of their Spirit?

not eliminated, understood

Tell me how do you understand your conditioned and unconditioned self when they are eternally at war between themselves within you, and dominate your reasoning moment by moment by moment of the moment of your living?


Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

jufa: Where is the Word of God to be found herein that It divided faith, hope and love? Or provides a platform to stand upon as concrete, and not metaphorically?

I am not speaking of the Word of God as a platform, concrete or metaphorical. I am not speaking of the Word of God at all, rather, I am speaking of unconditioned and conditioned. Faith, hope and love are conditions. Why? Because they are objects of desire, of reaching, of projecting a story, of providing an explanation. Take away the story, no faith, no hope, no love.

I am speaking of the end of the story. No causes, no effects, no whys, no reasons, no explanations, no flow, no spark - unconditioned, unconditional being.

movingalways wrote:

jufa: Where is the Word of God to be found herein that It divided faith, hope and love? Or provides a platform to stand upon as concrete, and not metaphorically?

I am not speaking of the Word of God as a platform, concrete or metaphorical. I am not speaking of the Word of God at all, rather, I am speaking of unconditioned and conditioned. Faith, hope and love are conditions. Why? Because they are objects of desire, of reaching, of projecting a story, of providing an explanation. Take away the story, no faith, no hope, no love.

I am speaking of the end of the story. No causes, no effects, no whys, no reasons, no explanations, no flow, no spark - unconditioned, unconditional being.

Then your conversation belong with Dennis. As Dennis freehandedly overlooked this question:

"What are the things of faith, hope and love that makes them conditional for clinging to?"

you also ignore it by generalizing all individuals see faith, hope and love as objects of sentient feelings, which avoid the question what makes things conditional? What is there for one to desire when all one has to do is speak THE WORD and "calleth those things which were not, as though they were" into manifestation? To strive for unconditions, there cannot be man made interpretationed conditions applied.

Take away your story and you stand naked, stripped of your 'Id/Ego' in the light of that which cannot be named nor objectified except in The Word "Let there be light."

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

movingalways wrote:I am speaking of the end of the story. No causes, no effects, no whys, no reasons, no explanations, no flow, no spark - unconditioned, unconditional being.

Aw, come on. There is no beginning, no middle ground, and no ending. Where's the jump off point? There isn't any because of the teeter-totter effect.

All will be revealed when I'm gasping (processing) my last (final) breath (mixture) on terra firma.

Cremation (of my universe) -- what a beautiful choice!

Then your conversation belong with Dennis. As Dennis freehandedly overlooked this question: "What are the things of faith, hope and love that makes them conditional for clinging to?"

I did not ignore the question. My answer was:

Faith, hope and love are conditions. Why? Because they are objects of desire, of reaching, of projecting a story, of providing an explanation.

you also ignore it by generalizing all individuals see faith, hope and love as objects of sentient feelings,

Faith, hope and love are objects of sentient feelings. There is no image projected, this is true, but this does not change the fact that feelings are produced, and where there are feelings, there are conditions to be dissolved.

which avoid the question what makes things conditional?

Again, I did not avoid the question.

What is there for one to desire when all one has to do is speak THE WORD and "calleth those things which were not, as though they were" into manifestation?

Feelings of faith, of hope and of love does not manifest the unconditional unconditionally. I expand upon this in my next answer.

To strive for unconditions, there cannot be man made interpretationed conditions applied.

As you know, one must go through the mind to go beyond the mind into rest, so one does desire or strive for this object or goal of rest, which causes conditions to arise because of the desiring/striving, conditions such as faith hope and love.

Take away your story and you stand naked, stripped of your 'Id/Ego' in the light of that which cannot be named nor objectified except in The Word "Let there be light."

Precisely.

Aw, come on. There is no beginning, no middle ground, and no ending. Where's the jump off point? There isn't any because of the teeter-totter effect.

You are missing the point. It is the letting go of all those ideas that allows one to act according to "Thy will be done."

jufa, my vision that encompasses "Thy will be done" is to rest in the breath, which is the purest activity of sentient awareness. The intent of doing so is to end the suffering that is the continuance of the [his]story of why and how things came to be things, including the breath. Once a thought gets into the mind about why and how the things one is awareness of "came to be", which is never their reality, and this thought is accepted as one's truth, this unreal story then becomes the very cloud of illusion that perhaps, in its original intent, was purposed to break through other illusions, deeper illusions than this one of the story of God. Using the metaphor God for a moment to make my point, God is the source of the ability to tell a story of God, but God Itself does not tell Itself a story of God. If one's goal is conscious union with the God who is not a storyteller of conditions, is not the clinging to this story of how conditions came to be not the very thing preventing access to this unconditioned God?

Pam,

jufa, my vision that encompasses "Thy will be done" is to rest in the breath, which is the purest activity of sentient awareness

that's a fine and incredibly beneficial practice to restore the psychosomatic machine to natural state.
being in the awareness of the rising and falling of the breath as the centre.
the 3 centres are the breathing,
the affective, feelings,
the mental, thoughts.

it's noticed how consciousness 'rides' on the breath as it takes its flights of fancy.

with practice, the mental and mood dissolves and mind softens,
being here with the lightness of gossamer.

Non-action,
access to one's absolute nature.

Thanks, Dennis, the breath does indeed reveal the never ending story of the condition of the breath. No wonder when we hold our breath we can only do it for a few seconds!

I realize that no breathing, conditioned man or woman can live without a story. However, what I have also realized is that a breathing, conditioned man or woman can live of the integrity of the story. It is to this integrity of acknowledging the condition of the breath bubble that my new story unfolds: be still, be at peace oh wandering, desiring, breath, the time has come to rest in your knowledge of the story.

movingalways wrote:

Aw, come on. There is no beginning, no middle ground, and no ending. Where's the jump off point? There isn't any because of the teeter-totter effect.

You are missing the point. It is the letting go of all those ideas that allows one to act according to "Thy will be done."

According to "thy will be done"? Did Jufa commit you to a psychiatric facility at some time in your past?

Have you spent time (much less visited) in a psychiatric ward? Those poor (in spirit) folk have nothing to look forward to. Just another crappy day on planet Earth of their own making. They bow down (whether) voluntarily or not, according to what Dr. Psych tells them their malady is...

Thy will be done my ass.

be still, be at peace oh wandering, desiring, breath, the time has come to rest in your knowledge of the story.

that's the Nagajuna conclusion pretty much.
story is form,
absolute is formless.
story (finger) can point to Absolute (moon).
story is relative and has no absolute existence.

watching the breath rising and falling at the point of the nostrils for an hour day rests the thinking and feeling functions.