GENIUS FORUMS

Dennis, why are you on a philosophy forum trying to audit people?

Dennis Mahar wrote:You make it mean what it means.
Meaningmaker.
Supply problems.

geddit?
nothin' to get.

When one's reasoning skills are absent, meaningmaker comes out in all its glory, claiming there's nothing to get while attempting to get Pam, Diebert, Kunga, Buddhist monks, etc. No reasoning about no self, caio, nothing here to get.

movingalways wrote: There is no self, only causes and supporting conditions. True or not?

Dennis Mahar wrote:You make it mean what it means.
Meaningmaker.
Supply problems.

geddit?
nothin' to get.

There's the question and the answer. Moving once posted a quote from Gautama about not existing and not not existing and not both existing and not existing and so forth.
She didn't seem to get the quote.

Spelling it out: 'lacks inherent *....*' (*meaning* *quality* *existence*)

If one says "I exist as a collection of energy/matter" that is not the truth because it is, as you described, idea-clinging. The imposing of a belief based in attachment to names and forms. Ultimately it's meaningless.

What we generally do, is cling to an idea, and impose that idea on existence which lacks inherent *...*

The ignorant, such as a believer in the creator god, has the idea, imposes it on existence, and fails to recognize that it lacks validity, that he is clinging to a story.

The same goes for Laird, he's deceived himself into thinking his right and wrong isn't his own creation and imposition, that it is the abundantly clear truth. His idea is dependent on suffering and how it sucks and we should help to get rid of it.

If suffering wasn't something he wanted to avoid his morality goes out the window.

Which is no different to your story of a release from existence and suffering. Again based in attachment to ideas/names/forms, because 'suffering' sucks and you don't want to be reborn any more.

Pam,
Research the Sutra speaking out of Nirvana, it's called the H something , Hyania,,dunno, forget, something like that.
That's the main one, next in rank is the Lotus.
Stick to those 2 and get the rest of the crap out of your head fred.
Ultimately there are no reasons, there are causes/conditions.
Save yourself a headache.


Leyla,
If you want to discuss Scientology I'm available.
You coach OK, or don't.

I have an acquaintance who went thru' OT levels and is a wonderful being.

No, let's discuss Scientology and the non-existing self right here. That is what everyone here is doing, no?

OT: A being who is knowing and willing cause over life, thought, matter, energy, space and time. For thousands of years men have sought the state of complete spiritual freedom from the endless cycle of birth and death and have sought personal immortality containing awareness, memory and ability as a spirit independent of the flesh. In Scientology this state has been attained. We call this state "Operating Thetan".

http://www.najbjerg.info/scientologi/fo ... echart.pdf

Yeah,
Pure Bliss.
End of Story.
Just like I said.

Dennis Mahar wrote:Ultimately there are no reasons, there are causes/conditions.

This is where your understanding stops where it naturally could have flourished if you didn't keep smothering it. Reasoning is the "about" of these causes and conditions, the realizing and processing of the causality in everything. You "show up" and you supply therefore already reason, in other words: "you" are being caused. Ultimately there are nothing but reasons/abouts but we can not grasp the totality of them. But we can grasp causality; we can get reasonable.

Ultimately there are nothing but reasons/abouts but we can not grasp the totality of them. But we can grasp causality; we can get reasonable.

Ultimately, there are both, which is why we can grasp causality and reason, or not.

Dennis Mahar wrote:Yeah,
Pure Bliss.
End of Story.
Just like I said.

You know, Dennis, that sounds like real pain and suffering to me. At the top of the Tone Scale even is "serenity of being", not bliss.

Oh well shit happens.

Did you take on the OT levels?
Can you describe level 2 Bridge?

Pam,
Research the Sutra speaking out of Nirvana, it's called the H something , Hyania,,dunno, forget, something like that.
That's the main one, next in rank is the Lotus.
Stick to those 2 and get the rest of the crap out of your head fred.
Ultimately there are no reasons, there are causes/conditions.
Save yourself a headache.

You assume I want to be in the condition of bliss. I do not. I have been in the condition of bliss, for which I am most grateful, for having been in the condition of bliss, I have reasoned why bliss, of all the supporting conditions for existence, is the condition most responsible for the perpetuation of human suffering.

I did not say that ultimately one can know the reasons for existence, to believe that is the epitome of ignorance, but the human mind is moved from condition to condition by way of reasoning that ultimately, they cannot know the reasons for existence. Bliss, like every condition, is impermanent. Have you not reasoned this truth for yourself?

*Edited to correct wording in second paragraph*

John: What we generally do, is cling to an idea, and impose that idea on existence which lacks inherent *...*

The reason we suffer. Which is why one must reason why bliss (or any human thought) cannot save human being from suffering.

Leyla Shen wrote:

Dennis Mahar wrote:Yeah,
Pure Bliss.
End of Story.
Just like I said.

You know, Dennis, that sounds like real pain and suffering to me. At the top of the Tone Scale even is "serenity of being", not bliss.

"Serenity of being" or "bliss" is addressed by the Buddha as being the supporting condition for six more supporting conditions before deliverance from all supporting conditions is exhausted. He also addresses why bliss is the most clinging of all conditions. The mind caught in bliss clinging no longer can hear the teachings of deliverance from all supporting conditions, bliss included.

Bliss is created from nothing.
Same as suffering.

Emptiness.

As soon as you have to have a reason for it (bliss),
an in order to for the sake of,
bye bye birdie

don't make me draw up a list of all the reasons in the World for suffering.

Dennis Mahar wrote:Bliss is created from nothing.
Same as suffering.

Emptiness.

This is what you learned in Scientology? Not much of a sales pitch.

As soon as you have to have a reason for it (bliss),
an in order to for the sake of,
bye bye birdie

don't make me draw up a list of all the reasons in the World for suffering.

I am not saying one can find a reason for the suffering of bliss, I am saying one can find THE reason for the suffering of bliss. THE reason is Ignorance, craving, clinging to an idea. Bliss, like any other idea that must be recalled into order to engage one's being in its 'story', is just that, an idea based on thought recollection, on clinging. Bliss is about clinging to bliss, ergo, bliss is Ignorance.. There is a reason why the saying "ignorance is bliss" has not disappeared from human language. :-)

I don't need your list of all the reasons in the World for suffering, save your typing fingers, there is only one reason: Ignorance.

Listen,
Nothing exists absolutely.
It's empty and meaningless that it's empty and meaningless,
you provide the meaning.

geddit?
there's nothin' to get.

emptiness and bliss in combination.

buy a car (bliss)
car breaks down (bliss)
fix the car (bliss)
sell the car (bliss)

a stroll in the park.

Dennis, did you really manage to hypnotize yourself with that trick? It's all good.... When you'll snap out of it, the landing might be hard. It's all good. You need to keep repeating it, right? It's all good. It's also good except when it isn't. And that's also good. The bliss is bought (all good), the bliss is broken (empty! empty!), fix the bliss (can't have bad), sell the bliss (all good).

As for serenity of being, the keyword is "undisturbed" or as some traditions have it: "purity". Not as character trade or self-hypnosis, forget about that tranquil monk!

When all becomes change and condition, the liberation is about the constant and unconditioned and it's not us. It's not that state of being you think you might enter.

No form, no shape, no particular vibe, high or low, no death or zombie state, no higher energy or lack of thought. Certainly no ecstasy and no suffering. The perfect no-no!

Dennis is saying that in balanced equilibrium the mass of a spinning top rotates around the central, unmoving axis.

Buying, breaking, fixing, selling, sexing, suffering, landing hard, losing, pissing and blissing … all the activity, the movement, the states experienced …

are the mass of the spinning top,

not you.

Si?

Dennis Mahar wrote:Listen,
Nothing exists absolutely.
It's empty and meaningless that it's empty and meaningless,
you provide the meaning.

geddit?
there's nothin' to get.

emptiness and bliss in combination.

buy a car (bliss)
car breaks down (bliss)
fix the car (bliss)
sell the car (bliss)

a stroll in the park.

Why does one need bliss to buy a car? Or to fix a car? Or to sell a car? I need a car, I buy a car. The car breaks down, I fix the car. I need to sell the car, I sell the car. Listen to Diebert on this one, serenity of being is not about being blissful or not being blissful, but about being undisturbed. "Be still and know I am God." This is what I was referring to when I spoke of post-wisdom awareness of the rising up within one's consciousness of the 'desire heap to world build or meaning-make.' Why do you require bliss to be present to buy a car or fix a car or sell a car? What happens if bliss is not present?

Dennis:

Did you take on the OT levels?

The god realms? Who, me? No, I never took them on. But it might be more accurate to say, the OT levels never took me on. (:

In the beginning, what I had been interested in myself was the purif and the practical aspect of the TRs appealed to me. I was far more interested in the training side, the “whys and whats”—the reasons for—it all.

Can you describe level 2 Bridge?

Not as a PC, but as graduate auditor, yes. Level 2 is my highest level of training. I assume you are asking me this question in particular because there is on the Bridge a direct relation between it and enlightenment as a “state of awareness”. As I mentioned earlier, I had never noticed that before. So, what I make of it now is that in Scientology, enlightenment is when an individual is sufficiently released from “charge” (all those unconscious, reactionary feelings) relating to transgressions on the four flows (self to self, self to other, others to self, others to others) that the transgressions against him and his own transgressions against others no longer have a debilitating effect; he is freed up of the burden of such past upsets to make clear and reasoned decisions in the present. The “earlier similar” stuff is about getting to the first in a chain of such experiences that foggy up “theta”. Since I don’t believe in an immortal soul independent of the flesh, “theta” did and still does translate to me as simply as "thought".

I never knew anything about Buddhism when I came across Scientology so many years ago. But I’ll be damned if I can’t see the reason for the many parallels between it and Buddhism, especially now!

Fascinating.

Well, actually, it says "awareness characteristic", not "state of awareness"...

In the beginning, what I had been interested in myself was the purif and the practical aspect of the TRs appealed to me. I was far more interested in the training side, the “whys and whats”—the reasons for—it all.

The TRs can't be explained.
Only in the direct experience are the TRs known.
A possibility for meditation x 50,000.
OK?

So, what I make of it now is that in Scientology, enlightenment is when an individual is sufficiently released from “charge” (all those unconscious, reactionary feelings) relating to transgressions on the four flows (self to self, self to other, others to self, others to others) that the transgressions against him and his own transgressions against others no longer have a debilitating effect; he is freed up of the burden of such past upsets to make clear and reasoned decisions in the present. The “earlier similar” stuff is about getting to the first in a chain of such experiences that foggy up “theta”. Since I don’t believe in an immortal soul independent of the flesh, “theta” did and still does translate to me as simply as "thought".

it's so obvious.
Clarity.

I never knew anything about Buddhism when I came across Scientology so many years ago. But I’ll be damned if I can’t see the reason for the many parallels between it and Buddhism, especially now!

Fascinating.

Wonderful.
LRH was cool.
Totally practical.
Game changer.
He always said the training was the real deal.

huh, you guys did Scientology training?