To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
mansman
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by mansman »

The desire for sex is insatiable, because it's psychological, not physical. You (generic) won't satiate lust by giving into it, once you have a taste for it.
No??
then how has ANYONE, the buddha, Jehu, become a celibate?
ask the geniuses i think they agree that becoming a sage (instead of chasing after sex) will do away with the desire and lust. Why try to get your fill and get satiated to resolve lust, when you can instead study to become and becoming a sage perfectly solves the hunger problem? Your curiosity will fade away just like any thing else you wanted to do as a child but later lost the strong interest of that thing.
It's funny you would say that, since sex is a lot harder for females than it is for males. There are a few females who find getting lots of unattached sex easy, but those are a small minority.
If it were truly harder for females to get sex than the males (ok, we not talking post-menopause are we! these females are not even supposed to chase men anymore, so not fair to compare in those late years) then let me ask hypotetical question-- If one of these genders had it almost completely in scope of his power to determine how atractive he or she is to opposite sex, which gender would you expect that to be?
(answer from Hypo joe below)
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Answer, Hypojoe: "Humm.....Why if its harder for female to get the sex, then I would think the answer to question is, MALES! because if women had it in their power to make or keep themself attractive to men then it would be CRAZY to believe they are also ones who have harder time to get laid."

BUT! Guess what joe, women ARE THE ONES and not males, because the man has to achieve a great deal (besides some good luck) to get the women he likes to screw, whereas the woman only needs to eat healthy like a plant or field doe and keep her ass in shape to stiffen the penis of her choice.
haha
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turbatio
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by turbatio »

I've sent a few of you (shahrazad, jason, alex, and skipair) pm's with "fat chick's" (she isn't really imo) latest reply. I'm seeking advice as to how to respond.
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Jason
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Jason »

Alex Jacob wrote:OR, should he give up the whole shebang and become a sage?
Interesting word choice.
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Alex Jacob
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Alex Jacob »

Shebang...
_______________________________________________________________

Mikiel, I am happy that you have begun to show an interest in my lustrous personage. There is so much that---you understand of course---I cannot reveal, yet when from my elevated position I talk down to you-all, or rain down upon you little tid-bits of goodness, I do not ever do so from an internal position of arrogance. It is true that like a rich, foliated glade I am filled to the brim with exotic treats, wise words, ornery snippets, unorthodox harmless blasphemies, nevertheless all is calculated down to the last iota. I exist in a state of supernal peace, I never get upset with any of you, I put up with all idiocies that come my way, and still frolic about like a chirpy magpie, and then in the final moment utter what can only be called impromptu Sacred Scripture...

I would be more than happy to continue to instruct you, yet---and you know this just as well as I do---you are not quite ready for the instruction I have planned. No man knoweth the hour of his anointing, but if you keep on as humbly and subserviently as you have been, for you I feel the day is near.

I only ask that you continue to give attention to spelling and punctuation, proper spacing, excessive ellipses, catastrophic use of quotations, etc.

And I do not at all, even minimally, mind being 'slapped' by your fine person. I only ask that you'd slap a bit harder...

PS: Did you get any part of the Ange song? Shall I translate it?

I send my blessings.

Les longues nuits d'Isaac
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Jason
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Jason »

Alex Jacob wrote:
Jason wrote:
Alex Jacob wrote:OR, should he give up the whole shebang and become a sage?
Interesting word choice.
Shebang...
She

Bang
HYPNOSIS

Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by HYPNOSIS »

turbatio wrote:Also, does it take effort to stay enlightened?
Enlightenment is situated there-in the non-existent.

Just as a bird fills the air and the tiger preys. A knowledgeable man can't realize he's enlightened, he struggles for ages for Enlightenment. I found it in a cup of water! H2O is an element that has further enlightening cycles until the whole of the earth is filled with your blood!
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Jason
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Jason »

Alex Jacob wrote:
Jason wrote:Contact with women for the purpose of fostering a more conventional romantic/sexual relationship wasn't necessarily the problem as I saw it, although now Turbatio is saying he thinks a girlfriend for sex might be preferable.
Well, here's the deal. I start with the premise that prostitution arises from sick social circumstances, and I refer to Colombian society, where I have lived and may still again. Drugs, crime, lack of opportunities, unjust social circumstances, the failure to respond to the call of justice, truth, love, kindness, turning sexuality into a commodity, disrespecting women at the most fundamental level----these things produce a social circumstance where young women resort to prostitution.
In Australia prostitution is legal and regulated, and it's not always associated with those negative things you list. I don't view paying for sex as being inherently disrespectful to women and I don't have any particular disrespect for prostitutes. Of course, if a prostitute only chooses the job out of utter desperation it may not be a great thing, but many choices made out of desperation aren't great. That doesn't mean that the choice is always a bad one. I would only work in a butcher shop out of desperation, that doesn't mean someone else couldn't choose it out of love for the job.

It has long seemed to me that sex has been undeservedly singled-out by society for much special, unfair and irrational treatment. There are so many issues and neurosis and unhealthy psychological projections and baggage and historical associations with dirtiness and loss of innocence and defilement and a whole host of other really negative ideas.

Perhaps societies and religions have always desperately tried to control sex, and one of the best ways to do that was to create boogiemen to scare people away from it. "We can't support the huge number of kids that would come from you freely expressing your natural tendencies" just wasn't sufficient to suppress such behaviour.

Sex just physically feels so damn good, everything else is piled on top of this basic reality.
Alex Jacob wrote:In our porn-culture we essentially are training men and women to feel little aversion to this sort of imagery, and to desire sex of that sort. Sexuality is a huge subliminal motivator, and when you associate sex with certain messages, those messages by-pass the discriminating mind and find a way in. This is of course a separate conversation, but it would be a good one.

If one is clear about psychology, I am saying, it is not at all difficult to intuitively guess that men, despite the intensity of the sexual drive, seek more than just someone to fuck.
Psychology is rarely clear. And whose psychology? Yours? Different people might have different drives and needs. And a person may be capable of experiencing the desire to just fuck on some occasions and then a desire for more interpersonal connection on other occasions.

Assuming, for arguments sake, that men always do want more than just to fuck, that doesn't mean that just fucking isn't healthy or worthwhile. Humans always want more. Pure sex is good. Sex with love is better. Sex with love and a mansion is even better still. That doesn't mean you have to wait for the mansion before having sex or love.
Alex Jacob wrote:This is also a complex subject and would require investigation. When you see what that sort of porn-sex does to men after so many years of it, I would suggest that no one should be recommended to devote themselves to it. What is extruded from the other end is something ugly and debased. You could refer, just for an example, to the writing of Mantac Chia on the (supposedly) Taoist teachings about male and female sexuality. It is terribly easy to squander sexual energy and to use it inappropriately. I don't want to make it sound like I am a Puritan or anything. It can also be engaged in in a way that is beneficial to the individual---promoting health and well-being, healing, relaxation, etc. But pornographic sex is not a part of that. I say that it is destructive, so why not avoid it? Instead, if you are wanting to have sex find a way to do it honestly, carefully, thoughtfully, constructively, and with affection. If you can find a solid argument against this common-sense approach, I'd like to hear it.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "porn-sex." Personally, I would like to promote care, respect and empathy for other feeling/conscious beings no matter what type of interaction is occurring. Hence my vegetarianism, amongst other things. Having sex with the main motivation being sensual pleasure absolutely doesn't rule out caring for, respecting and having empathy for the other person as far as I'm concerned. But having care, respect and empathy for a person also doesn't mean one must form a deep interpersonal bond with them. I might risk my life to help a stranger but never see, or even want to see them again or become friends with them. Do you eat meat Alex?
Alex Jacob wrote:
Jason wrote:How many young men are not almost constantly sexually frustrated to some degree? Many of us would need a full-time rotating harem to completely satisfy our hunger for sex. Your "dozens" wouldn't fill more than a few months at best, and then only assuming that all were willing and able when you were.
When I said 'dozens' what I meant was women that I dated over the years, not necessarily one night stands. What I meant was dozens of girl-friends and they were mostly all met with the initial 'hi'. Nothing complex, in fact all very easy.
And during that time were you always completely sexually satisfied? Did your eyes never lustfully wander to some random attractive woman you saw walking by? I would find it difficult to believe that they didn't.

Alex Jacob wrote:Aldous Huxley wrote something to the effect that 'intellectual life' arises when one is not exclusively satisfied with sex. I assume that most men here have real interests and real tasks that occupy their time?
I know that I certainly do, and have had long before my sex drive became obvious. But how about the argument that if sexual desires were fully satisfied one's interests and tasks could get even more focus and energy? It's harder to concentrate when you're hungry.

Alex Jacob wrote:The times that you don't have someone for pure sex are times to devote yourself to other pursuits. It's called 'sublimation' and according to the Freudian school, is the basis of cultural accomplishment. If a man is so weak, so female, that his sex-desire controls him, then he needs to deal with that. I had then---and still have now---the same basic sexual drive, but if that were all that were going on in my life I'd feel worried. If you look at men in their 40s and 50s who did not have self-control, what you see is something disgusting and even repellent. What one sacrifices in the fire of youth, you do not get to recover. Sexual energy is like money in the bank: do not spend it as if the supply is unlimited. (Refer to Mantac Chia and what he writes about 'cultivating' and not squandering sexual enegy. A man cannot waste his energy in too frequent orgasm, and the 'petit mort' is a thing to avoid like the plague).
I don't know that lack of self-control is the actual problem with such men. It's hard for me to believe that other life interests and passions are all dependent for their existence upon limiting and controlling sex. As for the sublimation/Daoist/orgone/Reichian sexual energy type of thing it's all pretty much baseless speculation as best as I've been able to tell so far. There is no mainstream scientific research backing it either. I have also personally experimented with abstaining from orgasm for long periods and keeping logs of my subjective experience, feelings and moods etc and I didn't find any strong correlations.

Alex Jacob wrote:You use the term 'manipulation and deceit' and I would rather, in the context of dating, the male-female dynamic, use the word 'game'. It is indeed a game. But, the more that each person has nourished the spiritual part of themselves, the better the game can be played. It can be a reasonably equitable game.
Dating is a rather recent invention. Different cultures and times have varied greatly in their rituals and ideas about sex, courtship and relationships. If humans have tendencies and natures which at least partly originate from places that are prior to and deeper than the cultures that they are exposed to, then how are you to choose what particular customs are nourishing and what customs are damaging? Are arranged marriages nourishing? What about harems? Are we to be hostages to the whims of particular culture and era? Would you advocate female circumcision and throwing widows on funeral pyres too?

If humans have some universal inherent sexual needs, and they are ideally satisfied in specific ways, it might be very difficult to expose them from under all the crap shoveled onto them from millenia of religion and culture.

Tradition seems to play an important role in your ideas. No doubt there's always the danger of unintended consequences when tinkering with something as complex as human relationships and psychology. If it aint broke don't fix it. Traditions it could be argued, survive because they have proven themselves over many generation to be viable. But is mere survival of tradition enough? Is it good enough that a set of ideas survive? All that means is that the ideas were capable of being effectively spread. That's a pretty low yardstick to go by as far as I'm concerned. I'd hope that we could use consciousness, intelligence and discrimination to improve upon things.

Alex Jacob wrote:
Jason wrote:An honest conversation, with the knowledge that you really want sex, wouldn't deviate much from "Hi. I find you attractive, would you like to have sex with me?
Well, yes, but don't outrightly say that. If there is an essential rapport, and if you already know that the sexual thing will be forthcoming, then you can take that route.
I wasn't giving advice. But in a not too distant past era, instead of saing "Hi" and finding rapport, you might be advising Turbatio on what to say to the girl's Father instead. Do you reckon you'd then be associating that with spirituality too?
Alex Jacob wrote:Sometimes that approach is perfect, but more often than not, no. Skipair seems to get it and writes about it in his posts. For example, the girl who gets miffed when you devote too much attention to her 'head' (her personality, her persona) and do not give sufficient attention to the real her---her tits, her pelvis. 'Why are you not paying attention to me?!' True, looked at in that way (the truthful way) it does tend to give one reservations about the whole undertaking, but in truth---especially in one's twenties---it is not so bad a game to play. There are literally millions of women willing to play, of that I am 100% certain.
But is it worth playing? Is there something better? Is the game fundamentally flawed, sick, twisted and unhealthy for us as humans?
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Alex Jacob
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Alex Jacob »

I didn't know that Australia had legalized prostitution. I looked at a few sites and got a sense of the situation. Here is an argument against the legalization of prostitution which also makes some good points.

I'm envisioning the round-the-dinner-table conversations with a visiting relative, where the boys are asked what they want to be when they grow up, and they tell, and then it comes around to the girls and one wants to be a dentist, the other a teacher, and the third---always the iconoclast---declares that her future dream is to be a sex-worker.

If one looks at the pornographic world---and I personally have, pretty thoroughly---I don't think there is anything at all desirable or admirable in it. I know that there are feminists who support the lifting of all social controls respecting women's sexuality, advocate selling of sex if one wants to. My mother was a feminist in the SF Bay Area back in the late 70s and 80s so I grew up aware of these positions. I know it is not a thing that I have power to stop, and so I don't have any reason to make a big deal out of it, but I am opposed to the encouragement of prostitution, the encouragement of pornographic imagery, the encouragement and the trafficking in adolescent and teen sexual imagery. I see it as a perhaps-inevitable but as a destructive trend. Yet, it has also occurred to me that, like so many things in history, what is a negative thing at one time has an unlikely beneficial effect that no one could even have predicted.

"Perhaps societies and religions have always desperately tried to control sex, and one of the best ways to do that was to create boogiemen to scare people away from it. "We can't support the huge number of kids that would come from you freely expressing your natural tendencies" just wasn't sufficient to suppress such behaviour."

I see the liberalization of sex as an inevitable thing for modernity to deal with, and we are now in the throes of it, but I do think, personally, that there must exist a sane and balanced way to introduce kids to sex, and a sane and balanced way to conduct oneself sexually. So, yes, I do believe in a kind of 'norm', but I also see that I have no necessary right to enforce my norm over someone else's. I think that we only get to see the ramifications of the choices we make when those choices have played themselves out.

The most interesting thing to do, however, instead of looking to the past or even describing the present, is to look to the future and imagine where things are going. If the developing sex-industry is an indicator, it will be toward a global sex-industry with millions and billions of dollars at stake. It will likely involve trafficking in human beings, sexual exploitation of minors, an open catering to any sort of sexual appetite, and a shift in the way that people even think about these things. It is in the exaggeration that one sees the strange levels it could all go to.

"Sex just physically feels so damn good, everything else is piled on top of this basic reality."

While I certainly agree that sex feels good, I have always been keenly aware that 'pleasure' and hedonism is a very complex area. I am not sure it does always feel good, and I think that obsessive pleasures can often feel quite bad. Even Stoic and Epicurean philosophy seems to take as granted that too much indulgence in sex is weakening to a man. Why do they say that? What is their concern? Drugs also feel 'damn good' but one quickly learns that one can sacrifice far too much to that pleasure, and that they can destroy you. I don't in fact think it is that much different with sex, but it is also a bad thing to repress it, or to turn it into the cause of guilt. There is a peculiar and difficult line demarcation line that has to be managed, and so much of this depends on one's world-view, the nature of one's religious views, so many things.

"Psychology is rarely clear. And whose psychology? Yours? Different people might have different drives and needs."

Clearly they do. And we live in an era where all the old control systems are being taken down, and the appetite of the 'demos' will drive them to all sorts of new pleasures. When you get business interests involved, and construct new 'value-systems' (or anti-value systems), you can get people to partake of almost unimagined pleasures. Sex seems like a pretty basic one and a very powerful one.

'Porn-sex' is all the imagery that we are exposed to that comes from the porn industry. It is not images of 'loving' sexuality, and it is not erotica, it is outrightly pornographic. I don't think this needs to be explained too much. If you were to ask my personal opinion, where I can stand in judgment of anything I want, I don't think this is good imagery, not to inculcate the masses with. Not to become ubiquitous. One is constantly exposed, in all media, to overtly sexual imagery and there is a 'creep' into mainstream imagery the look and feel of pornography. I personally detest it, but I am not in any sense a Puritan, and I never was. But I always had certain idealism about sex and sexuality, I always tried to conduct it within 'reasonable limits'.

"And during that time were you always completely sexually satisfied? Did your eyes never lustfully wander to some random attractive woman you saw walking by? I would find it difficult to believe that they didn't."

I am not the one to talk here. No relationship I have ever had has lasted more than three years. You are asking me personally about myself, so I can say that I have a sort of 'conscience', if you will, that acts as a control against openly lusting for another when I am with with someone. It seemed dirty and cheap to me, so to feel good I didn't do it. I think that we get some of these controls, as ethics, from our parents.

"But how about the argument that if sexual desires were fully satisfied one's interests and tasks could get even more focus and energy? It's harder to concentrate when you're hungry."

I guess it really depends on what you do, and how society is ordered. In a culture that is heading toward a very middle-ground denominator, something very average, mediocre, run-of-the-mill, I suppose that all pleasures that are part of 'well-being' will become available, and all for pennies a month. You'll have your satellite teevee service that you cannot live without, your connected gizmos, and all the entertainments and services that you need for sexual stimulation and satisfaction, special ones for the boys and special ones for the girls.

Obviously, one could mention the Brave New World vision of things, and there is a great deal of truth in it, and it most certainly CAN be applied to our present. There will come a time---it has in fact come---when this average being will represent a kind of ideal being, and this being will no longer care to recognize nor be capable of recognizing the higher accomplishments, the higher values. They will therefor simply become irrelevant, as they are.

"Tradition seems to play an important role in your ideas. No doubt there's always the danger of unintended consequences when tinkering with something as complex as human relationships and psychology."

It is a part of my ideas because I have sometimes gone to the limits of non-traditionalism. I am a man of my generation after all (born in 1962). A huge part of the cultural process was to break loose from social controls, and to explore new areas. In my case, I am very aware that I am exploring traditional but not because I want merely to take up residence in them, as a safe refuge, but because I respect the sobriety of the individuals who created those values.
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Shahrazad
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Shahrazad »

Alex,

By telling Turbatio to get a relationship with a woman, when all he wants is sex, you are giving him bad advice. You assume all men want more than sex, and this is not true. Most men would go for sex without strings of any kind if that was an easy option. If you don't believe me, just go ahead and set up a poll. And as an experienced lover, you know that a man is hard-pressed to get casual sex from a regular woman without deceiving her. So, his best, more honest option is still the prostitute. Now it may just be a matter of finding one he can afford.

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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Leyla Shen »

I swear to fucking God, this whole subject of sex and love, no matter from what viewpoint, is like utter gibberish to me at the moment.

I can't make ANY sense out of it.

Seriously. What a head-fuck.
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Leyla Shen
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Now, just as an example and not to single you out, Shah:
You assume all men want more than sex, and this is not true. Most men would go for sex without strings of any kind if that was an easy option.
Who c-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-res, you know????
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!

Post by Leyla Shen »

Turbatio, do us all a favour and JUST GO AND GET LAID, WILL YA.
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Tomas
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Tomas »

Leyla Shen wrote:I swear to fucking God, this whole subject of sex and love, no matter from what viewpoint, is like utter gibberish to me at the moment.

I can't make ANY sense out of it.

Seriously. What a head-fuck.

You can't make sense of it ... because!

You are not American :-)



Peace Up



.
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Leyla Shen »

PS: if you're young, try an older woman.
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Well, Tomas, that's certainly a different take to me not understanding it because I'm a woman...
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Shahrazad »

I actually can discuss sex without problems, but discussing love gives me nausea. No, just hearing other people discuss it gives me nausea.
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Tomas »

Leyla Shen wrote:Well, Tomas, that's certainly a different take to me not understanding it because I'm a woman...
I always figured you were ... all ... woman :-)

My take on it is this young fellow (the virgin, so he says) has been cloistered by his parents and wants to "blossom out" and blow his spores to the wind and land where they may.

No problem-o with me if his spores blow on an older woman. Just be certain it is his choice.

This whole thing with him searching online for his "babe" seems a bit distorted to my way of thinking. A town of 5,000 has adequate supply of dating, I would think. Going online is developmentally disabled, unless he has no arms and legs and taps out with a pencil :-)

...........


Mind you, I (we) have three grown daughters and we raised them to take care of themselves first. There is so much out there besides sex at twenty or whatever age.

The boys knocking on the door asking for a date with a daughter had to pass muster with me, first. It wasn't that they started honking outside, revving the engine etc. they showed at the door... (no booze on the breath, no cigarette smoke, no dark-circled eyes, no piercings, no tattoos, no pants down to their knees, etc)

We have two sets of twins. Both boy-girl sets.

The girls are well-adjusted, two have lifelong boyfriends, with kids.

The third is still a virgin and in no hurry age-19.

Hey, I didn't start boinking my girlfriend (of 40-plus years) till I got her daddy's permission. Call it old-fashioned but it seemed the right thing to do.

Of our three grown sons, two have steady lifelong girlfriends with kids.

The third, is not adjusting well, so we fronted him some money for an apartment for two years. He has a couple part-time jobs and understands he can only come back home to live if he becomes an invalid, or something to that effect :-/

Our youngest came late in our life and is now age-10.

They range from 39 to 10. We all have our up and down days... that's life.


Peace Up




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Alex Jacob
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Alex Jacob »

Shah wrote:

"By telling Turbatio to get a relationship with a woman, when all he wants is sex, you are giving him bad advice. You assume all men want more than sex, and this is not true. Most men would go for sex without strings of any kind if that was an easy option. If you don't believe me, just go ahead and set up a poll. And as an experienced lover, you know that a man is hard-pressed to get casual sex from a regular woman without deceiving her. So, his best, more honest option is still the prostitute. Now it may just be a matter of finding one he can afford."

No one should ever take advice offered over an Internet forum. So, this is all sort of a game, and an opportunity to share one's values. That is pretty much all we seem to do in these conversations, isn't it? Turbation will just have to work out his shit.

How one gets started in a thing always has bearing on how and where you wind up, isn't that true? In my way of seeing things, I think that we are given opportunities to choose the roads we are going to have to walk. We are presented with various alternatives, and then we choose. The way we begin things is important.

But, who am I to talk? I seduced---by clumsy frontal assault, more or less---one of my father's groupies, a girl named Elaine.
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Leyla Shen »

Tomas wrote:No problem-o with me if his spores blow on an older woman. Just be certain it is his choice.
I hardly ever initiated (celibate for the last 4 years), and was not refused when I had. And they're still interested, now.

Believe me, they love it. Get the mother and the prostitute all in one.

Problematic when they want you to have their children, though…
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Leyla Shen »

[laughs]
Alex wrote:I seduced---by clumsy frontal assault, more or less...
What, you fell face first, tongue into her bucksome breasts? Tripped over with an erection and poked her in the mouth?
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Shahrazad »

Alex Jacob wrote:
No one should ever take advice offered over an Internet forum. So, this is all sort of a game, and an opportunity to share one's values. That is pretty much all we seem to do in these conversations, isn't it? Turbation will just have to work out his shit.
Yes, so? By me chiding you for your advice, I am also playing the game of sharing my views on these issues.
How one gets started in a thing always has bearing on how and where you wind up, isn't that true? In my way of seeing things, I think that we are given opportunities to choose the roads we are going to have to walk. We are presented with various alternatives, and then we choose. The way we begin things is important.
It is not good to rush into things. Why rush into a relationship when all you're after for now is sex?

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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Jason »

Alex Jacob wrote:No one should ever take advice offered over an Internet forum.
That's some great advice Alex. My head asplode.
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Jason
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Jason »

Alex Jacob wrote:I didn't know that Australia had legalized prostitution. I looked at a few sites and got a sense of the situation. Here is an argument against the legalization of prostitution which also makes some good points.
Here's a page which focuses more on personal experiences, it paints quite a different picture of what prostitution can be, both for prostitutes and their clients:

Why do so many men pay for sexworkers even with legal risks in the US?
I'm envisioning the round-the-dinner-table conversations with a visiting relative, where the boys are asked what they want to be when they grow up, and they tell, and then it comes around to the girls and one wants to be a dentist, the other a teacher, and the third---always the iconoclast---declares that her future dream is to be a sex-worker.
That reminds me of this.

What about the little boy saying he wants to be a prostitute? It's typical to put the focus on women as the supposed victims in sexual matters. And maybe you should also try imagining 19th century England and the shocked reactions at hearing that a little girl wants to be something other than a wife and mother - a steam engineer perhaps.
If one looks at the pornographic world---and I personally have, pretty thoroughly---I don't think there is anything at all desirable or admirable in it.


As for porn itself, millions of people disagree with you obviously, and I'm one of them. I find plenty of pornography to be desirable, aesthetically very pleasing, beautiful even, and I'm not just talking about airbrushed playboy softcore stuff(although that can be great too), I'm talking about hardcore stuff, penetrations, close ups you name it. I love porn.

The porn industry, behind the scenes, I don't know much about. I do know that porn work and prostitution are still widely demonized and taboo. Demonized and taboo activities can tend to draw in troubled, alienated and desperate people - it seems to me that as a group they are more likely to be willing to put themselves into these situations, mayve they have less to lose. This needs to be taken into account when trying to find associations between porn/prostitution and human misery. Most of the pornstars and prostitutes have also more than likely been inculcated to some degree with the conventional negative views related to their line of work too.
The most interesting thing to do, however, instead of looking to the past or even describing the present, is to look to the future and imagine where things are going. If the developing sex-industry is an indicator, it will be toward a global sex-industry with millions and billions of dollars at stake. It will likely involve trafficking in human beings, sexual exploitation of minors, an open catering to any sort of sexual appetite, and a shift in the way that people even think about these things. It is in the exaggeration that one sees the strange levels it could all go to.
Pedophilia was practiced in ancient Greece and Rome - the originators of so much great art and thought. Interesting, no?
Alex Jacob wrote:
Jason wrote:Sex just physically feels so damn good, everything else is piled on top of this basic reality.
While I certainly agree that sex feels good, I have always been keenly aware that 'pleasure' and hedonism is a very complex area. I am not sure it does always feel good, and I think that obsessive pleasures can often feel quite bad. Even Stoic and Epicurean philosophy seems to take as granted that too much indulgence in sex is weakening to a man. Why do they say that? What is their concern? Drugs also feel 'damn good' but one quickly learns that one can sacrifice far too much to that pleasure, and that they can destroy you. I don't in fact think it is that much different with sex, but it is also a bad thing to repress it, or to turn it into the cause of guilt. There is a peculiar and difficult line demarcation line that has to be managed, and so much of this depends on one's world-view, the nature of one's religious views, so many things.
Some interesting points. The drug comparison is interesting. I've considered the possibility that spending one's life on a very pleasurable drug might be worthwhile. Maybe us sober types are dummies for falling for all this puritanical stuff against drugs. Suppression of pleasures in the name of apparently higher ideals and goals definitely extends far beyond sex.
'Porn-sex' is all the imagery that we are exposed to that comes from the porn industry. It is not images of 'loving' sexuality, and it is not erotica, it is outrightly pornographic. I don't think this needs to be explained too much.
I'm critical of those who try to draw lines between pornography, art and erotica. Usually it seems like no more than taste. I think porn can be art. There are people who love making porn. Also,there is plenty of porn available on the internet featuring actual couples who are in loving relationships.
If you were to ask my personal opinion, where I can stand in judgment of anything I want, I don't think this is good imagery, not to inculcate the masses with. Not to become ubiquitous. One is constantly exposed, in all media, to overtly sexual imagery and there is a 'creep' into mainstream imagery the look and feel of pornography. I personally detest it, but I am not in any sense a Puritan, and I never was. But I always had certain idealism about sex and sexuality, I always tried to conduct it within 'reasonable limits'.
What are reasonable limits though? Are you ok with performing anal sex on your partner? How about receiving anal sex from a strapon?
Alex Jacob wrote:
Jason wrote:And during that time were you always completely sexually satisfied? Did your eyes never lustfully wander to some random attractive woman you saw walking by? I would find it difficult to believe that they didn't.
I am not the one to talk here. No relationship I have ever had has lasted more than three years. You are asking me personally about myself, so I can say that I have a sort of 'conscience', if you will, that acts as a control against openly lusting for another when I am with with someone. It seemed dirty and cheap to me, so to feel good I didn't do it. I think that we get some of these controls, as ethics, from our parents.
You have an interest in traditions and primitive tribal rituals, see if you can swallow some of these sexual practices from Colombia, amongst other places.
Alex Jacob wrote:
Jason wrote:But how about the argument that if sexual desires were fully satisfied one's interests and tasks could get even more focus and energy? It's harder to concentrate when you're hungry.
I guess it really depends on what you do, and how society is ordered. In a culture that is heading toward a very middle-ground denominator, something very average, mediocre, run-of-the-mill, I suppose that all pleasures that are part of 'well-being' will become available, and all for pennies a month. You'll have your satellite teevee service that you cannot live without, your connected gizmos, and all the entertainments and services that you need for sexual stimulation and satisfaction, special ones for the boys and special ones for the girls.
How is it mediocre and run-of-the-mill? Audiences were ducking for cover at the first cinema screenings of locomotives rushing toward the camera. We can fly around the world in hours. We've been to the moon. I'm communicating with you instantly on the other side of the planet etc etc etc.

You want mediocre and run-of-the-mill? How about living in a little tribe with almost no technology or art or knowledge, and doing exactly the same thing your ancestor from 20,000 years ago did. That's run of the mill. I'm a neophile techie and even I find it amazing just how much development and change has occurred already in my life!
Obviously, one could mention the Brave New World vision of things, and there is a great deal of truth in it, and it most certainly CAN be applied to our present. There will come a time---it has in fact come---when this average being will represent a kind of ideal being, and this being will no longer care to recognize nor be capable of recognizing the higher accomplishments, the higher values. They will therefor simply become irrelevant, as they are.
I know you're a big fan of Huxley, this essay BRAVE NEW WORLD? A Defence Of Paradise-Engineering has something relevant to say:
"Brave New World is an unsettling, loveless and even sinister place. This is because Huxley endows his "ideal" society with features calculated to alienate his audience. Typically, reading BNW elicits the very same disturbing feelings in the reader which the society it depicts has notionally vanquished - not a sense of joyful anticipation. In Brave New World Revisited (1958) Huxley describes BNW as a "nightmare."

"As perfect pleasure-drugs go, soma underwhelms. It's not really a utopian wonderdrug at all. It does make you high. Yet it's more akin to a hangoverless tranquilliser or an opiate - or a psychic anaesthetising SSRI like Prozac - than a truly life-transforming elixir."

"If Huxley had wished to tantalise, rather than repel, emotional primitives like us with the biological nirvana soon in prospect, then he could have envisaged utopian wonderdrugs which reinforced or enriched our most cherished ideals. In our imaginations, perhaps we might have been allowed - via chemically-enriched brave new worlders - to turn ourselves into idealised versions of the sort of people we'd most like to be. "

"In the future, it will be feasible technically - at the very least - for pharmacotherapy and genetic medicine to re-engineer us so that we can become - to take one example among billions - a cross between Jesus and Einstein."
Alex Jacob wrote:
Jason wrote:Tradition seems to play an important role in your ideas. No doubt there's always the danger of unintended consequences when tinkering with something as complex as human relationships and psychology.
It is a part of my ideas because I have sometimes gone to the limits of non-traditionalism. I am a man of my generation after all (born in 1962). A huge part of the cultural process was to break loose from social controls, and to explore new areas. In my case, I am very aware that I am exploring traditional but not because I want merely to take up residence in them, as a safe refuge, but because I respect the sobriety of the individuals who created those values.
Why do you respect the individuals who created traditional values? Which individuals are you speaking of? A relatively small number of highly influential people, or the masses of unknown individuals who all slowly, organically and almost imperceptibly made their mark on society, as we are in fact also doing right now? Don't you think that there have been many long-lasting traditions that are outright stupid, damaging, superstitious, ugly etc?
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Alex Jacob
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Alex Jacob »

One can, 'in our day and age', find discourse to support almost any position, any activity, any value that you want. Everything having to do with the most touchy issues---sex, gender, race (there are of course others) is all heavily fought-over, and there are ugly battles being waged, literal 'culture wars'. The site you took the essay on sex practices in Colombia came from this source: Altnet.org. It is centered in SF, and I grew up in the Bay Area and leftist, alternative values were really my first values. We may open a whole other can of worms, but though I still hold strongly to the social justice ideals, I am deeply suspicious of the Left, and think what they offer as a whole package needs to be gone through very carefully.

But as I have said, I do not have the power to control anyone, and I certainly don't have the power to enforce my chosen values over any other people. We live in an age where all these things have come out into the open, and we will all have to deal with the ramifications of the collective choices we make.

"As for porn itself, millions of people disagree with you obviously, and I'm one of them. I find plenty of pornography to be desirable, aesthetically very pleasing, beautiful even, and I'm not just talking about airbrushed playboy softcore stuff (although that can be great too), I'm talking about hardcore stuff, penetrations, close ups you name it. I love porn."

I am completely aware that 'millions' disagree with me. The old controls are being lifted, the old laws are being overturned, the old ethical and moral codes have been revised even if the new codes have not been written out. What everyone should know, though, is that every choice we make is a choice that has ramifications. I listened to a Catholic priest making a tour of a Cali, Colombia ghetto, explain how the drug-appetite of people in the North and in Europe have an astounding effect on what happens in a far-flung part of the world of which they have absolutely no awareness. It is a peculiar meditation because back in the late 70s and early 80s I remember smoking 'Colombian Red', which I later learned was grown almost exclusively in the Santa Marta region of Colombia, and it is the pot industry that gave the Medellin and Cali cartels their original influx of cash with which to invest in cocaine production. The social cost of the drug industry and gangsterism in Colombia is staggering, but I assure you that this was the last thing I was thinking about getting high on Mt Tam back in those days.

Something analogous is happening in the development of the world-wide pornographic industry that certainly can be critiqued, and the critiques make sense, but I am also aware, as with the stuff you presented, there are people who think that all controls should be lifted. Again, you can find someone, somewhere, to support almost any position you have or wish to have. At the end of the day the only real question to be asked is, Are we happy with the results?

This is likely irrelevant to you as a criterion of consideration, but my view is that the best of what it means to be human comes about when we set our eyes and our wills on 'higher things'. Although you do not agree, and I have no way to make anyone agree with me, I think that we have to train ourselves to limit our pleasures and temper our spirits through certain renunciations. It is quite possible to turn the living of life into a pure hedonistic enterprise, and I think our modern culture is certainly working in this direction, yet I think that we will lose from that far more than we will gain. These are decisions that I have made based on my own experiences, my own internal visions, and I really have not come up with a way to 'sell' these views to other people. And finally, though you will not relate to what I say, but I have never hidden this fact, my values are essentially formed by traditional sources, such as Biblical values, Biblical ideas, and what I understand as core religious values. Modern culture, advertising, democratic values, all conspire to seduce people away from those values and ideals and there is very little any one can do to stop it.

"What are reasonable limits though? Are you ok with performing anal sex on your partner? How about receiving anal sex from a strapon?"

When the old-school social controls are questioned, pushed against, weakened and done away with, there are simply no limits to where a roving sexual appetite will go. The strange feature in all of this is that sex is one of the most attractive and bewitching desires that we have. Almost anyone, at some point, in some circumstance, is seducible, and if the culture surrenders all controls, there is no limit to where it will go. When you combine that with mercantile interests, and corporate interests whose primary moral is to generate income, one can easily see what the future will hold for us. It is impossible if the general culture is moving in this direction, to keep this 'information' out of the eyes and heads of youngsters, and they too will be 'seduced' by these insistent pleasures, and they too will participate in the pornographising of culture. It is likely that what we are seeing now is only the very beginning of what is to come. So, I would only ask you---lover of pornography that you are---to be aware of what you are supporting and creating.

When I mentioned 'run-of-the-mill' I mean that it is common values that now have ascendancy. I could describe it in Zarathustrian terms, Nietzschean terms. It is the common appetite, the philistine and common value-system, that is becoming the predominant one, the dictatorial one. As things progress---as in Huxley's BNW---people will no longer even recognize 'higher values', they will not register on their internal radar. In BNW the Savage did something, I can't remember what, maybe he was reading a poem or something, and the people nearby could only interpret it as an invitation to Orgy-Porgy, a group-masturbation session. The demos wants its pleasures, and it will have its pleasures, like a child, and if it doesn't get them it will kick up a fuss and make itself miserable until it gets them back.

You are asking me what my limits are? Why? My limits have no relevance. (But I have never been at all interested in anal intercourse, and if some girl proposed it I think I would bloody her nose and send her packing). (No pun intended).
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Blair
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Re: To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Post by Blair »

Sex (chemical and organic interplay) is, by default, for losers.
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