GENIUS FORUMS

Hello Sleeping,

Is proof required for belief or faith?

But you had said something about being required to believe certain things.

History tells us stories that are often like swiss cheese, full of holes... the indescriabable experiences of people's souls is missing or half explained...

I'm afraid that is so, and I don't know where it leaves us. In my opinion, a good bit of the stuff presented as bona fide current knowledge is simply wrong, and sometimes almost entirely wrong. It's quite disconcerting, actually.

Seek and you will find (i.e. seeking God)...

Yes again, but if you think you have found God when you haven't, and your beliefs prevent you from going on to further inquiry, then you're kind of stuck.

Remember, it is VERY tricky here in hell. It's just not all that easy to get out. Traps are everywhere.

Those blessed with the ability to think and reason with great depth tend towards an arrogance in that area and a lack of respect for the unseen... or the improvable (or the distinctly personal)...

Maybe they're like that here on this board. They are quite conventional here.

I've certianly noticed that often the smarter someone thinks they are the less they value emotions or spiritual experiences in general (though this is not necessarily true in all cases of course). Often they devalue even their own experiences if they are unable to explain them while retaining their self image as "intelligent"... I am not immune to what I'm describing...

You really do see quite well how endless the traps are. A trap for every type and personality!

You're right I don't know how many times the beliefs have changed... do you? Is there an exact number?

That's not the point. The point is you should know a little about church history to give you some skepticism about the dogmas.

Is it possible that God's sovereignty has kept the important truths intact?

That's the belief of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and they come closest to living up to that possibility, since they have not changed since the second to fourth century. But when I dug into that period, I found it infested with worms, larvae and bacteria.

And no, God's sovereignty doesn't work that way. Them's fairy tales for babes. If you were wanting some scriptural backup for that opinion, I might could provide it. Can't seem to find my concordance Bible but it's here somewhere.

I believe that to believe it is required that some things go unanswered. I think there will always be a requirement for faith when it comes to God.

Yeah, but it shouldn't require swallowing that which makes one choke, and logical inconsistencies, and spiritual inconsistencies. There's some hard questions in this universe, we don't need to accept nonsense in the name of faith.

I want to know how you feel about learning the level of love and compassion that Jesus taught, and at the same time knowing that many people you currently know will go to hell because they didn't believe something that supposedly God wants them to believe.

How does Christianity stack up against Buddhism when Buddhism teaches compassion and respect for all beings everywhere, and holds up as its model of 'sainthood' the bodhisattva who comes back to earth and works for the liberation of all mankind.

And, you didn't tell me what you make of that passage "He who does not love his brother does not know God."

And no, God's sovereignty doesn't work that way. Them's fairy tales for babes. If you were wanting some scriptural backup for that opinion, I might could provide it. Can't seem to find my concordance Bible but it's here somewhere.

Oh, come on now Iolaus:-), that's a bold statement... claiming to know exactly how God's sovereignty works... isn't that impossible for a human mind? ...especially when you don't really know what truths I'm referring to. I'm referring to the idea that there's enough truth in tact (in various forms - and this is my belief talking) to get you to God through Jesus. If there's not then God (of the bible) is effectively dead right? And I think that's the second time you've mentioned the missing concordence Bible as an invisibe backup to an argument... I'm not a bible scholar so I'd like to see the verses your talking about... I'm a little embarassed to say that I tend to lean towards a more intuitive understanding than a scholarly one when it comes to understanding my beliefs... I plan on evening things out as I move along:-) Though I lack a fear that what I find will make me lose any faith... I fear many things but interestingly, not that... I'm a work in progress.

.............

Yeah, but

There should be more space after a "Yeah"... give it some room to celebrate that blissful state of agreement:-)

I like a good "but"... but jeez.

Anyways, yes of course, the unanswered elements should be either beyond the individual's ability to understand (a basis for personal faith), beyond human understanding (a basis for universal faith) or beyond the individual's realm of access (say if you're marooned on an island, without a bible, until death - no more studying new scriptures for you Gilligan!). And I guess there's a last one that is understandable if not necesarily excusable which is, if a person believes they have sufficiant understanding for belief, so they don't question things anymore and just live their life based on what they know... these peeps make for easy targets for you I know:-)... and yeah for me too, even though I've been on both sides...

...........

it shouldn't require swallowing that which makes one choke

YEAH, BUT Sometimes you need to swallow it to find out if you choke... sure if we had unlimited time here we could go on just sucking on stuff all the time (the downfall of the so called "wise"... God uses fools to shame the wise, if I remember right)

Oh, to be a fool used by God...

:-)

I want to know how you feel about learning the level of love and compassion that Jesus taught, and at the same time knowing that many people you currently know will go to hell because they didn't believe something that supposedly God wants them to believe.

Here it's critically important to note that no human being knows when another is going to hell. We lack the authority to judge on this level. Jesus encouraged us to lead people to Him but we aren't given full responsibility for someone's fate when it comes to hell.

This is one of those really intense areas of faith... Freewill makes another appearance... a Nutcase could perch his/her nutcase self up on a building with a sniper rifle right across from a church and pick off people as they go into to church for the first time to learn about Jesus. Did the Nutcase's bullet send those people to hell because he had the devils timing? I say no. Because I know enough about the Lord to know that that isn't fair or just or loving that they would go to hell...

This IS truly a faith based belief... No one can know the infinite ways God can work in people beyond what we see from the outside... from the outside it can seem as though it's all up to word of mouth... I don't think it's only up to believers to bring people to Christ... even if it often is the result of people in ministry.,, and man, it's often because of misguided folks in the ministry that people turn away from Christ, or get a wrong idea of who Jesus is... I've been embarassed more than once by believers with decent hearts and awful ministry technique! That's actually is something that inspires me... I never want to be that person that tries to speak truth but just ends up just blowing chunks... I pray often that God keeps me on the right path in that area... I need a little nudge every now and then for sure:-)

I do believe that circumstantial (or rather situational/psychological) things can literally put a big ol' wall in the way of someone's ability to believe. I believe the Lord has so much compassion, grace and understanding for this... Even my own feeble capacity for compassion, grace and understanding allow for this... the biblical definition of love is evidence towards God's possible policy for these people... hmm...


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Sleeping to the Noise wrote:

Oh, to be a fool used by God...

I don't think you really know what you are asking.

"To be chosen by God is, speaking merely humanly, unconditionally the most terrible of all the terrible misfortunes which can happen to man. And in every weak moment the chosen one himself thinks so too. Madness is set between him and men; they cannot understand him. Thus he lives in the most agonizing isolation. He endures bestial treatment from men, for when the idea is to be introduced, men become so outraged that the animal side comes to fore.

Literally there is not a single one who can understand him. Nor is he able to help anyone, he knows full well he could never get anyone to relate himself to the idea as he has. No one can rejoice with him. No one can sorrow with him; no one understands how and why he suffers. God is rather the very one who, with the most calculated cruelty, martyrs him when men are unable to do it.

So he lives. As long as he lives, intensively concentrated, he is much too strong for his contemporaries, like a fatal poison. During his life, all those who are called preachers, professors, all those pathbound animal creatures, are the most zealous to put him to death, as with the Saviour of the world. When he is dead, assistant professors, preachers and professors thin him out in their own water, and then in the water of the thousands whom they teach - and the water gives the most refreshing, delicious taste - magnificent!"

- Soren Kierkegaard, 1855

David,

Cool quote...

If this world and it's sometimes misguided judges are all that matter, then yes; To be used by God in the way described would be awful through and through. But there are things above and beyond this world... and there are time frames beyond those of a single lifetime that carry with them the power (given by God) to set meaning to martyrdom that is within comprehension (when it was once beyond comprehension and therefore terrible - yet temporary).

Every inch of my body would rail against this sort of "use"... but I can only hope some part of my soul would rejoice in it... but yeah, ouch... but an ouch for less than 100 years in relation to eternity might be seen differently on the other side... I wouldn't know... I can only guess... Maybe God gives a special ability to cope to those He does use... just maybe... we'd have to ask someone who's been there I suppose...

I have though, been used by God as the fool in a much less terrible/painful way. One of the ways I'm referring to is when my past foolish self is shown to me to have been a fool that I can learn from in the present. For example when I look back and see how hard I tried to achieve something in my life with misguided motivations, and what I thought was a high level of quality, only to find out that I only achieved true connection when I simply let go or even made a mistake that God used beautifully to shine a light on the infinite.

Most simply, the movie Forrest Gump, though obviously dramatized, has quite a few little examples of this kind of thing (uh oh a movie example! am I losing any chance of making a real point! haha) ... when an oversimplified or ignorant approach sometimes leads to real truth, beauty or an amazing outcome... I think you know where I'm going with this...

:-)

Now that's what I call so far out of the ballpark it's really disgusting.

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Hey Leyla,

Dropping in for an arrogant comment with no explanation?

Sounds like you don't know what the ballpark is... in my opinion the so-called "ballpark" is an ever-changing place... depending on perspective... when we're talking about using foolishness to shame the wise, there are countless things that can fall under that heading... and yes, even our own foolishness can be used to teach us lessons.


:-)

Wake up, Zzz-man. That was definitely a FOUL.

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Iolaus wrote: Faith doesn't really exist. There is only knowledge.

I am not sure what you mean here. It appears that there is always a meridian, as it were, separating the known from the unknown, it is a moving line for sure but the line still exists. We could possibly add The Unknowable into the mix. Unfortunately the discussion between religionists and scientists often becomes one of irresistible arrogance meets immovable crustiness.

IMHO infinity in space and time (eternity) means that anything is possible.

In general Jews don't spend much time contemplating the afterlife, you can see it in the burial ritual (simple box or shroud, and quick). As a good Jewish boy, Jesus should have been in the same mold (though no good Jewish mom's gonna give her boy some frilly Helllenized name, use his real name please). However he did spend a lot of time growing up in a place where the whole afterlife thing was vastly important: Egypt. It's worth contemplating the connection here. Christians are obsessive about eternity, Jews are not.

In terms of 'where do emotions come from', I offer this link to a (never-by-anybody-visited) blog I put together a couple of years ago, but at least the material on 'heaven and hell' from a classic buddhist point of view is there at:

http://samsara-nirvana.blogspot.com/200 ... tence.html

There is also a chapter on 'the birth of our world' from the same blog, a rather playful extrapolation of a Tibetan folk tale that itself extrapolates from rather old buddhist-cosmological style contemplations.

Emotions are the gateway to wisdom if wisdom is defined as a state of being (in body and mind which are fundamentally inseparable) in which no further tension of self and other is maintained by the territorial (i.e. holding to a particular place and time as reference point of awareness, otherwise known as 'me' or 'I') mechanism of what is known as the 'samsaric process'.

Emotions are the product of this territorial impulse, and yet at the same time, they are gateways to wisdom because by truly feeling them, one truly connects to the inherent conflict in the samsaric process. It is said that enlightenment is simply seeing non-enlightenment (i.e. confusion/samsara) clearly. From this point of view, confusion is simply the act of not being awake/enlightened, which is why seeing confusion clearly is itself enlightenment. The two are a sort of polarity, or co-emergent non-dual continuum which both creates and destroys what we call 'life' continuously.

Heaven and hell are the extremes of the pleasure-pain continuum which is the one in which territorial beings like ourself find ourselves, the basic notion of pleasure being survival of being without threat of non-existence, i.e. continous 'easy' existence, whereas pain/hell is the threat of non-existence, uneasy survival. Emotion arises in the body, which is the vehicle we use to hold onto individuated existence (one spot in space and time), so when we feel this existence is going well or going badly, emotion is the result. If you pay attention, you can observe that ALL emotions are a tug/play/dynamic of both body and mind.

Anyway... that's my little rant on heaven and hell (aka pleasure and pain).

Dear Sleeping,

that's a bold statement... claiming to know exactly how God's sovereignty works... isn't that impossible for a human mind?

I didn't claim to know how God's sovereignty works. I claimed that it does not work in such a way that for a specific, favored group of people all the conditions and tendencies of our fallen state are held at bay, so that century after century this chosen group will be imperviuos to the wiles of the devil, and their own rotten tendency to lie and grab power.

especially when you don't really know what truths I'm referring to. I'm referring to the idea that there's enough truth in tact (in various forms - and this is my belief talking) to get you to God through Jesus.

Well, that narrows the scope a bit. Nonetheless, that is precisely the area of greatest detriment. Getting to God. But Jesus isn't the problem. He did a good job of making God attractive, and this was his passion. But the bad guys got ahold of the church and monkeyed with scripture, and added a lot of dogma and perhaps Old Testament stuff back in. I think it was a mistake to simply swallow all the scriptures whole and call them equally the word of God. Christians are constantly contorting themselves to accommodate that, when it would be so much easier, more logical to admit the mistake that all these old books and writings might not actually be equally meritorious.

No, I think getting to the Father, which was Jesus' whole mission - has been almost impossible due to these dogmas.

Now, if the fall can be said to have divided the hearts of the people from God, and if you were the devil, wouldn't you be interested in the development of the church and its dogmas? And wouldn't you jump at the chance to dishearten the people through those dogmas, so that the very thing they need - to reconcile with the Father and achieve spiritual greatness - is made unlikely because of what you have done to their MINDS?

If there's not then God (of the bible) is effectively dead right?

God forbid! God is not dead, however dead the church, or the Bible may or may not be. God can only be obscured in the minds of the people. Does the sun shine any differently on a cloudy day? Can the stupidity of men kill God? Who is living - God or the Bible?

And I think that's the second time you've mentioned the missing concordence Bible as an invisibe backup to an argument...

Oh, don't worry so much about my Bible, I see it at the bottom of one of my stacks. I don't remember what I had in mind. Look at the way Jesus thought the people and the spritual leaders had gone astray in his time. Weren't they in possession of the sciptures, and didn't they have the prophets and the law? And didn't Jehovah even talk to people back then? Yet they were full of error. Why should we moderns be any different? don't you realize they were equally sure of their position?

I'm a little embarassed to say that I tend to lean towards a more intuitive understanding than a scholarly one

No reason to be embarrassed.

So how's it going to work for you if people you love here on earth go to hell? Will it mar your eternal happiness? You didn't answer my earlier question - you went on and on about why God is compassionate - but the poor thing really has no choice about sending people to hell. It's some sort of inexorable law that even God can't supervene...and the devil of course is required, he's God's right hand man forever and ever...

What I want to know is: if it is difficult to love your enemies, and if you need the help of the Holy Spirit to get to that point, and if that means you have undergone some sort of transformation - what is the point of all that effort and transformation if your enemies, or at least God's enemies, are to be exiled forever?
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Reed,

Faith doesn't really exist. There is only knowledge.

I am not sure what you mean here. It appears that there is always a meridian, as it were, separating the known from the unknown, it is a moving line for sure but the line still exists. We could possibly add The Unknowable into the mix. Unfortunately the discussion between religionists and scientists often becomes one of irresistible arrogance meets immovable crustiness.

That which is called faith is praised inordinately. Faith, generally, in the existence of God, or in some truths pertaining thereto. Yet another scripture I have looked for but in vain was discussing faith, and it was said, "but knowledge is greater than faith." Of course it is - because knowledge replaces faith. They are the same thing, but knowledge is much stronger.

Faith is praised because it is attainable for many but faith is a diet of crumbs for beggars and beggars accept it.

There would be no reason to praise faith unless that faith were an ability to discern something true. And if we discern something true, then there must be some filament of connection to that true thing. Otherwise our faith would be utter foolishness and a stab in the dark, total hit or miss chance among endless equally unlikely possibilities. What we mean by faith is knowledge that is very weak.

Hey Iolaus (and anyone else),

Faith is praised because it is attainable for many but faith is a diet of crumbs for beggars and beggars accept it.

Faith takes a brand of courage that the more intellectually arrogant can rarely muster. I'm a little embarassed to say I've often lacked it... And I know there are a lot of people more intelligent than I am... I thank God I've had just enough courage to have enough faith to know how tasty and infinitely nourishing those so-called crumbs can be... of course they look like crumbs from so many miles away.

There would be no reason to praise faith unless that faith were an ability to discern something true. And if we discern something true, then there must be some filament of connection to that true thing. Otherwise our faith would be utter foolishness and a stab in the dark, total hit or miss chance among endless equally unlikely possibilities. What we mean by faith is knowledge that is very weak.

So, are you saying here that you don't have any faith? Or that you tried it and it didn't "work" for you? If so what was your faith in?

It's so hard for one to have faith when one has much more respect for knowledge... knowledge will always lead to that edge... that edge where all there are are questions but no answers... if there's a question knowledge can't answer the soul steps in and begins to do it's work, if we let it...

Maybe Faith is like the ears telling the eyes to close to increase it's sense of hearing...

The tricky thing about faith is that it's fruits don't manifest themselves as knowledge per se. Maybe knowledge is stronger than faith but only in that knowledge is the agreed upon currency (or language) of reality from person to person.

Personal experiences of truth are so difficult to prove that they can only become something like knowledge through the agreed upon currency (or language) of faith. This is why sometimes the substitute for faith for the anti-spiritualist (for lack aof a better term) is art. Art in it's various forms is the language of the unseen... art uses knowledge (i.e. physics and technique, the harnessing of the physical world - instruments/the voice) to form a language that can map the unseen world of the heart and soul... emotions and thoughts...

As a side note, I've noticed that often when you mix these two things... faith and music (to choose an art for this example) you sometimes get weaker (less affecting) art. I think that's because when you put faith in a position of expressing itself as pure knowledge (i.e. as an objective truth) something seems a little off... it's faith dressed up as pure knowledge... and when you use an art form like music to express this, it starts to feel a little bit like a half truth... it starts to sound cliche... it loses it's innate mystery... it pretends to be singing of objective knowledge instead of personalized subjective truth... okay so that's my little rant on why it's very hard to make meaningful art as a believer. It's not impossible... but it's easier when honesty about the struggle is more the focus. Especially when the goal is to make art that is more universal, more like a language used to connect to other people regardless of their beliefs... story telling... stories with meaning and purpose...

Okay so back to faith... Faith in Christ changed the trajectory of my life. This turned faith in Jesus into knowledge for me. My own personal history is the knowledge. I know this to be true, but I can't prove it to you in a way that will fully convince you can I? To anyone else this truth may seem weak, but I can assure you it is not weak for me:-). Though it is hard to accept when my faith is weak in the present. It's not an easy road. Actually there are times when it totally sucks... but when my faith is weak my life starts to take on a very 'tit for tat' sort of feel... the gifts and surprises of faith take a backseat to the cold facts of struggling to survive and get what you can out of it all... If all we had were the dogmas then we would be lost. My experiences through faith have strengthened my belief in the Lord more than anything else.

Human beings spend quite a lot of time trying to truly share with each other what it's like to be inside their personal skin. To share personal experiences. Those experiences are true. But you really can't know EXACTLY what it's like for someone else to feel or experience a certain thing, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening to them or that it doesn't matter... okay, now I know this is very shaky ground... science/psychology etc. etc. the definition of mental health... it's interesting to me that we like to argue about reality abd knowledge and faith and all of it, while we're doing with our brains which is one of the least understood hunks of matter around... we just don't know enough about how it works... we lack knowledge about the very thing that percieves knowledge... I'm no expert on the brain (obviously!) but I think that's pretty interesting, funny and humbling.

To rely wholly on knowledge with so many obvious unknowns all around us seems to require a great deal of either faith, patience/detachment, arrogance or just good old fashion ignorant balls:-) I'm not name calling here... I'm a fan of knowledge (though not a knowledge junky)... but I guess part of what defines us is what we do when we get to the edge of knowledge and look over into the unknowable... Do we turn and go home? Do we keep straining our eyes? Or do we search for senses we don't even know we have? Or do we just turn a 180 and start ranting and raving? We can do whatever I guess... and we do.

And, Iolaus, I'm not avoiding answering all of your questions... I just sit down and respond to what I'm inspired to respond to in the moment... I'm assuming you don't care that much about what I say either way... maybe I'm wrong...:-)

I'm being deliberately vulnerable here... mostly because it feels like the most unsafe place to do it... I'm not doing it for my health:-) We all have our reasons... and I'm hoping my reasons become less and less selfish.


:-)

Hello Sleeping,

I guess you find my posts pretty boring, since you rarely respond to them. The bit about faith you completely misundertsood, and I think you didn't read carefully. I am wondering if I should bother, when you seem to have a vat of preprinted responses.

Faith takes a brand of courage that the more intellectually arrogant can rarely muster.

Well, going past the fairy tales into uncharted territory does take courage. And we can call it faith if you like.

So, are you saying here that you don't have any faith? Or that you tried it and it didn't "work" for you? If so what was your faith in?

What I'm saying is that you didn't read what I wrote. I said faith and knowledge are the same thing, but knowledge replaces faith. I'm not talking about academic knowledge, I'm talking about living in the bridal chamber with God.

I said faith and knowledge are the same thing, but knowledge replaces faith.

I think I see what you mean... but I don't think that's exactly true... to me it's more that knowledge justifies faith more than it "replaces" it... but yeah, I see that your definition of knowledge is similar to mine... but it's hard to tell how similar... seems that we are arguing with each other from sort of the same side at times...

Oh, and there's no "vat of preprinted responses"... that's funny... you sound kinda frustrated... are you? You seem to enjoy never agreeing even when you agree... am I wrong? Does it diminish you to agree? Do you enjoy the fact that there's always room (when talking about these sorts of things) to give the "yeah, but..." reply?

Well, going past the fairy tales into uncharted territory does take courage. And we can call it faith if you like.

Please:

Define "fairy tales".

Define "uncharted territory".

Define "faith".

Define your beliefs.

What is it that drives you to converse with me?

I'm guessing you won't respond to these specifically... since I haven't done the same... but, I hope you do.

I realize my tone is kinda argumentative... but it's with a smile... or kind of a smirk...

:-)

Now, if the fall can be said to have divided the hearts of the people from God, and if you were the devil, wouldn't you be interested in the development of the church and its dogmas? And wouldn't you jump at the chance to dishearten the people through those dogmas, so that the very thing they need - to reconcile with the Father and achieve spiritual greatness - is made unlikely because of what you have done to their MINDS?

Yes (in terms of the misleading dogmas)... If I was the devil.

If you were God what would you do?

:-)

OK, for the sake of argument can we refer to "faith" and "belief" as equivalent?

Seems to me there are at least 3 possible states:
1) I do not know
2) I do not know but I believe
3) I know

I do not believe that the sky is blue, I know (within the context of my sensory system, etc. If you wish to argue if the sky is blue or not, please start another thread). I believe there is other intelligent life in the universe, but I do not know. If I know then I have no reason to believe, and I believe because I do not know. Knowledge supersedes belief, just like turning on a light supersedes the dark.

This business of religious faith is a complex matter. In the malleable world of human psychology, what is believed can take on the form and function of actual fact. I do it in business all the time, the Chinese idiom is 无中生有 wu zhong sheng you: to create something from nothing.

And I think Genesis is wrong: it says "in the beginning was the Word..." For a long time I felt that before the Word was the Idea, because everything that exists, existed first as an Idea. Then it occurred to me that before the Idea was the Dream.

p.s. digital binary is often thought to consist of 2 states: on or off, but there are (at least) 5 states:
on
off
off transitioning to on
on transiitioning to off
don't care

Hello Sleeping,

Quote:
I said faith and knowledge are the same thing, but knowledge replaces faith.

I think I see what you mean... but I don't think that's exactly true... to me it's more that knowledge justifies faith more than it "replaces" it...

Yes, I think you are seeing what I mean.

that's funny... you sound kinda frustrated... are you?

I often do find Christians frustrating. It's like when a bird gets caught in the house, desperately seeking the way out of the closed window, and you open the door and the sunlight streams in, but they just won't look up from their frantic search and see it...

You seem to enjoy never agreeing even when you agree... am I wrong? Does it diminish you to agree?

Yes. No.

Define "fairy tales".

Fairy tales are stories. What people tell themselves and pass on. What they accept at surface value and don't examine inwardly. It's what you have to accept when your spiritual faculty is asleep.

Define "uncharted territory".

Going beyond the fairy tales you've been taught. Daring to accept only what you discern for yourself. Learning directly from God and not from priests and preachers.
"Truth is a pathless land." (Krishnamurti)
"I know nothing, and am no one." (Rumi?)

Define "faith".

The inner inkling or intuition of a spiritual dimension, of things unseen by the senses. Faith is trust based on experience. Therefore, faith is experiencing God.

Define your beliefs.

God is everything. The spiritual world is not separate from the material. It is the limitations of our senses which make us imagine that. Existence is the fundamental attribute of God. Love is the divine, permeating energy of everything. Will is the source of duality, love and will uphold the world.

What is it that drives you to converse with me?

You wrote here. You spoke of dogmas that I find detrimental.

Yes (in terms of the misleading dogmas)... If I was the devil.

Did you miss my point?

If you were God what would you do?

The question itself shows a lot of anthropomorphism, which is very common in Judaeo Christian Islamic thought. I don't think of God as a person in that way, and the fact that God doesn't defend himself is a clue that this is so. On the other hand, I prefer to think there is some kind of majestic mind at work in the universe. I just can't figure out how.
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Reed,

OK, for the sake of argument can we refer to "faith" and "belief" as equivalent?

Absolutely not. That would be a travesty. Beliefs are almost entirely nonsense, mentalizations, pacifiers. Faith is "Yea, tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall not fear, for thou art with me."
Faith comes of trust, and trust comes of experience, and experience is a kind of knowledge.

If I know then I have no reason to believe, and I believe because I do not know.

That's right.

And I think Genesis is wrong: it says "in the beginning was the Word..."

No that is the gospel of John. Genesis says, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

For a long time I felt that before the Word was the Idea, because everything that exists, existed first as an Idea.

That may or may not be so, but I think of the Biblical 'Word' in two ways. To create the universe, vibration is needed. So there are an interesting collection of wisdoms from around the world that pertain to the idea that sound is of fundamental importance in the creative process, not necessarily sound audible to ears.

At the same time, in a trinitarian explanation of God, we have God the Source, God the all-pervading life energy, and God the Mind/Organizing principal which would relate to the laws of nature, mathematics, DNA, the elements, and the like. The organizing pricipal of the universe could be called the Word, because words define, as opposed to the undefined void of pure potential.

Iolaus wrote:

OK, for the sake of argument can we refer to "faith" and "belief" as equivalent?

Absolutely not. That would be a travesty. Beliefs are almost entirely nonsense, mentalizations, pacifiers. Faith is "Yea, tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall not fear, for thou art with me."
Faith comes of trust, and trust comes of experience, and experience is a kind of knowledge.

Ok, so faith is action supported by belief? Your original point was that knowledge and faith were the same. Both belief and faith are not required when knowledge is present. For example. I have faith in my wife; this because of her character, past history, the nature of our relationship, etc. In essence I am extrapolating her future behavior based on a lot of factors. But I DO NOT KNOW, and not only that, but I have no way of knowing what the future holds.

Looks like we're getting hung up on semantic distinction. Why slam beliefs? They are cut from the same cloth as faith. I can have faith that if I rip the beating heart out of your chest that the sun will rise tomorrow, an observation supported by many years of experience, at least to a resident of Tenochtitlan circa 1500.

I agree that experience is a kind of knowledge. Faith builds bridges where no other passage is possible. But your point that they are the same is by no means conceded.

Regarding your stroll through the Valley, like Abe Lincoln said, both sides pray to the same God and read the same Bible. So, do you know how we determine whose side God is on?

Hi Reed,

Ok, so faith is action supported by belief? Your original point was that knowledge and faith were the same.

The point I was really trying to make is that faith is based upon something real. The word faith is used to describe acceptance of a set of beliefs, but it is also used to mean a trust that comes of learning to use and allow into one's experience the exercise of the spiritual faculty.

Why slam beliefs? They are cut from the same cloth as faith.

Well I don't think so, and they can be rather opposite. If one has beliefs that God sends people, including some you know, to hell, then this belief actually tends to preclude the kind of opening of the spiritual faculty that is required if one is to have the experience of God.

Regarding your stroll through the Valley, like Abe Lincoln said, both sides pray to the same God and read the same Bible. So, do you know how we determine whose side God is on?

I realize that much of the Old Testament reads like a war manual, but that isn't the valley I was referring to. I was referring to the valley of unknowing and undoing.

God is on everyone's side.

reedsch wrote:As a good Jewish boy, Jesus should have been in the same mold (though no good Jewish mom's gonna give her boy some frilly Helllenized name, use his real name please).

Some say that his name was Yeshua or Yahshua. This would now be Jeshua, or Joshua.

If he was around today, he would be called Josh, as in, "I'm just joshin' ya."

reedsch wrote:OK, for the sake of argument can we refer to "faith" and "belief" as equivalent?

Seems to me there are at least 3 possible states:
1) I do not know
2) I do not know but I believe
3) I know

I do not believe that the sky is blue, I know (within the context of my sensory system, etc. If you wish to argue if the sky is blue or not, please start another thread). I believe there is other intelligent life in the universe, but I do not know. If I know then I have no reason to believe, and I believe because I do not know. Knowledge supersedes belief, just like turning on a light supersedes the dark.

This business of religious faith is a complex matter. In the malleable world of human psychology, what is believed can take on the form and function of actual fact. I do it in business all the time, the Chinese idiom is 无中生有 wu zhong sheng you: to create something from nothing.

And I think Genesis is wrong: it says "in the beginning was the Word..." For a long time I felt that before the Word was the Idea, because everything that exists, existed first as an Idea. Then it occurred to me that before the Idea was the Dream.

p.s. digital binary is often thought to consist of 2 states: on or off, but there are (at least) 5 states:
on
off
off transitioning to on
on transiitioning to off
don't care

You're an idiot. transitions between states are just that: transitions between states. They do not contitute new states.

I often do find Christians frustrating. It's like when a bird gets caught in the house, desperately seeking the way out of the closed window, and you open the door and the sunlight streams in, but they just won't look up from their frantic search and see it...

In your little metaphor, it seems you assume that the bird is on a pointless search (or a fruitless one). And you assume you hold the key (the way you see yourself in comparison to Christians is so arrogant it's almost comical - almost :-). With your limited understanding of me, you can really fall of the deep end and be pretty condescending. Your attitude just might be limiting you more than you know... I only hope that in the privacy of your own mind you are more humble. If you value knowledge as gained through experience (and if you respected others' more) you would be slower to see Christians as poor trapped little birds. Some Christians in spite of certain dogmas and more importantly in spite of sin have indeed seen real and true Light... even when you might not think so:-)

A little metaphor for you:
You can eat nutritious food and it can keep you alive and healthy even if you don't know exactly how it does so and you only know it by name and by it's effectiveness.

I'm searching as much for new perspectives in "talking" with you as I am for building a real picture of who YOU are... the integrated you... not the "you" that this forum allows you to create (if you desire to create a false one to any degree). How has all your thoughts/opinions/beliefs effected your daily life? It's almost as if you've created your own religion based on your search and the sum of it's parts... Is it working for you?

Quote:
If you were God what would you do?

The question itself shows a lot of anthropomorphism, which is very common in Judaeo Christian Islamic thought. I don't think of God as a person in that way, and the fact that God doesn't defend himself is a clue that this is so. On the other hand, I prefer to think there is some kind of majestic mind at work in the universe. I just can't figure out how.

Hmm... well my question for you was hypothetical (and based on a Christian "man made in the image of God" sort of way)... I'll rephrase:

If there is "some kind of majesctic mind at work in the universe" then how (if you were that majestic mind) would you try to make yourself known to mankind?

When you say you just can't figure out how, does that mean you feel you will never figure it out? Or do you accept that you may never know? Do you think it matters? Do you think it's important to decide what you believe (in this area)? Does impending death have any affect on your search or your beliefs? For that matter do you think you need to figure anything out before you die? I know, too many questions:-)

I've resorted to questions with you because I get the sense that you enjoy having answers or responses that sound good and yet reveal very little about your own beliefs or that don't show very much in the way of human frailty...

What is your personal reason for writing on this forum?

Are you looking for something?
Hoping to teach others?
Prove others wrong?
Or are you just exercising?
Would you rather I stop making this personal in this way?

:-)