Householders

Kelly Jones · Post by **Kelly Jones** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:15 am

My mistake. So, no, I don't myself think that owning anything, a house or anything else, can enlighten a person about what's ultimately real.

Ownership itself is problematic, because we don't ultimately possess or lose anything. When we're born, do we own our bodies? No. Do we own the air we breathe? No. Similarly, we don't ever lose anything in life or death.

(So, not owning a house, and renting or whatnot, is also immaterial....)

jackl666 · Post by **jackl666** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:18 am

indeed

Alex Jacob · Post by **Alex Jacob** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:34 pm

I've come under certain pressures to complete certain tasks and can't comment on the previous posts...por ahora.

Except this one:

"They work on the hypothesis that reasoning carried to its limits would reveal the mysterious "that-which-provides-life" (god) and our inner life (the mind), and "our coming out and going into existence" (life and death). Their supposition is virtually identical to Jnana yoga that reason carried to extreme leaves nothing mysterious. That is it either shows the question as nonsensical, or provides the answer."

There are some problems with this. Jnana Yoga exists within a context, and the subtext of that context is theistic, very much so. There is a certain unity in the nature of realization on the part of the different branches of yoga, and no Jnani that I am aware of would ever or has ever reverted to such materialistic and atheistic-sounding doctrines as the QRS.

You are also, I think, mostly wrong when you suppose that Jnana leads one to 'nothing mysterious'. It rather leads to some level of experience with the Self that, in Indian terms, is described as overwhelming, potent. The way I look at it, any realization of self, even if watered-down, is a real event for the individual, and within the Indian school of thinking there are many different means by which the self can be experienced or approached.

Yoga is a tolerant, open system of thinking, perceiving and worshipping, whereas the QRS system is abnormally limiting.

QRS has invented its own processes, its own definitions, its preferences, aversions, its prejudices. It is jnana of a certain form, true, but that form is of a lower order.

Kelly Jones · Post by **Kelly Jones** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:54 pm

Alex, can you include the name of the person you're quoting ?

Incidentally, Jesus, who referred to 'my Father in Heaven' and 'the Lord God', was an atheist and materialist.

I guess you'd call his view that "Lo, I am with you Always" as abnormally limiting!

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:51 pm

Alex Jacob wrote:QRS has invented its own processes, its own definitions, its preferences, aversions, its prejudices. It is jnana of a certain form, true, but that form is of a lower order.

Not to worry Alex, maybe in a few hundred or thousand years the QSR religion will have amassed enough history, followers, writings, authority, traditions and "context" for you to give it your stamp of approval. It might even be "rich" enough for you to lose yourself in for a lifetime like Christianity or Judaism. And if it's not you could always construct your own bastardized hybrid of it to make it even more convoluted and complex, maybe Judaeo-Shamanic-QSR.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:06 pm

Kelly Jones wrote:Incidentally, Jesus, who referred to 'my Father in Heaven' and 'the Lord God', was an atheist and materialist.

What evidence do you have for that? From what I've seen just about every scholar would claim otherwise.

Shahrazad · Post by **Shahrazad** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:35 pm

Not to worry Alex, maybe in a few hundred or thousand years the QSR religion will have amassed enough history, followers, writings, authority, traditions and "context" for you to give it your stamp of approval.

Hilarious.

Alex Jacob · Post by **Alex Jacob** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:02 am

Jason, your shrewd and merciless attacks against my person are duly noted. Holy Jesus did that hurt! But none of this matters with me now, because I have been to the mountain-top and I have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.

'Shamanism' as I have used the term (and twisted it to my own purposes) is a way of referring to the possibility of experience of something, a way to interact with it (an idea, an image, a symbol, a place in nature, etc) in a way that by-passes the mental processes. This potential, or this fact, always exists for us. So, by definition, one could allow for and have a more immediate relationship with, say, Jesus through this avenue. I know that you wanted to be mocking of course, and here I am replying seriously to you, but the subjective, interior, receptive, intuitive relationship to life and spirit is, it seems to me, very important. If I stressed it, it is because this forum and the methods it proposes are so cerebral.

Kelly-kins,

I know, I know so well, how you have interpreted Jesus, I have seen all the quotes that you-all trot-out that you suppose supports this claim. That you select a group of quotes, and simply refuse to take into account so many others, and of course the context, gives more indications about the way your minds work. You-all have developed a system of thought in which you construct a house for your personalities to live out their days. I don't really have a mission to convince you of anything in particular, say like the existence of God which is impossible, but I do enjoy pointing to this core fact about y'all, which I see as a defect. It has to do with a whole part of yourselves that, for reasons I don't understand quite yet, seems to have been 'carved out'.

brokenhead · Post by **brokenhead** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:32 am

Kelly Jones wrote:My mistake. So, no, I don't myself think that owning anything, a house or anything else, can enlighten a person about what's ultimately real.

Ownership itself is problematic, because we don't ultimately possess or lose anything. When we're born, do we own our bodies? No. Do we own the air we breathe? No. Similarly, we don't ever lose anything in life or death.

(So, not owning a house, and renting or whatnot, is also immaterial....)

"You ain't born with nothing,
and better off that way,
Soon as you got something they send
Someone to try and take it away"

Carl G · Post by **Carl G** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:54 am

"You ain't born with nothing,
and better off that way,
Soon as you got something they send
Someone to try and take it away"

Brokenhead, apparently bored on a Saturday morning and posting just for the fuck of it.

Kelly Jones · Post by **Kelly Jones** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:39 pm

Jason wrote:
Kelly Jones wrote:Incidentally, Jesus, who referred to 'my Father in Heaven' and 'the Lord God', was an atheist and materialist.
What evidence do you have for that? From what I've seen just about every scholar would claim otherwise.

The following quotes show Jesus' views on God. They are from the New International Version. I found them by doing a search for the word 'God'. For Alex: I only left out one or two of the results, as they were a bit weak.

These show Jesus was quite the Anti-Christ, with no image or being in mind when speaking of God.

Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

-

Matthew 4:4
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' [ Deut. 8:3] "

-

Matthew 4:7
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' [ Deut. 6:16] "

-

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' [ Deut. 6:13] "

-

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

Purity in heart is to love God only.

-

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Peace-making is the quelling of all agitation, rather than suppression of it.

-

Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Money being any thing to which attachment is had.

-

Matthew 6:30
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

-

Matthew 12:4
He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.

-

Matthew 12:28
But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Demons are lies that create agitation and fear.

-

Matthew 15:3
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

-

Matthew 16:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

-

Matthew 19:6
So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Referring to a more profound marriage.

-

Matthew 19:24
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

-

Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

-

Matthew 21:32
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

-

Matthew 22:16
They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are.

-

Matthew 22:31-32
But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you,
'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' [ Exodus 3:6] ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

-

Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' [ Deut. 6:5]

.

Kelly Jones · Post by **Kelly Jones** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:30 pm

Jason,

Forgot to add: the quotes are from Matthew's gospel only because they came first, and I wasn't going to quote the whole lot. But if you wish...

The bit of Judas's gospel that we have seems interesting. But the story goes that it was in such poor condition when translated from the originals, that much of it couldn't be read.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:41 pm

Ok joke's up, you fooled me. You can't seriously believe that any of those quotes support your claims.

Kelly Jones · Post by **Kelly Jones** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:48 pm

Yes, I consciously sifted through each one.

Interesting isn't it, that we have different views of their meanings....

brokenhead · Post by **brokenhead** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:00 pm

Kelly Jones wrote:Yes, I consciously sifted through each one.

Interesting isn't it, that we have different views of their meanings....

You consciously sifted through each one and these are the quotes that most support your view that Jesus was a materialist and had no particular image in mind when he used the term "God." I am no fundamentalist, but even I can't follow your logic on this one.

Kelly Jones · Post by **Kelly Jones** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:20 pm

By materialist, I just mean Jesus wasn't looking for a pie in the sky. He saw God as everything. He was a metaphysicist, seeing the deeper reality of all physicality.

Pick any of the quotes, and you will be able to see that realisation alive in the words.

Iolaus · Post by **Iolaus** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:43 pm

I don't really have a mission to convince you of anything in particular, say like the existence of God which is impossible,

It would be great if we could just get them laid...

brokenhead · Post by **brokenhead** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:48 pm

Kelly Jones wrote:By materialist, I just mean Jesus wasn't looking for a pie in the sky. He saw God as everything. He was a metaphysicist, seeing the deeper reality of all physicality.

Pick any of the quotes, and you will be able to see that realisation alive in the words.

John 8:23
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:52 pm

Kelly Jones wrote:Matthew 4:7
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' [ Deut. 6:16]

This supposedly materialist Jesus sounds like he was against science.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:56 pm

Iolaus wrote:
I don't really have a mission to convince you of anything in particular, say like the existence of God which is impossible,
It would be great if we could just get them laid...

Well, you've got a vagina, perhaps you could use it to accomplish this task.

Kelly Jones · Post by **Kelly Jones** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:15 pm

brokenhead wrote:
Kelly Jones wrote:By materialist, I just mean Jesus wasn't looking for a pie in the sky. He saw God as everything. He was a metaphysicist, seeing the deeper reality of all physicality.

Pick any of the quotes, and you will be able to see that realisation alive in the words.
John 8:23
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

Most frequently, Jesus tended to use the word 'world' to mean 'where deluded humans live' (or what's translated to mean world).

John 9:5
"While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

He comes into the world, as a great prophet. He is entering into the world as its saviour, much as Zarathustra enters the world of men to be their Great Star:

When Zarathustra was thirty years old, he left his home and the lake of his home, and went into the mountains. There he enjoyed his spirit and solitude, and for ten years did not weary of it. But at last his heart changed,--and rising one morning with the rosy dawn, he went before the sun, and spake thus unto it:

Thou great star! What would be thy happiness if thou hadst not those for whom thou shinest!

For ten years hast thou climbed hither unto my cave: thou wouldst have wearied of thy light and of the journey, had it not been for me, mine eagle, and my serpent.

But we awaited thee every morning, took from thee thine overflow and blessed thee for it.

Lo! I am weary of my wisdom, like the bee that hath gathered too much honey; I need hands outstretched to take it.

I would fain bestow and distribute, until the wise have once more become joyous in their folly, and the poor happy in their riches.

Therefore must I descend into the deep: as thou doest in the evening, when thou goest behind the sea, and givest light also to the nether-world, thou exuberant star!

Like thee must I GO DOWN, as men say, to whom I shall descend.

Bless me, then, thou tranquil eye, that canst behold even the greatest happiness without envy!

Bless the cup that is about to overflow, that the water may flow golden out of it, and carry everywhere the reflection of thy bliss!

Lo! This cup is again going to empty itself, and Zarathustra is again going to be a man.

Thus began Zarathustra's down-going.

They are spiritually distinct perspectives of the same world.

Kelly Jones · Post by **Kelly Jones** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:18 pm

Jason wrote:
Kelly Jones wrote:Matthew 4:7
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' [ Deut. 6:16]
This supposedly materialist Jesus sounds like he was against science.

A true scientist is also a materialist (seeing the Infinite in every observation).

GENIUS FORUMS

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