GENIUS FORUMS

Well, I can think. But I can also Ask and after that Inquire.

I sometimes have higher states of mind/consciousness however I lose it within a couple of days.

I do not know why.

What do I for example need to read to come to understand the ego more precisely?

Regards!

Justin

I'm a little surprised you ask this considering the rather large list of resources you have on your own website. But I think you could read any Zen texts, The Thinking Man's Minefield, Genius News, or just hang around here a while.

What aspect of the nature of the ego are you wanting to explore?

Dan Rowden wrote:I'm a little surprised you ask this considering the rather large list of resources you have on your own website. But I think you could read any Zen texts, The Thinking Man's Minefield, Genius News, or just hang around here a while.

What aspect of the nature of the ego are you wanting to explore?

Hi!

Well.

I'm just actively gathering my resources and try to read the pig err big piles of books I have (obviously a lapsus).

However, time is a thing and I have to prioritize.

This has NOT led me to know what I imagined (when asking the question).

I was curious at how some here tend to see the ego and try to cope(?) with what they experience. I didn't like Koans because they are mainly there for "shortcut to redemption" right? I like to contemplate on things and move steadily, no matter how quick or slow. A sudden change in me needs to be accounted for where possible. However, having a theory or two myself, I haven't broken completely through the slumber of my own "ego"(?). I still do not know its reality, I haven't got a persona at least and I am not bound by societal values. Indeed, beyond most that is. Not enlightenment however.

But lets not talk about enlightenment, that is a bridge too far for me, still (got enough information about the meditation proces etc already indeed).

I just want to equip myself with the methods which seem usefull to me.

A koan? Well, I want to create a systematizable psychology in such a way that I can create a koan myself then.

I'll keep it to this for now :-).

Be well!

Justin

JustinZijlstra wrote: I was curious at how some here tend to see the ego and try to cope(?) with what they experience

Dear Justin,
In my experience the ego appears whenever there is a conflict, or there is a choice. Further the ego is a construct of the intellectual mind, so it appears with thoughts. In the moments you are free from conflict choice and thinking the ego disappears, (A rare occurrence indeed).

"What do I for example need to read to come to understand the ego more precisely?...
I was curious at how some here tend to see the ego and try to cope(?) with what they experience. I didn't like Koans because they are mainly there for "shortcut to redemption" right? I like to contemplate on things and move steadily, no matter how quick or slow. A sudden change in me needs to be accounted for where possible. However, having a theory or two myself, I haven't broken completely through the slumber of my own "ego"(?). I still do not know its reality, I haven't got a persona at least and I am not bound by societal values. Indeed, beyond most that is. Not enlightenment however.

But lets not talk about enlightenment, that is a bridge too far for me, still (got enough information about the meditation proces etc already indeed)."

Hi Justin,
My functional definition of ego is each person's lifetime of conditioning/programing which establishes one's concept of "myself."
But everything short of enlightenment is, bottom line, working on a "new improved self"... all kinds of "self improvement" scenarios.

I suggest Franklin Merrell- Wolff's "Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object." This exposes "self/ego" as just another concept, an object reified by the mind with no intrinsic reality other than the program... "This is who I am,", defined (made finite) by the limits of the personal program.
Ultimately awareness transcends all the "objects" we are aware of, including the concepts "me", "god"... whatever.

For my nutshell version of enlightenment (if you dare) see my opener in the "Liberation" thread.

Regards,
mikiel

Well, if ego is an "construct", then this construct is an individual problem?

What happened to the "ego hammer" of the indian guru (The Guru has a harder time with us occidentals).

And if there is a way to enlightenment, which is imperative to me, then there are some dynamics.

So, for me there is a psychological condition or even metaphysical condition if you wish. This condition comes with "handling something", this something can be your inside world or outside world, but it HAS effects on your psyche. For example on your feelings or drives or passions, this I call Intent, from this Intent actions get "figured".

So, what tools do we have? Perhaps we can mutually think of some in addition to answering this question proportional to eachothers insight.

Be well!

Justin

maestro wrote:In the moments you are free from conflict choice and thinking the ego disappears, (A rare occurrence indeed).

It's not really rare, because it happens every night when you go into unconscious sleep.

Of course, the ego is still there - it's just that it's gone into temporary remission.

It also happens inbetween each thought.

JustinZijlstra wrote:And if there is a way to enlightenment, which is imperative to me, then there are some dynamics.

When you discover the existence of a thief, the thief goes away. That's the way it is with the ego.

What is it that feels lacking? And why does it feel lacking? Following those questions leads to the ego, and eventually to its dismissal.

My times of higher consciousness come and go........I find that the best way to deal with that (for me) is to just let it be gone until it returns of its own volition.

I always thought that Ego was just brash confidence. But as for higher conciousness I think that certain vitamin pills help. Those orange chewy ones work for me, and vegetables.

I wonder if anyone has ever written about "brain exhaustion"?

A lot of people seem to understand perfectly, that when they walk or run a couple of miles, their bodies are exhausted and need some rest.

Then why do we get annoyed when our brains are tired?

maestro wrote:In the moments you are free from conflict choice and thinking the ego disappears, (A rare occurrence indeed).

It's not about being free from choice. Conflict comes in when you forget that it doesn't really matter what you choose. The only thing that matters is what you feel when you choose.

Kevin Solway wrote:When you discover the existence of a thief, the thief goes away. That's the way it is with the ego.

Hi!

Exactly this.

My question would be: what kind of thoughts would be necessary to let the thief get interested such that I can stumble upon the act. Need I lower my threshold of observation? Or just some looking at somthing I haven't expected before?

Cybersmiles wrote:I wonder if anyone has ever written about "brain exhaustion"?

I have thought about this.

I thought that there is a certain amount of energy flowing around in the mind. However not all of it is distributed equally efficient.

JustinZijlstra wrote: My question would be: what kind of thoughts would be necessary to let the thief get interested such that I can stumble upon the act.

Just observe the mind in the midst of an argument.

maestro wrote:

JustinZijlstra wrote: My question would be: what kind of thoughts would be necessary to let the thief get interested such that I can stumble upon the act.

Just observe the mind in the midst of an argument.

What would I find?

maestro wrote:Just observe the mind in the midst of an argument.

Hi!

I do not believe this answers my question..

However, I have done a lot of vipassana meditation.

Be well!

Justin

JustinZijlstra wrote:I do not believe this answers my question..

Well you asked for a specific instance when you see the ego in clear operation.
Observe the mind during an argument you will see that mostly you are not defending a logical thought or discovering the truth, but defending and propagating your ego.

maestro wrote:

JustinZijlstra wrote:I do not believe this answers my question..

Well you asked for a specific instance when you see the ego in clear operation.
Observe the mind during an argument you will see that mostly you are not defending a logical thought or discovering the truth, but defending and propagating your ego.

Hi!

I have theoretically cut through this.

I make the distinction between: Intention & Extension.

Intention is all that which is primordial to what comes, thus to I pick out some Intentions like: "Intuition, emotion, feeling change, physical awareness changes, Visuals (dream/introspective visuals)", then the Extension would be something the ratio of things for most, however for me Intention + Extension is the total measure thus ratio thus Reasoning vocabulary. This particular vocabulary is not the total measure of being, being also includes "Observation".

Be well!

Justin

JustinZijlstra wrote:My question would be: what kind of thoughts would be necessary to let the thief get interested such that I can stumble upon the act.

You could taunt the ego that it is a coward unless it pursues the truth. That way, you would be giving the ego a reason to identify its own faults (ie, itself).

Take boredom, or loneliness, for example. You could challenge the ego to find out exactly where they are coming from, and whether they are valid.

Kevin Solway wrote:

JustinZijlstra wrote:My question would be: what kind of thoughts would be necessary to let the thief get interested such that I can stumble upon the act.

You could taunt the ego that it is a coward unless it pursues the truth. That way, you would be giving the ego a reason to identify its own faults (ie, itself).

Take boredom, or loneliness, for example. You could challenge the ego to find out exactly where they are coming from, and whether they are valid.

Yes! This is where I am aiming at!

Indeed, I do this in a similar fashion. I look at the Intention of someone (definition of above) (their intonation or tempo changes) and then follow how I react towards it mentally, then if it is productive I react right away, if not I'll respond more constructively. Thus meaning: Other's action->Internal reaction->discarding direct response->constructive formulation->action when I think I know enough to formulate it.

Boredom for me is highly complex. I think like Heidegger partially at least. Angst (anxiety without an object) and Boredom do not have objects but are there.

Boredom and Angst in their pure sense are no simple ego objects. I think that when you reconstruct the ego in Angst it is repressed or ideally surmounted with higher consciousness (excuses for my rude and free thoughts, but I tend to think like that). Boredom then, is there where one either in the ego sense has too much to do and can't decide thus being in the slippery slope of trivalhood OR one has metaphysical boredom, which is for me what attacks me each time.

Metaphysics introduction J.'s way:

Fox, He who knows all. (Knowledge)
Hedgehog, he who knows one thing. (Wisdom)

We got Epimetheus and Prometheus (Twins)
We got Hypnos and Thanatos (Brethern)

In the hypnological sense we sleep for truth.
In the Thanatological sense we know no slumber because dead is that which preoccupies us.
In between we find the human sense.

Epimetheus is that which forgets (thus dead is not on his wish list at all, conversation is however, sounds like anima not?).
Prometheus is that which has an absolute memory but not being the equivalent of the Fox and Hedgehog together I think.

Once in Great Great Greek Tragical Times (all Tragical Greek time is great to me) there was NO Plato, great times indeed. Man where just mortal, however we did not live historically which was Maestro Hegel's invention. In these times Plato did not utter the later Neoplatonic imperative: "We live beyond dead". I suppose the quality of life dropped right there into deep regression, lets recall, Hypnos and Epimetheus here, who needs to remember in a time of circumscribing dead? Right? Well, drop the last bit, I'm not totally thought yet in that regard.

The Polis appeared and this IS a metaphysical thing. One of the first great inventions. It was there to serve man as Technical Device. Another God taken from the imagination of man! And who was the other god? Well actually two!

Prometheus went on stealing the Fire of Zeus and the Intelligence of some Goddess I cannot recall this quickly, he got punished be we also! Yes, we have to continuously invent next to Tekhne (Technology (fire with intelligence)) to survive, we are the walking Tabula Rasa's on earth.

So, First Fire, then Polis (Please refine when you know better), then Law, then constitutions.

However, this Metaphysical Technology taken from the Gods is changed into passivity, namely the Gods are replaced for a personal experience (Indeed, I exclaim again: Internal worlds are Worlds not to be taken serious as well!) and this personal experience is connected to the imagination which driffles (often) other people without them knowing it, the drifflers even do not know it because they have inherited such behaviour where others build on and indeed do not know the origin of. The Gods DID know, they called that: "Slave Moral!".

Thus Where Science with metaphysics under its arm reigned for ages under the gods, the gods got stripped to their bare abstractions, and after that metaphysics got forgotten as well, perhaps some self proclaimed endangered species called "The Monk", didn't dare to recall what god really was in Tragical Times. Sigh.. "Just latinize the damn Script!" some higher monk perhaps exclaimed whereafter the little megalomanic monk.. Well, changed time forever.

We all change time, but this one strikes me as uh, well whatever, it IS frustrating!

Now, Technology and Science united and metaphysics forgotten and lost out of sight. Is in the same state as the monks. Mostly Megalomaniacs or Scholastical stupidity and correction (like social correction). Yup. We philosophers where in decay but once everywhile there was a great philosopher uuh monk, so I have Faith Moral regarding the Philosophers.

Metaphysics is not about anything, it is just a piece of equipment we need to use, as we have to do with all our equipment.

Technology has gone as far as being Autonomous as humans have been. Hence, learning law to SERVE law, learning about the polis to be SOCIALLY CONTRACTED! (also metaphysics which I forgot as more I guess, and no, Hegel's Historicism is NOT common place, I recall Nietzsche here) The Monk, haha, no, entirely my not so good joke, right? Well, sigh..

Metaphysics to serve Humanity? NO!

The hole in reasoning of history until now I think is not that like Heidegger said around WOII "The spirit of the mechanical or Technical" or whatever I cannot recall. No! We lost touch of Metaphysics and therefore cannot utilize all the things and thoughts we have created, those things and thoughts are Tekhne! WITH spirit but NOT recognized through metaphysics.

To Serve Humanity for (Elusive) Metaphysics!


Hope this introduction and my point make sense.

Edit:

I forgot my boredom!

Boredom for me is that I have answers to a LOT of things (as we all do) but do not know where to start my metaphysics, this should not be the case so I take up writing and thinking and researching. Then I get lost in pathos and (pre)occupations.

Still I have not figured out what THIS particular Boredom is and what my ego does indirectly in such cases.

Be well!

Justin

Justin, I think you are making things overly complex, to serve as a distraction.

What is your goal in life?

If you are very clear about what your goal is, many things will automatically fall away, and that will make things much simpler. There will only be one object in front of you to deal with.

Boredom for me is highly complex.

Okay, leave boredom aside then. How about fear of rejection, or envy. Those things are more clear-cut. How do you feel when a woman you love rejects you outright, and prefers the company of an idiot who will destroy her?

When you pursue those feelings with a genuine attempt to get to the bottom of them, you arrive at the same place as you do if you try to fathom boredom (or any other form of suffering).

Kevin Solway wrote:If you are very clear about what your goal is, many things will automatically fall away, and that will make things much simpler. There will only be one object in front of you to deal with.

Boredom for me is highly complex.

Okay, leave boredom aside then. How about fear of rejection, or envy. Those things are more clear-cut. How do you feel when a woman you love rejects you outright, and prefers the company of an idiot who will destroy her?

When you pursue those feelings with a genuine attempt to get to the bottom of them, you arrive at the same place as you do if you try to fathom boredom (or any other form of suffering).

I have never known envy.

Fear of rejection, also not the case.

When a woman rejects me I ask myself why and get emotional about it if it had a long standing relation. However if I make up my mind most frivolous emotions are gone if not all.

But I do not experience normal boredom since early adolescence, I simply thought: "well, there is enough todo, and if not physically then mentally".

The problem with simplicity is that it only helps growth however it does not answer, it changes only. I do not think this is perfect harmony.

Be well!

Justin

(I'm off the grid for days at a time... just back this eve.)
Justin,
You said, "So, for me there is a psychological condition or even metaphysical condition if you wish. This condition comes with "handling something", this something can be your inside world or outside world, but it HAS effects on your psyche. For example on your feelings or drives or passions, this I call Intent, from this Intent actions get "figured"."

If you read "Merrell-wolff" as I suggested, you will find that all the "stuff" you speak of above comprises merely "objects in consciousness" as distinct from consciousness itself, That which is aware of all of the above.
You say you have practiced vipassana meditation. Clearly it is attunement to this awareness which is aware of all that passes by, the "flotilla" so to speak in the stream of consciousness.

So basically, ego is preoccupied with all its "stuff", which is essentially, "This is who I am... This is what I want... I get unhappy (fill in synonym) when I don't get 'it'... and then I suffer and spread it all around." (A very brief description of ego in contrast to enlightenment.)
See egocentricity and its concerns are in a different dimension of consciousness than the spiritually awakened state? If you settle for less than totall cosmic concsiousness (non-dual unity... transcending separate identity) you will remain a programmed robot, like all egocentrics. The best you can hope for in that illusory realm is the highest imaginable (for you) "new improved model" of human slavery to the attachments you hold dear.

mikiel

mikiel wrote:(I'm off the grid for days at a time... just back this eve.)
Justin,
You said, "So, for me there is a psychological condition or even metaphysical condition if you wish. This condition comes with "handling something", this something can be your inside world or outside world, but it HAS effects on your psyche. For example on your feelings or drives or passions, this I call Intent, from this Intent actions get "figured"."

If you read "Merrell-wolff" as I suggested, you will find that all the "stuff" you speak of above comprises merely "objects in consciousness" as distinct from consciousness itself, That which is aware of all of the above.
You say you have practiced vipassana meditation. Clearly it is attunement to this awareness which is aware of all that passes by, the "flotilla" so to speak in the stream of consciousness.

So basically, ego is preoccupied with all its "stuff", which is essentially, "This is who I am... This is what I want... I get unhappy (fill in synonym) when I don't get 'it'... and then I suffer and spread it all around." (A very brief description of ego in contrast to enlightenment.)
See egocentricity and its concerns are in a different dimension of consciousness than the spiritually awakened state? If you settle for less than totall cosmic concsiousness (non-dual unity... transcending separate identity) you will remain a programmed robot, like all egocentrics. The best you can hope for in that illusory realm is the highest imaginable (for you) "new improved model" of human slavery to the attachments you hold dear.

mikiel

Thanks!

I just start my day with your reaction.

So if we asume I am a pedestrian wanting to take not of each step he takes and philosophize about it (in contrast with speculate). How then would you side step the meditation proces?

Be well!

Justin