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Kelly Jones
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Post by Kelly Jones »

MKFaizi wrote:I am glad that I am no longer a Muslim and that I no longer live among Pakistani-Americans or Pakistani-Australians or anything else. I would be fearful.
Why's that?

On another note, do you still keep in touch with anyone from the Muslim community you used to live in? Was it fairly normal, or was it more influential among the whole of the Muslim nations?
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Post by Kevin Solway »

MKFaizi wrote:Has anyone here besides myself lived as a Muslim; lived within a community of Muslims?
I would expect the middle-class Muslims of New York to overlook many of the Islamic teachings as much as they are able.

Things are different in the "free" Islamic schools of middle-east, where they teach children the importance of killing unbelievers as per the Koran.
I have no doubt that these things are in the Koran in some translations. A lot does depend upon the translation.
I think that no matter how those teachings are translated, it won't change the gist of them too much.

Mohammed himself was involved with much killing during his lifetime, so I have no doubt he intended the teachings to be interpreted quite literally.
there was talk about people of the book -- meaning Jews, Christians and Muslims.


Not Buddhists and Hindus then?
A few years back, I spent considerable time writing a study of Islamic beliefs that are not violent. That was all lost back on the EZ board forum. I am not willing to do that again.


I have a backup of some of the old forum. If you can remember some of the text I can search for it and may be able to find it.
Ultimately, I think any effort to reveal Muslims as anything other than blood thirsty war mongers will never be received here. The collective mind is made up and firm on that. Too bad.


In peaceful times Muslims will focus on the peaceful aspects of their religion. But in the middle-east, things are not peaceful, and so they focus on the fighting aspects.
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Post by Kelly Jones »

ksolway wrote:I think that no matter how those teachings are translated, it won't change the gist of them too much.
Christians were extremely violent when there was a "standard" translation and a "clear" insider-outsider distinction created by having only one denomination: Christian. When the idea of "love for thy neighbour" overruled the "God of angry judgment", then many translations and many denominations developed, until the only commonality for the contemporary Christian is the idea of love and family. Now Christianity only attracts very feminine persons, those who are breeders and family-oriented. In historical terms, this movement towards love and selfishness occurred when the violent and angry Father got overruled by his son's passionate love of science.

This contrast of science and family would show up the mother's murderous parasitism, far better than contrasting glorious self-sacrifice with selfishness. So, sorry for generalities, but it seems a good idea to me to promote parts of the Koran that focusses on individuality, the intellect, appreciating nature, and care for one's brother - plus any interpreters that lean towards those values. Then, since the "unbelievers" then "believe" part of the Koran, they can't really be called unbelievers anymore.

It's like the time 6000 German women protested at their Jewish husbands taken into concentration camps, even into Auschwitz. Goebbels released the men, because of fearing dissent. The "clear-cut" boundary of what makes a Believer becomes blurred.
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Post by Jamesh »

Dan wrote: Anti-modern in what sense? This kind of statement just beggars belief. Frankly, I don't even quite know what it refers to. Of course in some matters Muslims countries have not taken on certain western liberal attitudes, but that is only one aspect of things and doesn't constitute a refusal to be modern in a general sense.

Yes, I mostly meant in the later sense. Muslims will not allow individual freedom or democracy – this is not the modern or more evolved manner in which Western societies work.

Btw…This kind of statement just beggars belief.

Get fucked :)

If many American Xians had their way in the US, how modern would that place seem all of a sudden?

Sure, but there is a difference Dan. The fundie Christians are kept at bay by the non-fundie Christians. This is not the case at all for Muslims.

Did you look at the pictorial blog of Iran I posted? Have you seen what any of the Emirate states look like nowadays? Have you seen pics of Dubai lately?

Things are changing and quite frankly things could change a lot quicker if so much money was not wasted by Shieks and Shahs. Dubai, Jordan and Egypt show that the people can change, if they personally treat their religious leaders more sceptically. A lot of the modernisation is for the comfort of the sheiks and their families – they want modern infrastructure. Dubai is particularly actively capitalist country – but it is a strange place with access to a lot of cheap labour from non-citizens.

And if you can't see the trend towards a loss of western liberalism happening in the west itself you are just not looking. The Muslims are not the only ones getting all "fundie" and werid.

This is one of the key points, Dan, and I believe it is occurring to a significant degree because of the aggression of Muslim nations. A more significant reason is that some people just cannot cope without being lead, they cannot cope with thinking for themselves. They are aware that their desires are a danger and look to outside influences to control these desires – letting go would mean a decent into badness. The modern world of immense freedom and lack of experiences that create discipline (relative to the past) provides far more opportunities for a far greater percentage of the population to develop bad habits. Advertising ramps up desires until they become irrepressible.

Some people, most people actually, need to be sheep to be happy, they find happiness in meeting goodness’s asked for by others – it gives them goals and rewards. Within religion they can better meet their strong and very satisfying herd emotions - within each religious group the sense of community, the sense of working towards a goal, is at its strongest the more fundamental they are.

The aggressiveness of Muslims is like a catalyst to these Christians – it is something they can clearly define as “bad”, it is not vague like personal doubts about their religious or political leaders, it is something they can focus on.

As we have been tolerant in the past towards Muslims, we give them all the rights of other citizens, but we still dislike them, we discriminate against them often in fairly subtle ways (looking away for example) which is enough to make the Muslims feel we are discriminating against them. They feel the hurt that outcasts feel and they turn inwards towards their religious teachings, towards their traditions, which creates a stronger vacuum between them and us. This vicious circle in the end makes the desire of others to treat them even more warily, we start getting angry ourselves.

On the Western side you have all the kind hearted dogooders who preach, promote and enact tolerance and non-judgemental equality. These people as a group tend to have a lot of political power, and are supported in principal by the bulk of the less fundamental religious folk. As a result of their actions the Muslims are not forced to adapt their habits and traditions to be more suited those of the country they have migrated to and we end up with preachers, hurt by natural discriminate, who promote fundamentalism. All these inane fundamentalist views, (for example…trying to get Sharia laws introduced, separate bathing facilities for females, promotion of wearing clothes that cover bodies etc) build up in the Christians minds, and in naturally intolerant minds like mine, and eventually the pile of negative views in our minds overflows and spills into retaliatory behaviour.

The great danger to the world in my opinion is if we let, via tolerance, the traditions beliefs and actions of Muslims intrude further and further into our way of life, and if we let things like protective security issues intrude and make harder things that used to be taken for granted, such as feeling safe in flying – then the crazy fundamentalist Christian groups will start pushing for very nasty aggressive military actions against Muslims, more and more of them will start seeking Armageddon through fear the Muslims (who are breeding quicker) will somehow get control. The fact that Bush got elected for a second term is a sign of this fear and a sign that the Christians ALREADY want to say No to the blatant Muslim imperialism.

Unless people in politics who are not fanatical start saying no to Muslim immigrants and special rights, and we don’t force those already here to adapt, or if we let iran get nukes, then control will be taken out of the more rational hands and the fundies will gain full control. If they gain control then expect WW3 AND a complete loss of freedom for individual thinkers such as us – it would be almost the equivalent of the Muslims gaining control over us. They would have the political momentum, just as the do-gooders clearly have had the political momentum since the sixties.

I say promote intolerance now, so that these fundies don’t have sufficient reason to take action themselves.


As I've said before, remember what Iraq was like before we arrived? Remember what Afghanistan was like before the Russians and then we screwed it up and allowed the necessary vacuum filler of fundamentalism to take hold? Muslims are not to blame for any of that. We have to recognise our role, and not just that or Islam itself, in the rise of the kind of rabidly hostile Islamic fundamentalism that we're all now fearing. If we don't recognise that we are doing ourselves a disservice. That's what I'm mostly concerned about - how our own bullshit will come back to bite us.

I need to consider this more – I do think though that you are being a bit idealistic if you are referring to Afghanistan and Iraqs 20th century past, and it is pointless going back further.
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Post by MKFaizi »

Certainly, there is some erroneous propaganda to this video but there is also a lot of truth. I would rather have Stalin and the Berlin Wall than this future. At least, then, there was a clear enemy. In the Abu Ghraib sequences, I would have got a grenade launcher and mowed down the unclear enemy. I would have mowed down my own son or daughter for such disgust.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOuPUfbfFmk

I have always loved this song written by a little American Jew who later became Buddhist. I wonder why.

When they say, "Repent," I wonder what they meant.


Faizi
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Post by MKFaizi »

Just a friendly occupying army. They hate us for our freedom. The US army has been in Iraq so long that there is a Burger King and Pizza Hut in the Green Zone. For the privileged few.

Why do they hate us so? We are only trying to introduce them to democracy.

I do think we should give Iraq back to Saddam.

My daughter will be going to Iraq soon. She is her mother's daughter and I have no doubt that she will act accordingly. She has no stomach for hate and ignorance no matter where it comes from.

Faizi
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Post by Jamesh »

She is her mother's daughter and I have no doubt that she will act accordingly. She has no stomach for hate and ignorance no matter where it comes from.

If she is her mothers daughter then she is one fat momma for hate and ignorance.

What was that group you were in in the old days, was it the Velvet Underground. What a mob of idiots they were.
MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi »

Kevin Solway wrote:
I have a backup of some of the old forum. If you can remember some of the text I can search for it and may be able to find it.
I have no such memory. I doubt that you could recover it because it was not considered to be important.

Ultimately, I think any effort to reveal Muslims as anything other than blood thirsty war mongers will never be received here. The collective mind is made up and firm on that. Too bad.

Kevin:
In peaceful times Muslims will focus on the peaceful aspects of their religion. But in the middle-east, things are not peaceful, and so they focus on the fighting aspects.
Things have not been peaceful in the Middle East for a long time, especially since the establishment of the Israeli state in 1948. It is a truth that Muslims are not the only cause of violence in the Middle East. For the life of me, I cannot understand why exactly that is such a hard truth for you to grasp. Jews and Christians are violent and commit atrocities but you only blame Muslims.

Exactly how are Christians and Jews focusing on the peaceful aspects of their religion?

Your ignorance is willful.

To answer another one of your questions, Islam does not recognize Hinduism or Buddhism as a true religion. Both are seen as worshipping of small gods or idols. In Islam, there is one God -- the God of the universe. The Christians worship Jesus as God. The Jews believe that there is a Messiah coming. Islam has no belief in a Messiah of any kind. There is one God. Just One. Nothing else. No savior -- now or in the future. Modern Buddhist thought has nothing to do with idolatry but there are many places in the world where idols are worshipped.

Yet, despite such differences, there are no ideological or territorial wars on the scale of the war for territory in Israel. Ultimately, religion is not the issue. The issue is land and justice.

Faizi
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Post by sschaula »

I would rather have Stalin and the Berlin Wall than this future. At least, then, there was a clear enemy. In the Abu Ghraib sequences, I would have got a grenade launcher and mowed down the unclear enemy. I would have mowed down my own son or daughter for such disgust.
Agreed. I wonder what was going through the minds of those soldiers.
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Post by Jamesh »

Ultimately, religion is not the issue. The issue is land and justice.

Land and justice in reality has very little to do with it, except as the conceptual point of the lowest common "emotional justification" denominator that is used to focus emotions of greed and hate. Land and justice should really be an individuals issue, not one of the descendants of those affected or the religious group of those not affected.

Bitch woman - tell me how many people who were moved from their lands without any compensation or personal decision to do so, are still alive. It would be less than a few thousand.

Religion is the issue because religion is used by politicians to make people act in certain ways, and the Muslim religion does not allow questioning, so people are unneccessarlily lead to hatred and to their deaths. It is the group dynamics that counts, and religion is merely a group of people who have certian learnt emotional commonality. if the middle eastern terrorists were just indiviudals who were reacting to their personal loss of land there would be no fucking issue.

Of course, it is completely meaningless to respond to you.
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Post by Kevin Solway »

MKFaizi wrote:It is a truth that Muslims are not the only cause of violence in the Middle East. For the life of me, I cannot understand why exactly that is such a hard truth for you to grasp.
I have never said that Muslims are the only cause of violence in the Middle East, so I don't know what you're on about.
Exactly how are Christians and Jews focusing on the peaceful aspects of their religion?
I never said they were.
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Post by Kevin Solway »

One thing I find very revealing about the Islamic teachings on killing unbelievers, is that if a person truly has spiritual wisdom they certainly don't need to be told when it is permissible to kill others. People who have spiritual wisdom can work it out for themselves without any trouble whatsoever.

The only time you might tell another person when it is permissible to kill, is when that person lacks spiritual wisdom . . . ie, they are an unbeliever.

That is, they do not believe in Truth, because they do not know it. A person with spiritual wisdom knows Truth, and hence is a believer in Truth.
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Post by Nick »

To comment on the entire religious aspect of this conflict; is it any wonder that the most violent and opressive times in the history of civilization occur when religious fundamentalism is at the helm? It seems as if mankind is a broken record that keeps repeating history over and over again. Like a pendelum that swings between religious fundamentalism and enlightenment. Looks like the pendelum is heading back towards fundamentalism again. Only this time the world is industrialized and equiped with nuclear bombs. This could be the the last time the pendelum ever swings again for mankind.

This state of affairs could also be looked at as the pendelum swinging between femininity and masculinity. Femininity brings out the worste side of humanity which catches up to them, but masculinity doesn't seem to bring enough happiness when people are still attached to worldly entities. I think it was David Quinn who once said something like, "humanity has only scratched the surface of masculinity. Now they are moving towards femininity again because their egos don't feel comfortable in a more masculine environment."

By the way Kevin, thanks for those quotes from the Koran. No shock to read these things when your hear about Mohammed murdering people who don't agree with him, and also with having sex with girls as young as nine years old. Like the saying goes; Where there's smoke, there's fire.
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Post by Dan Rowden »

Hmmm, why do I have the feeling I have completely wasted my time in this thread? Should I even bother relating what the local cafe owner, who happens to be a lefty atheistic Israeli, who worked for the IDF, and who left a Zionist-minded family behind, told me about Israeli society?

Nah. One person. Who cares.
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Post by Beingof1 »

Enlightenment, and that only Enlightenment can abolish War.

The dreary old trick of comparing the enlightened condition of Buddhists, Hindus`, or the Wheredehekowie religion with the pathetic condition of Christians, Moslems, and Jewish practices is not hitting (let alone aiming) at the right target. Neither is comparing the virtues of one Montheistic religion over another.

Both Eastern and Western religious thought and philosophy contain the wisdom that is not so much the form as it is the unique individuals that rise head and shoulders to cause a glimpse of what is the ineffible and the cure. The wise are found, if one is looking with clear eyesight, in every race, creed, and culture as God is not nearly as repressive as mankinds prejudice.

The wise are not a Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Christian, or Jewish. The wise are of a cosmic and universal religion that shines beyond all the pettiness and endless bickering of temporary positioning.
Fighting has never been a habit strictly confined to Christians; nor have wars been entirely unknown outside Christendom. It may be that certain hermits or holy men, both eastern and western, have individually abandoned war. But we are not talking about abandoning war, but about abolishing war. In what sense have Christians failed, in which Buddhists have not equally failed? In what respect is Buddhism or Hinduism, which has looked on at all the Asiatic fighting for thousands of years, any more successful than Christianity, that has barely looked on for two thousand? I do not think the thing is any real discredit either to Buddhism or Christianity, for anybody who is really "enlightened" about history and human nature. But if we are to be told about ten times a week by every newspaper and noisy talker that Christianity has failed to do anything because it has failed to stop fighting, what are we to say of the chances of the Chinese gentleman of stopping it in Europe with a new religion, when he could not stop it in Asia with an old one?

It is no disgrace to Christianity, it is no disgrace to any great religion, that its counsels of perfection have not made every single person perfect. If after centuries a disparity is still found between its ideal and its followers, it only means that the religion still maintains the ideal, and the followers still need it. But it is not a thing at which a philosopher in his five wits has any reason to be surprised. As a matter of fact, it would be much more reasonable to use this taunt against the irreligious who use it than against the religious against whom it is used.
-- G.K. Chesterton

Buddhism, like the other great faiths, has not always lived up to its principles - there are numerous examples of Buddhists engaging in violence and even war.

* in the 14th century Buddhist fighters led the uprising that evicted the Mongols from China


* in Japan, Buddhist monks trained Samurai warriors in meditation that made them better fighters


* In the twentieth century Japanese Zen masters wrote in support of Japan's wars of aggression. For example, Sawaki Kodo (1880–1965) wrote this in 1942:

"It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing [is preserved]. It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept that throws the bomb."

* In Sri Lanka the 20th century civil war between the mostly Buddhist Sinhalese majority and the Hindu Tamil minority has cost 50,000 lives.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/buddhism.shtml

Undoubtedly, this sort of sneer would be quite as unjust to Buddhism as to Monotheism. The ideal of Buddha might still be the best for men, even if millions of men continued to prefer what is lower than the best.

The truth is, that all such ideas of abolishing this and that and the wherefores, among the misunderstandings and temptations of mankind shows an essential ignorance of the very nature of mankind. It does not allow for the thousands of inconsistencies, dilemmas, contradicions, delusions, desperate remedies, and divided allegiances of Mankind.

This is, as H.L Mencken said: "To put your faith in the illogical belief in the improbable."

To insist on the improbability of beauty, grace, and transcendance of ignorance is to pull the veil over our own eyes and then complain the world is ugly. No solution found in the improbable eh?



Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan - a Muslim pacifist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_Abdul_Gaffar_Khan

There are wise found, not by creating preconceived frameworks of superiority but by being aware of what is transpiring with clarity.

Here is a list of writings from some of the greatest minds of true heart felt Islam:

http://www.omphaloskepsis.com/collection/

What profound wisdom is found in those writings defies all of our preconceived ideas of Truth being found in only one way.

Enlightenment, and only enlightenment will cure the ills of humanity.

Of course, what do Christians know?
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Post by David Quinn »

Dan,
Hmmm, why do I have the feeling I have completely wasted my time in this thread? Should I even bother relating what the local cafe owner, who happens to be a lefty atheistic Israeli, who worked for the IDF, and who left a Zionist-minded family behind, told me about Israeli society?

Nah. One person. Who cares.
I would be interested to hear it.

-
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Cunt face, cite your cocksucker source for this:
Bitch woman - tell me how many people who were moved from their lands without any compensation or personal decision to do so, are still alive. It would be less than a few thousand.
http://www.unis.unvienna.org/unis/press ... pd274.html

Describing the difficulties facing UNRWA, he said a main feature of the past year had been an increase in the demolition of refugee shelters in the Gaza Strip, where some 616 had been destroyed. In the West Bank, close to 100 shelters had been destroyed and many more needed repair. While major projects were under way in Jenin, Khan Younis and Rafah, there was no way the Agency could keep pace with the rate of destruction, he added.

The Observer for Palestine said that UNRWA's operating environment remained volatile and unstable, imposing even more burdens on the Agency and its resources. The delivery of humanitarian supplies, including food, medicine, blood and other urgently needed items, was often blocked or delayed and Agency staff were frequently prevented from reaching their jobs and returning to their homes. Six staff members had been killed during the reporting period and UNRWA schools, training centres and health facilities had been damaged by the actions of the occupying forces.

Jordan's representative said his country hosted more than 1.7 million Palestinian refugees registered with UNRWA, or some 42.1 per cent of the total number of Palestine refugees and about 90 per cent of the total number of Palestinians displaced since 1967. Jordan spent some $400 million on educational services, health, infrastructure, social welfare and security services for those refugees in addition to improving living conditions in 13 camps around the country. Jordan called on donor countries to increase their contributions until a final solution was found to the question of Palestine refugees.

Lebanon's representative said the question of Palestine refugees could not be reduced to issues of food and shelter since it was also a question of freedom, dignity and a return to one's own land. Lebanon's position was based on the refusal of the Palestinians to stay in Lebanon and their call for a return to their own homeland. It was also based on Lebanon's refusal to settle the refugees on its territory, a refusal that was now enshrined in the Lebanese Constitution. Furthermore, the refugees were a burden that exceeded Lebanon's ability to cope, besides causing a demographic imbalance in the country.

Syria's representative said that as a host, his country did everything it could to support the Palestine refugees. However, providing them with a dignified way of life was a tremendous financial burden, costing the Government some $94 million this year alone for education, social services, health care and housing. Syria encouraged donors to increase their contributions so that UNRWA could carry out its responsibilities more easily. The situation facing the Palestinian refugees was the result of Israel's bloodthirsty policies, which proved that Israel was not ready to reach a fair and comprehensive peace.

.
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Scott,
Don't you see how this is ALL fluff and no substance?
Is this an answer that’s supposed to prove what I posted on the subject of oil is not factual and represents jumping to conclusions?

Don’t you see how you are ALL fluff and no substance?

.
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Post by Leyla Shen »

David wrote:
Again, we are talking about seriously deluded people who are living in their own paranoid, nightmare world and who are beyond the reach of all reason. There is no such thing as a wise Muslim teacher, just as there is no such thing as a wise Ku Klux Klan leader.
Is there such a thing as a wise Christian teacher and, if so, how do you define one?

.
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Kevin: I don't think the purpose of the roadblocks and curfews is to "oppress" anyone, but is to reduce the number of Israelis being blown-up. Funnily enough, this possibility was not even mentioned in the documentary.

Leyla: Obviously you never watched the whole thing. And whether or not you did, you have some serious filters going on, Kevin.

Kevin: No, I only watched about 10 minutes, since its "reporting" was so narrow, emotionalist and distorted I didn't have any more time for it. What I saw came across as a cheaply produced propaganda reel, demonizing the Israelis.
My, such projection. Did that 10 minutes make you screw up your face in disgust and try to pass a lie (refer bolded text) off as rational analysis?

.
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Post by Leyla Shen »

drowden wrote:Hmmm, why do I have the feeling I have completely wasted my time in this thread? Should I even bother relating what the local cafe owner, who happens to be a lefty atheistic Israeli, who worked for the IDF, and who left a Zionist-minded family behind, told me about Israeli society?

Nah. One person. Who cares.
Me.

.
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Post by Dan Rowden »

Leyla beat me to that observation, but I have to say it makes me wish Kevin would simply shut the fuck up in this thread. I don't think I've ever seen so many opinions from someone who doesn't believe a word of the sources of his opinions. Makes me wonder where he's getting them from....
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Post by Leyla Shen »

He's spamming. I think he should be banned.

.
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Post by Dan Rowden »

Anyway, I was speaking to a local cafe owner couple, the husband a Frenchie, and the wife, unbeknowns to me till this evening, an Israeli (for some reason I thought she was French too - they make really good food btw). We were briefly discussing a local controversial development matter when the mid-east issue was raised and it came up that she was an Israeli. This couple is very politically aware and happy to talk about political issues. The husband apparently helped her get out of Irsael, presumably in a financial sense. She had worked in a secretarial role for the IDF and even in that seemingly inoccuous role she said she had to do [unspecified] things that she simply couldn't bring herself to do.

To state her situation and perspective concisely: many leftists and intellectuals have long since got the hell out of Israel because it is as religious and ideologically mad (Zionistically) as any of its so-called enemies. She said her Zionist minded family, whom she had to leave behind and from whom she has been cut off, are typical "kill or die for the cause" people. She said the sorts of societal elements that Kevin has been arguing are meaningfully present in Israel are just not there at all. Or at least not in a way that makes everyday life a thing remotely like a life in a truly liberal or free environment. She totally scoffed at the idea that Israel was less religiously fundamentalist than its neighbours.

If there are any specific questions regarding Israeli society and its actual reality that you would like to ask, I am sure she would be happy to address them (though I haven't actually asked her - she just seems like she'd be happy to answer them).

Her basic opinion (which reflects what has been mine all along): religious fanaticism and the mindless disregard for the consequences of violence is inculturated on both sides of the "debate". That's why she couldn't bare to live there anymore. She did not leave because of fear of Arab violence.

Dan Rowden
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Post by Kevin Solway »

Leyla Shen wrote:
I only watched about 10 minutes, since its "reporting" was so narrow, emotionalist and distorted I didn't have any more time for it. What I saw came across as a cheaply produced propaganda reel, demonizing the Israelis.
My, such projection.
Yes, it was projection, but was I wrong?

You can usually judge the worth of something from its first minutes, and I doubt that this was an exception.

Perhaps the first half of the documentary was used to paint the Israelis as evil, and then the second half painted the Palestinians as evil. Either way, I don't have time for that kind of reporting. I want to see the facts without the drama.

For example,

1. Palestinians feel oppressed.
2. Palestinians feel oppressed because Israelis feel threatened.
3. Israelis are threatened for the following reasons:
a.
b.
c.
4. Possible solutions.

These are the facts without all the nonsense.
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