GENIUS FORUMS

In a little over a month, my twelve month hiatus from university will be over, and I will have to decide whether or not I want to go back. (With my poor attendance, my GPA had slipped enough that a genuine re-admission might be tricky; I'm still registered, though, and capable of applying to any course.)

The only degree that the University of Alberta offers that now even remotely interests me, and this solely for philosophic reasons, is "Agricultural Sciences", since I've got a Tao te Ching-inspired fascination with growing things, combined with a belief that agriculture is the most important aspect of civilization. The greatest value of this degree would be the mobility it offers: I imagine that someone with one would be eligible for government positions anywhere in the developing world. I've got my eye on Ethiopia.

My brother, of course, said that I probably don't have the attention span for this. I'm known for coming up with difficult plans and not following through.

I know already that the most likely reason I would not follow through with a plan of this nature is if I can think of a solid reason not to do it. But I don't have the objectivity and foresight to fully assess my future reasons, which will involve me pitting a large portion of my reasoning ability against experiences I have not yet had.

So: can anyone think of reasons why this plan is not a good one?

I don't know how much the U of A can teach you about farming. You are almost better to put that cash towards a plot of land and query google for your farming questions.

Trevor, I think you should determine if the university will be training you only to think in terms of agribiz, large scale farming that focuses on maximizing technology, monocrops and the latest chemicals, or if the university is also offering more holistic, less linear approaches and perspectives.

There is really something quite remarkable about Masanobu Fukuoka, given he had chosen farming as a spiritual practice.

I find he exaggerates his 'do nothing' concept a bit, there's no escaping hard work, but I think he's trying emphasize what I know you realize is an important philosophical psychological state of mind.

There's also a lot to be said about Forest Gardening as well.

At the bottom of the page there'll be links to

* Agroecology
* Agroforestry
* Analog forestry
* Companion plants
* List of companion plants
* Multiple cropping
* Permaculture
* Polyculture

All very significant in my view.

A great book I read not too long ago was The Soul of Soil

Very enlightening and very scientific look at the art of 'growing good soil', which is really the only thing a person should worry about growing. If you have that, then everything else will pretty much take care of itself.

Go to university and complete the program if you have the opportunity. You know full well that most of it is rubbish and that is not going to change. It doesn't need to, though. Go for the simple and pragmatic reason that it will make your life easier and/or broader in certain conventional regards, or at least it has the potential to do so.

Novice thinkers rebel against everything, become universal nonconformists, and refuse to do anything that isn't well-supported in their own value systems. In that sense, they are scarcely different from "emo" teenagers playing offensive music to annoy the neighbors. More experienced thinkers realize that it is sometimes advantageous to do mundane things for entirely conventional and pragmatic reasons. "In the world but not of the world" does imply being involved to a certain extent.

Don't go getting a job, though. For you, that would be going entirely too far.

This might be a better intro to Fukuoka

Trev, you and I are in a similar boat. I had poor attendence/bad GPA at Fairfield U in Connecticut, and I would have to reapply to finish my last semester. I'm not really planning on going back because I can't imagine a job I would want that would require a degree. But as you say there are practical considerations, which is why I made the "food, water, shelter, $$$" thread. My current plan is to get a Yoga teachers certification. I know some people who do just fine with that, and stay healthy at the same time. Just thought I'd share my story. Best of luck.

Neil,

I don't know how much the U of A can teach you about farming. You are almost better to put that cash towards a plot of land and query google for your farming questions.

My interest in the degree is, as I said, for mobility. If I want to ingratiate myself to the powers-that-be of any country in the developing world, having this particular pretentious piece of paper is way better than a plane ticket.


Cory,

Trevor, I think you should determine if the university will be training you only to think in terms of agribiz, large scale farming that focuses on maximizing technology, monocrops and the latest chemicals, or if the university is also offering more holistic, less linear approaches and perspectives.

This is Alberta. It is going to be teaching the sort of agriculture that we use here: that is to say, large-scale business. Along with animal science, plant science, soil science, and general biology, courses in economics, math, and statistics are required. Nothing particularly difficult or interesting, but all designed to make the most efficient use of land.

There appears to be a specialization in "sustainable agriculture", but it's way too scatter-brained for my interests. They throw political science in there, and other such gibberish.


Uni,

Don't go getting a job, though. For you, that would be going entirely too far.

Thanks. :)

I honestly don't know why I think I'd be willing to work for the government of a small African country when I'm already not willing to work for the government of Canada. It just feels so mind-bendingly stupid that people would not make the association between "people are starving in Ethiopia" to "if you knew how to feed large groups of people, you could easily take over a small African country". I mean, I didn't make that association until a couple days ago... but still!

Maybe I'll do it as long as it feels like play. I could only stand chess for so long before it seemed pointless and easy. Not sure how long before world domination seems pointless and easy.

Trevor,

As far as commercial agricultural methods are concerned, some are more destructive than others. Some approaches do not need as much reform as others because the amount of soil damage is actually quite manageable.

For instance: mono-crops such as fruit trees, grapes, berries, and other perennials do not cause as much soil erosion because the soil doesn’t have to be tilled annually, and one can actually do quite well with the existing commercial methods for these crops. However, the problem arises when one is trying to grow some of the annual veggies and grains such as Corn, bean, Oats, Rice, and so on, as these crops require annual planting, therefore tilling, chemical treatment and fertilization become commonplace, but these techniques have their own negative affects on the environment.

Cory’s alternatives are sound, but I also have faith that some of the scientists specializing in plant genetics will continue to come up with perennial strains of the existing annual veggie and grain varieties, which has already been done with wheat I believe. So with the perennial strains, the existing commercial models shouldn’t be as destructive to the health of the soil as they are presently.

It would be nice to further tinker the with genes of edible perennials to make them more adaptive to northern conditions. It would also be nice to see people at least make use of the edible perennials that we already have. Especially in the warmer climates. That people are starving and malnourished in tropical areas is very absurd, given that they have the opportunity to grow food quite easily.

Unidian wrote:Go for the simple and pragmatic reason that it will make your life easier and/or broader in certain conventional regards, or at least it has the potential to do so.

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:My interest in the degree is, as I said, for mobility. If I want to ingratiate myself to the powers-that-be of any country in the developing world, having this particular pretentious piece of paper is way better than a plane ticket.

I honestly don't see the big advantage. Given I can't think of a job that I will apply for that will ever require this piece of paper, what are the greater advantages?

Cory Duchesne wrote:It would be nice to further tinker the with genes of edible perennials to make them more adaptive to northern conditions. It would also be nice to see people at least make use of the edible perennials that we already have. Especially in the warmer climates. That people are starving and malnourished in tropical areas is very absurd, given that they have the opportunity to grow food quite easily.

It isn't easy to grow food to accommodate everyone. We don't have enough energy to do it and even if we did (ie, by shutting down the developed world) it would be a stupid idea. Just let them reproduce out of control and starve.

skipair wrote:I honestly don't see the big advantage. Given I can't think of a job that I will apply for that will ever require this piece of paper, what are the greater advantages?

If you don't see an advantage, then it's probably not there. Everyone has different needs for their own physical and spiritual well being. In my case I spent two years at a technical school and received an associates degree. I'm still paying off a $9,000 student loan, but I have managed to find a job that is neither mentally or physically demanding, which allows me to focus on the always important spiritual and philosophical aspects of my life. I work mon-fri from 7am-3pm, and sometimes I might work overtime if I need a little extra money. It pays $14 and hour and $21 an hour for overtime, i.e. every hour over 40, along with dental/health insurance. Basically I watch numbers pop up on a computer and jot down the numbers, then pack up the parts to be shipped. It is very tedious, and I'm not a fan of the whole "9-5 job schedule", but I don't think I could find an easier job that pays as well as this one, especially living in the state which currently has the highest unemployment rate.

It's give and take, but for me I think the good outweighs the bad, for now.

Neil Melnyk wrote:It isn't easy to grow food to accommodate everyone.

It isn't easy to do anything that is noble, intelligent and wise. What's easy is always crude, vulgar, foolish and simple-minded.

It is possible to grow food to accommodate everyone.

We don't have enough energy to do it

Yes, we certainly do have enough energy to do it. Africa generally has nowhere near sustainable agriculture - and it could have it.

Just let them reproduce out of control and starve.

The trend is perhaps likely to continue: some sort of slightly refined gene pool will likely emerge from the ashes. Hostile conditions often create refinement and strength. The problem over there, if neglected, will never go away, but will simply mutate over time. That being said, it might be wise to intervene and try to encourage the sort of minds that we value, rather than allow something even more virulent, pernicious and vigorous to emerge that comes back to haunt us. Perhaps Africa is like a bad drug habit that will ultimately degrade and destroy humanity. Might be best to try and get clean.

It isn't easy to grow food to accommodate everyone.

However, it is easy to be a whiny social Darwinist who refuses to help anyone because he might get a few blisters.

Trevor,

Your 22yrs old. Go back to University and become a doctor or lawyer or something that will provide you with a lot of money and a comfortable life - get married - have some kids...Live in a mansion and don't forget those charities!

...Or you can become another panhandling philosopher.

(...Or farmer.)

Your choice.

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:combined with a belief that agriculture is the most important aspect of civilization

you're DEADLY wrong on this one. Agriculture has been the source of most misery of 'civilization.' If you want to go to Africa, join the Kalahari Bushmen in South Africa, they hunt and gather food, which means they have plenty of time for more important things.

What are the more important things in your view, Faust?

If you lack the mechanical skill to maintain agricultural equipment, blow that plan off. But also pay attention to the effects, in different areas, of global warming. The USDA grain report said that Canada's grain crop was cut by unusually hot dry summer weather.

I dunno what it is in Canada, but the posted average age of (I think they mean grain) farmers is 61. When these boys retire, the demand for anyone who knows how to handle the equipment will rise dramatically. But rather than a BS in college, a trade school education in mechanics, welding, and machine shop work will look a lot more useful to investors and agrarian personnel managers.

Guys who instinctively know what machinery that is working at maximum performance levels are worth their weight in silver every year. You wanna cover as much ground every day, but you dont wanna bust it.

Considering the likely price of oil, the Amish are onto something. What they lack in mechanical skill they make up for by their awareness of the condition of the draft animals. Having a grass fed beef operation that will provide you some calves you can train as oxen would be smart. Raising heifers for milk production mite be even smarter since those breeds are so much more personable. (well, skip Holstein)

But whatever, as the price of oil rises, food production that uses little or no petrochemicals will be a definate money maker. Mite try to apprentis with an old farmer. One of my young friends married the daughter; he will inherit the farm. He's already such an apprentis. Or maybe by now, 5 years later, a journeyman. His wife is not going to dump him for a stud muffin who dont know how to run the place.

[...]But rather than a BS in college[...]

...Stick with the Medical degree...

I dunno what it is in Canada, but the posted average age of (I think they mean grain) farmers is 61.

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I wonder what Fried-rich Nietzsche would have done if given the opportunity in this day and age?

<I wonder what Fried-rich Nietzsche would have done if given the opportunity in this day and age?>
When he was young and vigorous, or older, sicker, but wiser? Either way, he would have attacked the hypocrisy of Christianity. Either way, he would have thot Ayn Rand, Hitler, & the Nazis were fools.

He was prolly born with the sense of noblesse oblige. At some point he discovered the vedas and drugs that assist with altered states of consciousness. Its all a game, but you play it anyway as if it matters.