Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevail

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Dennis Mahar »

When you accept your oneness with God, then "I exist" and "God exists" are the same self-evident statements
I set you a task.
Carry it out.

Take that assessment and others you make like that into meditation.
Stay with it.
Come to see it can only be of a relative nature.
It's an attachment.
Set it free.
The 'I' having that thought clutching at straws. Is it not?

It will be difficult, nigh on impossible for you.
It's loaded with emotion and has become an identity.

To let it go would have that identity crumbling,
a most fearful event.
To let it go would be a major backflip,
the ground would fall away,
you would feel powerless.
voidness would threaten and terrify.

its what you have fronted up with as a strategy.
like a boxer leading with a left jab.
its come to represent a killer punch.
a winning formula.
it doesn't work, its dishonest.

its crippling and binding because it is of a relative nature only.
It cannot ever have absolute existence.
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Russell Parr
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Russell Parr »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:That's because language sucks, not only do we each have different concepts linked to the word "mind", or "god", "tao" or even "nothing", but the very things we are trying to talk about can't be described. Trying to communicate personal meanings/concepts without misinterpretation is almost impossible, meanings which in themselves exist only as illusion.
No, your language sucks. It is much more inconsistent then it has to be, and it will most certainly cause confusion amongst anyone you present your ideas with. Even Dennis' assertions are more straight-forward than yours. I am able to understand Deibert much easier than I am able to understand you, and I very much sense that it's not because I've been here longer, but rather because your words continuously contradict themselves.

You say that the mind is the Tao, and that the mind is the only thing that exists, yet, in truth, the Tao is all that exists, and non-existence. Other (sensible) names for the Tao: the Infinite, the Totality. If the mind exists, then it came from somewhere, thus negating it from being the Tao instead of just part of the Tao. For anything to exist, it must depend on existence, and thus causation. You say that reality is an interweb of experiences, what about the spaces and gaps between the experiences? The transitions of experience? Saying "sense experience is mind" doesn't speak for these things.

If you've gained a profound, accurate understanding of reality, that is great, but if your words are to be an indicator of anything, they say that you've still got some learning to do. Tighten up your language brother.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

bluerap wrote: Tighten up your language brother.
That wraps it up for me as well. Language reflects, at its best, our own thought patterns. It might even be some feedback loop. Of course one is free to say or think whatever but with communication and reflection being the aim, it all just becomes more demanding and critical. But it can be improved, just like meditation can help with focusing or relaxing, proper use and correction of ones language improves clarity and comprehension abilities. It's not about the big and difficult words but about internal consistency, sufficient structure, simplicity and flexibility. And applying this through language can have great consequences as it shapes also the ability of the mind to digest some of the seemingly complicated and abstract notions which philosophical thought brings to the table. It's not just all vanity or it doesn't have to be anyway.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

I just posted this on the other thread and it is directly relevant to what you were saying about mind, tao and existence bluerap, this is my answer, I hope the language comes through well enough to convey my meaning, and it is not inconsistent at all, contradictions in language aren't real contradictions unless the reader takes them as real contradictions, find the middle ground, paradoxical topics.

"You've here distinguished the bowl and the water.

The bowl and the water are part of the same canvas, they can't be separated and viewing them as two or split is error.

The appearance of mind, the bowl, is just as much of an appearance as the water, they are both just appearances, they are of the same kind, they don't differ, it is appearances that I consider real. A dream is an appearance, nothing more, can you see something, or can it appear, without it existing in some form? Appearances exist, nothing else.

There are no witnesses, only the appearance of witnessing.

That's individual witnesses I am referring to, instead there is one witness through which all the individual appearances of witnessing arise, and it isn't "John" or the "awareness of John", that's just an appearance, instead it's the common source of all these appearances.

How do I know? I state that it is impossible for the "Tao" or the unknown to manifest such appearances, such dreams and illusions, without being aware to them.

Can one imagine something without being aware of it on some level?

Universal awareness, the singular witness"
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Take that assessment and others you make like that into meditation.
Stay with it.
Come to see it can only be of a relative nature.
It's an attachment.
Set it free.
The 'I' having that thought clutching at straws. Is it not?
You can trust that I have contemplated this extensively for a long time, despite that my thoughts similar to: *There is a common source of these illusions which make up the universe therefore that source is divine*, are nothing more than another of those illusory concepts, imaginings of nothing, like the Horns on the hairs of a camel, existing only as some shallow thought, or how I would commonly describe it: Nothing more than another of those irrational thoughts that have no meaning in a dream, the same way the word "wave" or "frequency" has no meaning other than imagining some suiggly line or associated shallow concept. I am aware my conception of this "god" I refer to is nothing more than a conception that bares no relation to reality.

I still assert that knowledge of God, in my view, is the absolute and elusive knowledge that cannot properly be grasped by thought but is certain always, an example I gave was the knowledge of delusion, knowledge of the ignorance of our knowledge.

The more clear minded meditation I go through, the more contemplation, the more I "know" because I see clearly there is a celestial being, what I refer to as "me", made of mysterious and amazing illusion and appearances, a manifestation of the one essence that connects all our manifestations and makes them up, not an individual but part of a whole, and it is having all these thoughts and typing away in front of me.

How can there be a thought without a thinker? There can't be, that's clear to everyone. "I think therefore I am". And that "thinker" isn't "me". So then, what is "I"? What is thinking?
oxytocinNA
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by oxytocinNA »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Buddha
"The error in these erroneous teachings that are generally held by the philosophers lies in this: they do not recognize that the objective world rises from the mind itself; they do not understand that the whole mind-system also rises from the mind itself;"
Therefore nothing exists.
SeekerOfWisdom wrote:It would continue to dream
I can't get anything past you. OK fetuses do pick up sensory data in the womb.

Here is the point that you are missing - no sensory input - nothing for the mind interact with. Sensory data is the indicator of the external.

So for the sake of your future arguments - stop using that imaginary keyboard that springs up in your mind. Just send your arguments direct. Stop eating that food that pops up in your mind - it is an illusion. That would be cruel and prolonged - better to just cross a busy street and don't worry about the big metal things on wheels - they are just something that sprung up in your mind.

I forgot to mention - I like the circular nature of the part in red.

OK I'm out of this - wasting time.
Z1724v b7zb18xr y38 h24c23
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Oxy that "circular" part was a Buddha quote and it is the language that is circular not the concept, reality is full of paradoxes.

What he was trying to say is:

Oxy you have wrongly misinterpreted reality here: "sensory data is the indicator of the external"

"things exist only of the mind itself"

"The whole mind-system exists only of the mind itself"

Look deeper into your reasoning, in other words, there being growth rings on a tree in the forest doesn't mean the tree grew there or has a history.

Things spring into existence from mind, even the appearance of an individual "mind-system".
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Kunga
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Kunga »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:there being growth rings on a tree in the forest doesn't mean the tree grew there or has a history.

LOL !!!

That's exactly what it means !!!!!
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

We talked about this kunga :P Different view points, when you see a tree in a lucid dream did it grow there too? According to this reasoning of assuming things?
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Your reason for assuming the tree grew there just because you saw it just got destroyed, you need a new reason now... my opinion is that the second you turn away the tree diseappers as only what exists in perception exists and it only exists as far as it's perceived.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Things spring into existence from mind, even the appearance of an individual "mind-system".
And thereby cleverly distinguishing between "mind" and "mind-system". Cause and effect.

But what makes this any better than a religion saying something like the nine principles of the Egyptian Heliopolis:
  • In the beginning there was nothing (Nun). A mound of earth rose from Nun and upon it Atum created himself. He did not want to be alone so he masturbated (or spat) producing air (Shu), and moisture (Tefnut). Shu and Tefnut gave birth to the earth (Geb) and the sky (Nut). Geb and Nut were separated by Shu, creating our world. The children of Nut and Geb were Osiris, Horus the elder, Set, Isis and Nephthys.
To me you are saying the same thing, Atum the mind-system is springing form Atum the "singular" mind. It's another creation myth but you are using just modern terms like 'system'. It's a good myth and you're experiencing the principle but where are you now?
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Kunga
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Kunga »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:We talked about this kunga :P Different view points, when you see a tree in a lucid dream did it grow there too? According to this reasoning of assuming things?
A lucid dream is not the same reality as when you are awake. Things exist (from causes & conditions). Conventional reality is real, trees really grow in the forest....they don't disappear just because you are not there to percieve them. You can't percieve the cells in your body growing & dying. You are 18 years old. You grew for 18 years...just as the tree grows in a forest. If you put a camera in the forest to film for a week....you would see the forest was still there, even though you weren't. If a tree didn't grow, there would be no growth rings. Physical phenomena is real. But it's empty....meaning it exists because of causes and conditions, not that it exists independantly of causes and conditions....that would be impossible....just as it's impossible for phenomena to disappear just because you are not there percieving it. Yes, our brain/mind/senses/consciousness is like a radar/projector, for us to percieve the physical world, but our perceptions are limited. If we had super-powers we could manipulate physical reality, shape-shift, walk on water, walk through walls, change water into wine, and raise the dead.
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Kunga that's because you are still giving inherit existence to everything, your reason for there being an external physical reality is thus: It's complicated and consistent, so there must be.

Is an illusion any less of an illusion if it is complicated and seemingly consistent? No, not at all.

We are on very different ends of the thinking spectrum, I am not under the impression that you have a brain that is going through cognitive processes which are determining your conscious experience, I am under the impression that nothing exists but experience and the things in them, like this comment, exist only so far as they are seen, like seeing the horns on the hairs of camel's back while asleep, it isn't real, at all, it's just like a dream or hallucination, haven't I made my opinion on this clear?

Diebert

It was the Buddha that wrote/said: "Not-realizing that things exist only of the mind-itself, the mind-system also exists only of the mind itself"

Yes I have distinguished between "mind" and "mind-system", the second one is singular, your mind system which appears dieberts, is an illusion, a manifestation of mind, as all things are a manifestation of mind.

"Mind" non-singular is the same mind we are all part of, the only thing that makes you think your separate from me in anyway is the different experiences, nothing else separates us
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Kunga
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Kunga »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:that's because you are still giving inherit existence to everything,
No. I know things don't inherently exist. It's only logical. You don't understand the logic of inherent existence/emptiness.
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

You think the things your seeing exist outside of your seeing of them, happy?
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:It was the Buddha that wrote/said: "Not-realizing that things exist only of the mind-itself, the mind-system also exists only of the mind itself"
No, you wrote it actually if you think about it. You gave it meaning in this context. Don't hide it!
Yes I have distinguished between "mind" and "mind-system", the second one is singular, your mind system which appears dieberts, is an illusion, a manifestation of mind, as all things are a manifestation of mind.

"Mind" non-singular is the same mind we are all part of, the only thing that makes you think your separate from me in anyway is the different experiences, nothing else separates us
If there are as you say different experiences that means there are actual differences and therefore separations.

You have no idea what this "same mind" is, don't you? It's an article of faith. The only "thing" we can be sure to be all part of is "everything". By definition! Why give it fancier names? Even the word "god" seems better than "mind"! There's no reason to label "everything" with something so personal and functional as mind, it's a conflicting way of talking about it. It's definitely way bigger than our imagination can reach, we can know this because of our wonderful mind which can reason out what it doesn't know.
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Kunga
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Kunga »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:You think the things your seeing exist outside of your seeing of them, happy?
What we see (phenomena), exists because of conditions :

A tree didn't just POP into existence.
There had to be a seed, soil, water, air, sunlight....a process...conditions....
So things don't inherently exist on their own without the process of the conditions that made them possible.
When things are said to be "empty", that dosn't mean they don't exist (that's nilhism).
Nilhism is when you think nothing really exists....it's all illusion.

Form is Emptiness/Emptiness is form :

What you see, feel,hear, taste , smell, touch is dependant on your sense organs. Your sense organs are empty of inherent existence, as they arrose from causes and conditions.....how the body formed : Parents,sperm,egg,fertilization,cells forming, nerves system forming, internal organs forming,birth....your senses didn't just appear out of nowhere....

Emptiness is not an illusion. It's the logical way things arrise/form.

Everything is impermanent. That's where the illusion comes in. Like a bubble, a flash of lightning, etc.

Material things turn to dust eventually. Time is real in conventional reality, but an illusion Ultimately.

The Parodox : Samsara is Nirvana
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

What you see, feel, hear, smell, touch is not dependent on your sense organs. Your sense organs are only part of the illusion, you are formless, the vehicle of body is only part of the illusion, and the only reason you think "this place" is any more real than a dream is because your keeping yourself "alive" here, feeding the illusions. Without that you would revert somewhere else and this whole "more real place" would just be a lost dream.

Everything is impermanent because it is an illusion, that's not why it is an illusion.

That's just one characteristic of illusion, impermanence, it's an illusion because it's literally an illusion, do you know what literally means?

Literally, it's a dream, matter is made of the same stuff the walls in your dream are made of, are you hearing me?

"In the same way, clinging to the memory of erroneous speculations and doctrines accumulated since beginningless time, they hold fast to such ideas as oneness and otherness, being and nonbeing, and their thoughts are not at all clear as to what after all is only seen of the mind. It is like a man dreaming in his sleep of a country that seems to be filled with various men, women, elephants, horses, cars, pedestrians, villages, towns, hamlets, cows, buffalos, mansions, woods, mountains, rivers and lakes, and who moves about in that city until he is awakened."

See, Buddha here is trying to point out, that all things which apparently have more existence then the things in dreams, or are more "consistent" and "believable" don't actually have any more existence then the things in a dream, like that tree with growth rings in a dream, do you think it is still there when you look away while in a dream? Obviously not, for the same reason, everything here has as much existence as that dream tree and it's growth rings.
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
No, you wrote it actually if you think about it. You gave it meaning in this context. Don't hide it!

If there are as you say different experiences that means there are actual differences and therefore separations.

You have no idea what this "same mind" is, don't you? It's an article of faith. The only "thing" we can be sure to be all part of is "everything". By definition! Why give it fancier names? Even the word "god" seems better than "mind"! There's no reason to label "everything" with something so personal and functional as mind, it's a conflicting way of talking about it. It's definitely way bigger than our imagination can reach, we can know this because of our wonderful mind which can reason out what it doesn't know.
The Buddha wrote it, I agreed with it, what am I trying to hide? He was right

The appearances you see are in accordance with the appearances I see, my body is in accordance, it is of the same essence, it is of the same source of experience.

Two guys wake up in the same dream, how do I know it is "one mind" or "same mind"? Because it's the same frikin dream of the same source, what is that source? "mind".

All things exist only of the mind itself
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Kunga
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Kunga »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:See, Buddha here is trying to point out, that all things which apparently have more existence then the things in dreams, or are more "consistent" and "believable" don't actually have any more existence then the things in a dream
Yes, I know ....except he also knows the difference between a dream you're dreaming when you are asleep (the dream lion can't harm you...you wake up & realize it was just a dream), and the breathing Lion in the forest that just crapped on your meditation mat while you were in the hut dreaming....


SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Literally, it's a dream, matter is made of the same stuff the walls in your dream are made of, are you hearing me?
I know what you are saying....but if it were made of the same stuff...I could take some drywall I got from Home Depot, and carry it into my dream, and patch the hole in my head.....lol


SeekerOfWisdom wrote:you are formless,
Yes, in the Ultimate sense . But not conventionally. (form=emptiness/emptiness=form)
Formless & form are dualities....conventional language.
To go beyond....to transend conditioned existence, can only be achived with this conventional-conditioned- body-mind, which Ultimately is non-dual, yet appears as seperate, but it it's empty...of inherent existence. Into the Void.......from which all myraid things appear......
SeekerOfWisdom wrote:What you see, feel, hear, smell, touch is not dependent on your sense organs.
Then why do we have eyes to see, nerves to feel, ears to hear, a nose to smell ?
Seeing is dependant on eyesight & your brain, etc.
SeekerOfWisdom
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Kunga, the only difference is that you are attached to this existence for the time being so it appears more real to you, yes and if a lion started ripping you up you would just wake up somewhere else...that "more real" lion can't hurt you either, it was just a dream after all.

And that's because your existence/experience isn't dependent on brain or eyes, the very idea of those two things are only manifestations and illusions coming from that void which is the common source of all manifestations/illusions.

I have woken up in a dream, and then there is this dream friend telling me it's not a dream. I don't know what else to say besides I can guarantee you that idea you have of a brain inside you is the same kind of idea I have when I see a door in a dream and say, "there must be something behind that door!", there isn't shit until I look, and then there is only the sight of things, no actual thing.

So foolish to be "here" in these experiences of world and attribute this "more reality" than any other kind of experience. (dreams,hallucinations)

All is changing illusion/hallucination, not just some parts, not just "when I'm sleeping".
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote: The Buddha wrote it, I agreed with it, what am I trying to hide? He was right
But why hiding behind Buddha's big ass? Not that I'm against quoting but you seem to want to prove something with it, not just improve.
All things exist only of the mind itself
And does this mind exist of something? All things?
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by SeekerOfWisdom »

Word play, the mind to me is the void of imagination, that unknown nothingness from which forms arise, the seat of sense experience.

Forms don't exist of nothing, otherwise there wouldn't be any forms, they exist of the mind, as appearances, imaginations, illusions, dreams
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Russell Parr
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Russell Parr »

SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Word play, the mind to me is the void of imagination, that unknown nothingness from which forms arise, the seat of sense experience.

Forms don't exist of nothing, otherwise there wouldn't be any forms, they exist of the mind, as appearances, imaginations, illusions, dreams
This is the most sensible thing I've seen you say regarding this "mind." Why you insist on the word "mind" continues to baffle.

Another note, when someone says that "all things are caused" or "all things lack inherent existence," they are not necessarily saying that an outside world absolutely exists from which things come from. To say any 'thing' exists, and thus pertains a description, means that it is necessarily finite. It is not the All. This why your insistence on the word "mind," when you are alluding to the "unknown nothingness," causes much debate amongst you and others who have thought the matter through.

You can only allude to the "unknown nothingness," you cannot speak of it directly, as you know. But knowing this, why would you continue to insist that all things come from a "mind" which is "all that exists"? It is completely unnecessary and causes more problems than it solves.
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Kunga
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Re: Also Anti Atheism- Intelligence/spirituality will prevai

Post by Kunga »

http://lifeasahuman.com/2010/mind-spiri ... s-a-dream/

(I especially liked Ahmeds' reply) :



Upon first reading this, I was tempted to say what a load of New Age baloney but then my Buddhist equanimity kicked in and I did not say it. I do know now why you (Rick) were so reluctant to discuss or debate this with me in person, you had already committed your assertions to print.

“Our life is nothing more than a constant series of responses to random events.” This might be the world according to Rick Bateman but it is not the world according to the Buddha. Such concepts as random events, magic, divine intervention and even luck are not in the least compatible with Buddhist philosophy. The central teaching in Buddhism is the doctrine of Pratityasamutpada or “dependent origination”.

According to the Buddha; “When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases.” Doesn’t sound like this is describing random events; (The Oxford English Dictionary defines “random” as: having no definite aim or purpose; not sent or guided in a particular direction; made, done, occurring without method or conscious choice; haphazard.). I perused numerous Buddhist sources and I could not find any justification for your assertion, in fact quite the opposite; Buddhist philosophy states that any event is the result of previous events and as such can not be random. I spent a whole day trying to be aware of all the events that I was “responding” to and I can say without equivocation that there was not a random event to be seen. I wish there had been one; like Lotto Max drawing my ticket for the 50 million. From the book “How to See Yourself as You Really Are” by H.H. the Dalai Lama; “An event is not under its own power but depends on many present causes and conditions as well as many past causes and conditions.” How is an event meeting those criteria even remotely “random”? I will let Matthieu Ricard have the last word on this (I assume you you know Matthieu Ricard; a Tibetan Buddhist monk since 1972, author of numerous books on Buddhism, and also being the French interpreter for H.H.). From his book “The Quantum and the Lotus”; “Even though phenomena lack reality, they do not happen at random.” and “The world is definitely not random or arbitrary.”

As long as I am on a roll. You say: “It is often heard from Buddhist teachers, that life is nothing but a dream and awakening no different in either case.” What teachers would this be and where do they say it and do they have a foreign accent? I think what the Buddha did say was to regard our life as a dream, not that our life was a dream. He did that to illustrate the illusory nature of everyday phenomena; just as dreams are an illusion so is the stuff of everyday life. Another important tenet of Buddhism is that of “emptiness” or in other words that all phenomena lack inherent existence. Seems that you have taken literally that which was meant to be taken metaphorically.

You say: “While lucid dreaming I would check to see if things had the same physical characteristics as the real world. Of course they did —–.”In the next paragraph you state “——– the physical characteristics of things in the dream are different than the waking state —-.” Which is it then; first you say they are the same and then you say they they are different? How can a dream have physical characteristics anyway? It’s a dream for Christs sake, nothing physical about it (unless you are having a nocturnal emission, I suppose). Step in front of a speeding bus in your dream and you will wake up in the morning no worse for the wear; do the same in real life and you will be fortunate to wake up in a hospital covered by a full body cast and swathed in bandages. The foregoing should pretty well establish which state has physical characteristics and which one does not, would you not agree?

You say: “——-; when you are awake, you are in the same state of consciousness as when you are dreaming.” Really? I think that it is a well established fact that we are not as “conscious” when we are sleeping, dreaming or not, as when we are awake. How many people die in house fires while dreaming away in their beds? Had they been in the “same state of consciousness” as when awake they would have headed for the nearest exit to escape the conflagration, would you not think?

You claim that: “Buddhism teaches that all things are temporary due to their dependence on other things for their existence. This is only part of the truth ——.” Ah, so the Buddha only got things partly right and now Rick Bateman is going to set the Buddha straight. “Not only are all things temporary but their creation, existence and dissolution are all driven by random events.” Talk about hubris!

Ahmed
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