GENIUS FORUMS

I wouldn't say we have no principles, we just don't apply any reasoning to them to better understand them, and the little understanding of them that we do have isn't put into practice.

Ask not what your principles can do for you, ask what you can do for your principles.


What do you think about that?

Matt Gregory wrote:I wouldn't say we have no principles, we just don't apply any reasoning to them to better understand them, and the little understanding of them that we do have isn't put into practice.

What's this "we" shit? :)

Seriously, I think the statement would have been more effective in first person.

To the first part I would say principles are part of morality.

The rest falls under the category "Know thyself."

Ask not what your principles can do for you, ask what you can do for your principles.

Not a bad way to see it.

Carl G wrote:

Matt Gregory wrote:I wouldn't say we have no principles, we just don't apply any reasoning to them to better understand them, and the little understanding of them that we do have isn't put into practice.

What's this "we" shit? :)

I'm trying to encourage people to go beyond the mentality of "follow your superiors, bring home your paycheck, eat, drink, pet your loved ones, sleep, conform".

Carl G wrote:Seriously, I think the statement would have been more effective in first person.

I don't think it expresses the idea that the phenomenon is widespread as well.

To the first part I would say principles are part of morality.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think morality should be developed on a personal level and consist of more than blind rule following.

The rest falls under the category "Know thyself."

Yeah, I want to elaborate on it.

Ask not what your principles can do for you, ask what you can do for your principles.

Not a bad way to see it.

I think the sentiment is okay, but I don't think anyone should do anything for their principles unless they have thought a lot about them. Kind of a hard idea to get across in an aphorism.

Matt Gregory wrote:

Carl G wrote: What's this "we" shit? :)

I'm trying to encourage people to go beyond the mentality of "follow your superiors, bring home your paycheck, eat, drink, pet your loved ones, sleep, conform".

Do you really think the average reader here is mentally that type of person? So why not bring it to the personal level, where the rubber meets the road, where reality is really experienced anyway?

Carl G wrote:Seriously, I think the statement would have been more effective in first person.

I don't think it expresses the idea that the phenomenon is widespread as well.

Why do you care how widespread the phenomenon is?

To the first part I would say principles are part of morality.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think morality should be developed on a personal level and consist of more than blind rule following.

Exactly. So, why should it matter what others think or do? One can barely exercise any control over oneself, which is the real issue anyway: know thyself.

The rest falls under the category "Know thyself."

Yeah, I want to elaborate on it.

In what way? By saying that by knowing oneself one can exercise control over oneself, thereby becoming able to better put principles into practice?

Ask not what your principles can do for you, ask what you can do for your principles.

Not a bad way to see it.

I think the sentiment is okay, but I don't think anyone should do anything for their principles unless they have thought a lot about them. Kind of a hard idea to get across in an aphorism.

Agreed, but again, why are you framing this as being about others? You seem to be attempting to remedy the spiritual ills of society, like, can't we all just get along? It sounds vaguely new age.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." ~Gandhi.

Now, there's an aphorism with practical application.

Carl G wrote: So why not bring it to the personal level, where the rubber meets the road, where reality is really experienced anyway?

I seem to get a lot of flack for that technique.

Most people are too unconscious to be said to have principles. What they have is memes.

Spot on, Dan. And again succinctly put.

Isabelle wrote:

So why not bring it to the personal level, where the rubber meets the road, where reality is really experienced anyway?

I seem to get a lot of flack for that technique.

Which technique? Suggesting to people here that they speak personally rather than for society?

Carl G wrote:Isabelle wrote:

So why not bring it to the personal level, where the rubber meets the road, where reality is really experienced anyway?

I seem to get a lot of flack for that technique.

Which technique? Suggesting to people here that they speak personally rather than for society?

I speak from a personal level and I've gotten ugly responses to that from two members here recently. You asked why not to bring it to a personal level, and I offered that comment as a reference to a possible reason not to.

When a person opens themselves up to the personal level and someone takes a pot-shot at it, they are not just shooting down an idea, their shooting you down too. It takes a lot to take personal shots, especially someplace where you might be vulnerable.

Matt's question was about not putting reasoned principles into practice. Start plucking that one out of the air, and someone will want to know a specific example of how Matt did not understand or practice his own principles. Having shortcomings is hard enough - even though we all have them - but sharing them when you're not ready for the consequences is like throwing chum into the water and swimming without getting in a shark cage.

-Elizabeth

Carl G wrote:

Matt Gregory wrote:

Carl G wrote: What's this "we" shit? :)

I'm trying to encourage people to go beyond the mentality of "follow your superiors, bring home your paycheck, eat, drink, pet your loved ones, sleep, conform".

Do you really think the average reader here is mentally that type of person?

If I did then why would I bother asking here?

So why not bring it to the personal level, where the rubber meets the road, where reality is really experienced anyway?

Because I don't think a confessional type of phrasing would have that effect.

I wouldn't say I have no principles, I just don't apply any reasoning to them to better understand them, and the little understanding of them that I do have I don't put into practice.

That makes it comical, like I have no choice over what I'm doing or something.

Carl G wrote:Seriously, I think the statement would have been more effective in first person.

I don't think it expresses the idea that the phenomenon is widespread as well.

Why do you care how widespread the phenomenon is?

I don't know.

To the first part I would say principles are part of morality.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think morality should be developed on a personal level and consist of more than blind rule following.

Exactly. So, why should it matter what others think or do? One can barely exercise any control over oneself, which is the real issue anyway: know thyself.

It matters. It affects me and it affects everybody. You can't fence yourself off from everyone else.

The rest falls under the category "Know thyself."

Yeah, I want to elaborate on it.

In what way? By saying that by knowing oneself one can exercise control over oneself, thereby becoming able to better put principles into practice?

Yeah, whatever would be best at making people think.

Ask not what your principles can do for you, ask what you can do for your principles.

Not a bad way to see it.

I think the sentiment is okay, but I don't think anyone should do anything for their principles unless they have thought a lot about them. Kind of a hard idea to get across in an aphorism.

Agreed, but again, why are you framing this as being about others? You seem to be attempting to remedy the spiritual ills of society, like, can't we all just get along? It sounds vaguely new age.

Maybe it's new age, I don't know. I just often have the compulsion to do these types of things.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." ~Gandhi.

Now, there's an aphorism with practical application.

So why is it okay for Gandhi to say things about other people and not me?

Dan Rowden wrote:Most people are too unconscious to be said to have principles. What they have is memes.

Meme people suck.

Matt Gregory wrote: Meme people suck.

lol

Matt Gregory wrote:

Carl G wrote:

I'm trying to encourage people to go beyond the mentality of "follow your superiors, bring home your paycheck, eat, drink, pet your loved ones, sleep, conform".

Do you really think the average reader here is mentally that type of person?

If I did then why would I bother asking here?

Yes, why would you?

You imply that you don't think the average reader here is in 'the mentality of "follow your superiors, bring home your paycheck, eat, drink, pet your loved ones, sleep, conform"'.

Yet you encourage them to go beyond this mentality?

"I wouldn't say I have no principles, I just don't apply any reasoning to them to better understand them, and the little understanding of them that I do have I don't put into practice."

That makes it comical, like I have no choice over what I'm doing or something.

That does not sound comical to me. It sounds truthful, and like the basis for a discussion.

Carl G wrote: Why do you care how widespread the phenomenon is?

I don't know.

Know thyself.

Why do you act without knowing your motive?

Does this not illustrate your statement, "I wouldn't say I have no principles, I just don't apply any reasoning to them to better understand them"

Exactly. So, why should it matter what others think or do? One can barely exercise any control over oneself, which is the real issue anyway: know thyself.

It matters. It affects me and it affects everybody. You can't fence yourself off from everyone else.

If you change yourself, the world changes. Or haven't you noticed this? This being the point of Gandhi's aphorism "Be the change you want to see in the world."

If you are not working within to change yourself, how do expect others to do the same? So why frame it as a focus on others at all?

The rest falls under the category "Know thyself."

Yeah, I want to elaborate on it.

In what way? By saying that by knowing oneself one can exercise control over oneself, thereby becoming able to better put principles into practice?

Yeah, whatever would be best at making people think.

Yeah, whatever?? Do you expect others to think for you?

You seem to be attempting to remedy the spiritual ills of society, like, can't we all just get along? It sounds vaguely new age.

Maybe it's new age, I don't know. I just often have the compulsion to do these types of things.

The compulsion? You don't know?

Again, it comes down to know thyself.

You advise others to do this but do not speak of doing this for yourself. That is why I suggested making this about you, or each of us, by putting the issue into first person terms.

What holds me back (from living my principles)? Not, what holds others, the masses, society back?

Carl,

You imply that you don't think the average reader here is in 'the mentality of "follow your superiors, bring home your paycheck, eat, drink, pet your loved ones, sleep, conform"'.

Yet you encourage them to go beyond this mentality?

You've misunderstood my intention apparently. I was asking you guys about those aphorisms. Yes, I am encouraging people here with them, but that wasn't my primary purpose in posting them.

Why do you act without knowing your motive?

Eh? You suggested my motive and I agreed with you. I don't see what the problem is.

If you are not working within to change yourself, how do expect others to do the same? So why frame it as a focus on others at all?

Number one, you're going to have show some causal relationship between the two because as far as I can see there isn't one, unless you look at others as mindless robots who follow what other people do without any ability to think about alternatives. And two, you'll need to show that I'm not working to change myself. I say the evidence is against you because I'm sitting here taking criticism from you which is a blatant opportunity for me to change myself!

What holds me back (from living my principles)? Not, what holds others, the masses, society back?

Society holds me back just as much as myself. I hold back society just as much as I hold back myself. It's not possible to act in isolation from everything, nor is it possible for the causes of something to be completely different from the causes of the things around it. We're all affecting each other in some way all the time, either instigating change or reinforcing sameness. I'm trying to change you here and you're trying to change me. Mea culpa.