GENIUS FORUMS

On owning a house: It all depends on how you weigh the pros and cons.

Contras.
- Owning a house requires maintenance, and related costs. So there's an outlay of time, energy, and money. As a householder, you're trying to keep the house in shape, and that also means keeping the house's environment in shape. The boundaries of the house extend... That's a big karma. Anything that goes wrong with the house or close environment is your responsibility to fix, and there may be trouble if you don't fix things immediately.

- Humankind is in such poor shape, that it's better to burn money, than tire out the body and brain on householding. Does owning a house translate into lasting and wide-reaching benefits, that couldn't be had by renting? Money may well be useless in decades to come. If it's for one's own lifestyle, is that really worth the effort?

- People get emotionally attached to houses and property, because the ego desires a sanctuary against the world.

- Can't move easily or travel for long periods.

- Selling might be impossible, or the market value plummet.

- House can be demolished for a new highway; compensation much less than expected.

- Might get tired of the area, or seeing the same people all the time, but be unable to sell the house.

- If living in a rural or remote area, might stagnate from lessened mental stimulation. Might stop engaging in writing and other forms of conversational pressure to promote wisdom. Probably not able to contribute to in-person debates on atheism, religion, science and reason. Might go for decades without meeting anyone with potential.



Pros.
- If versatile and long-lasting, setting up a house would be worth it. For instance, setting up a thinkers' estate in one's state, combining a backpackers, cafe, library, temple to nature, and farm, would have a reasonably strong effect on people, if it were done well. But it's a lot of work, and the participants would have to have their 'sea-legs', spiritually speaking, and never undertake the affair if it would be a distraction from their main purpose. Plenty of these endeavours have crumbled and wasted everyone's time, because the members are egotists whose ideals quickly deteriorate into physical design systems as ideals - which then turns into a normal selfish suburban community.

- Not paying money on rent, and possibly increased value of the property which might translate into actual money if the house can be sold (it may not attract any buyers).

- Unlikely one will be kicked out.

- Can avoid high living costs of cities, if the house is sited in a remote or rural area.

Kelly Jones wrote: Contras.
- Owning a house requires maintenance, and related costs. So there's an outlay of time, energy, and money. As a householder, you're trying to keep the house in shape, and that also means keeping the house's environment in shape. The boundaries of the house extend... That's a big karma. Anything that goes wrong with the house or close environment is your responsibility to fix, and there may be trouble if you don't fix things immediately.

Keeping the house in shape keeps the body and wallet in shape. Why waste your time exercising in a way that doesn't make money? It's a way of building assets without compromising govt income.

- Humankind is in such poor shape, that it's better to burn money, than tire out the body and brain on householding. Does owning a house translate into lasting and wide-reaching benefits, that couldn't be had by renting? Money may well be useless in decades to come. If it's for one's own lifestyle, is that really worth the effort?

If money becomes useless, i can't see why by the way, renting is a problem, and owning a house can be very good. Sorting out a house shouldn't take more than a year or two on a causal basis, so if you stay there a number of years it's not much overall.

- People get emotionally attached to houses and property, because the ego desires a sanctuary against the world.

Yes, i recommend renting or the like until the ego is well and truly overcome.

- Can't move easily or travel for long periods.

You can travel for long periods, and you can rent it out for extra travelling income and/or to pay off the mortgage which is a form of asset development.

- Selling might be impossible, or the market value plummet.

Yes. But rent's can also skyrocket and become impossible.

- House can be demolished for a new highway; compensation much less than expected.

I don't imagine so.

- Might get tired of the area, or seeing the same people all the time, but be unable to sell the house.

Unlikely. You've fixed it up. Maybe there's few jobs in the area but still people buy.

- If living in a rural or remote area, might stagnate from lessened mental stimulation. Might stop engaging in writing and other forms of conversational pressure to promote wisdom.

Maybe. Or you might have the space to focus.

Probably not able to contribute to in-person debates on atheism, religion, science and reason. Might go for decades without meeting anyone with potential.

Likely, unless you buy in or near a city.

Rhett wrote:Keeping the house in shape keeps the body and wallet in shape. Why waste your time exercising in a way that doesn't make money? It's a way of building assets without compromising govt income.

Well, I look at how you and Kevin manage your householding, and I can see there is a huge karma involved. Hypothetically you can sell up at any time, and use the money for publishing something like Poison for the Heart, or the like. In reality, it is not so simple. Kevin's house value depends mostly on mining activities right next to world heritage areas. The only other industries are forestry and tourism; both of these are precarious industries, based on very limited resources (oil, very slow-growing trees). The area is too wet and cold for conventional agriculture or grazing (surprisingly, emus can cope with the heavy snow). Once the foresters and miners have ravaged the area, the towns will be overrun by vandalism, signs of which are already evident. There are many houses for sale in his region, at the cheapest property prices in the state, and the town has a large proportion of people on government benefits (meaning, it's stagnant). If Kevin manages to sell up, which I don't think he will, he dumps someone else in the same situation. So his "asset" really depends on the towns developing more sustainable industries. Yet a large proportion of the inhabitants of these remote areas are often depressive, alcoholic, vegetable-like people. I'm not sure what your situation is, but it sounds like you're not in an area where people are thinking all that much.

To me, it sounds like a lot of energy being diverted from wisdom to chores. One has to draw the line somewhere. Humankind is in a really precarious situation; one has to use one's existence wisely and be as efficient as possible. I personally don't have a lot of energy, and I find the time sweeping past all too quickly. I'll try to avoid my wisdom being wiped out accidentally, but I can't be sure how long it will live. And there is so much to do. Maybe too, I'll stagnate, and stop being productive. So I don't like deliberately wasting my time.

I don't want my epitaph to read 'He built a house'.

Sorting out a house shouldn't take more than a year or two on a causal basis, so if you stay there a number of years it's not much overall.

...i recommend renting or the like until the ego is well and truly overcome.

I agree with both of these. If there's attachment to having peace and quiet, then thoughts will linger on sorting out a house. It already takes quite a bit of thought, not including renovations.


From the Dhammapada:

Beyond life

How can there be laughter, how can there be pleasure, when the whole world is burning?
When you are in deep darkness, will you not ask for a lamp?
Consider this body! A painted puppet with jointed limbs, sometimes suffering and covered with ulcers,
full of imaginings, never permanent, for ever changing.

This body is decaying! A nest of diseases, a heap of corruption, bound to destruction, to dissolution. All life ends in death.

Look at these grey-white dried bones, like dried empty gourds thrown away at the end of the summer.
Who will feel joy in looking at them?
A house of bones is this body, bones covered with flesh and with blood.
Pride and hypocrisy dwell in this house and also old age and death.

The glorious chariots of kings wear out, and the body wears out and grows old;
but the virtue of the good never grows old, and thus they can teach the good to those who are good.

If a man tries not to learn he grows old just like an ox! His body indeed grows old but his wisdom does not grow.

I have gone round in vain the cycles of many lives ever striving to find the builder of the house of life and death.
How great is the sorrow of life that must die!

But now I have seen thee, housebuilder: never more shalt thou build this house.

The rafters of sins are broken, the ridge-pole of ignorance is destroyed.
The fever of craving is past: for my mortal mind is gone to the joy of the immortal NIRVANA.

Those who in their youth did not live in self-harmony, and who did not gain the true treasures of life,
are later like long- legged old herons standing sad by a lake without fish.
Those who in their youth did not live in self-harmony, and who did not gain the true treasures of life, are later like broken bows,
ever deploring old things past and gone.

A good analysis.

I've always preferred renting because I can't stand the thought of getting involved in legal issues, of being fixated by housing prices and the like, of doing repairs and maintenance chores, and so on. Sounds like a lot of useless work to me.

I also don't like the psychological consequences of owning a house - such as slipping into the habit to regarding one's home as a secure fortress against the rest of the world, and the way it encourages you to become more worldly. To put no finer point on it, I despise the householder mentality, which is barely distinguishable from the husband mentality.

On the other hand, rents have sky-rocketed so much over the past few years in Australia that affording a rental property is becoming a real problem, especially for a dole-bludger like me. So owning a house is an advantage in the current economic climate.

As for the idea of a thinker's estate, I'm ambivalent on that one. On the one hand, it could be stimulating and fun, as well as effective in promoting wisdom to others. But as you mentioned, Kelly, there is the ever-present danger of it degenerating into yet another deluded, uninspired community run by frauds and cows. It would have to have a core group of committed philosophers and sage-types setting the tone of the place, which, if the estate is to last into the future as a viable vehicle for wisdom, would have to be replenished as the years went by. That would be the greatest challenge, in my view.

-

If we lot are more productive than we currently are, not considering other factors, then the thinkers' estates are still about twenty years into the future. It's too risky for the present. It'd only be a good idea for a group of solidly enlightened individuals to spend that much effort on a form of communication that is weaker than writing or speaking, if there are hundreds or thousands of other wise people around.

I think it is a better idea to rent a bedsit in a city, or a big country town, and help grow a culture of idealism, and rational speech and behaviour. It is far more effective to be doing this right now when it is needed.

But like you say, David, it's getting too expensive in most cities to rent. Tasmanian prices aren't so bad. The alternative is sharing, or getting a house left to one by relatives.

Sharing has some serious drawbacks. A person has to be a solidly enlightened to share accommodation - similarly, those with whom they're sharing - to avoid pair-bonding, or experiencing inroads into one's individuality. So, even though it's cheaper, and enables one to remain in the city, it's a major trade-off. Squatting, or renting old office blocks and turning them into cheap shared accommodation, might save money, but still forces the body to be perceived as part of a group (which affects the soul) - and, it's illegal, and the buildings are unhealthy with polluted air.

The cheapest rents in Australia are places like Burnie, the fourth largest 'city' in Tassie, where I lived a few years ago; or large country towns in south-east Victoria, at about AUD80pw. Bill Mollison lives in the Burnie area, but the north-west's population has (I think) the lowest literacy rates in Australia, and high levels of poverty. It's also the Bible belt. Most of the rural areas in Australia have about 100pw rentals for bedsits - but it takes a lot longer to convert sleepy countryfolk.

I'm paying AUD120pw for renting a bedsit in the snobby area of Launceston. My location is pretty good. I walk or ride my bike wherever I regularly go. I rarely catch a bus. However, it's very hilly. I'm here in the city for one main reason, to attend philosophical discussions and thereby graft more people into the internet forum (for Tasmanians, to get internet-phobic locals interested). A person actually turned up at the last weekly cafe discussion - a child psychologist. We talked about anarchy, causation, logic, and truth; and it wasn't me who got us onto those topics. So the rent is worth such things.

My dole goes towards: rent, food, electricity, internet, webhosting, internet forum hosting, telephone, mobile, squash, gym, meals at the philosophy discussions (a pub and a cafe), and advertising the forum and discussions by leaflets. I'm able to save a bit more than AUD100 per fortnight. This will probably help to buy a video camera, and an electric bike conversion kit (between 300 and 800). I can save towards a block of land and a caravan or shed, but I won't move there unless I've done all I can with my city.

The interesting thing about our economic situation is how it forces essentially lazy people to work harder, people who are evermore suspicious of politicians and other authority figures. People who are awake to climate change, to pollution, to greed, to political spin, to the futility of raising children when the children have no future; to the futility of drunken or drugged oblivion; to the clone-like expressions of sexual promiscuity. It's either suicide or some serious problem-solving. Married couples with hard faces and sleeker cars and more sterile lives; and on the other hand, ravaged souls looking for solutions. So the cities are fermenting with opportunities for problem-solving conversations.

In my opinion, wisdom isn't about totally abandoning life as a means to dedicate all ones energy to spreading rational information. I think one should experience life as well. One of the masculine traits of the soul is that it enjoys fixing up things, taking something that is inherently flawed, and working away at it until the finished product is better quality. For instance: I've done this with used computers, used cars, and even helped family members repair and renovate the home and greenhouse.

There is a quite a bit of satisfaction in working for oneself at a slow pace, in the sun, and taking breaks whenever one wants, while working towards some desired goal. It can be enjoyable, as the body needs exercise.

One of the drawbacks when you rent is that you are not building any sort of equity for yourself, you are making someone else rich. At least if you have an asset when you're old, you could always sell it, and live off that sum. Plus, when you rent, many times, landlords are reluctant to spend money to fix things up at your request, and if they do, you have to wait for them to reluctantly give in to your demands after many attempts.

Renting and owning both have their pros and cons. Although, Real Estate prices are beginning to deflate because of inflation, failing financial markets, and the poor economic atmosphere in general. However, if one waits, one could probably get a good deal on a home when the market hits bottom, and then sell it at the point when the market begins to inflate again.

I would like to eventually save up money to buy a cheap house and enough property to build a garden that can provide enough produce through out the spring, summer, and fall. If I can pay cash for the house all at once, my only regular monthly expenses on the house would be property taxes, utilities, and repairs, which in the long run would probably be much cheaper than renting. This does have the potential of making one think there is a barrier between them and the rest of the world, but if the person is wise enough I don't think that would be a concern. I think the potential in the privacy and independence of owning a house providing one with the most suitable environment for perfecting their self outweighs any other risk. I'm working on paying off my student loan right now, which should be done before the end of this year, and then I can start putting as much money away as possible to save for a house. If all goes well and I can continue not paying rent I should be able to save up for a small $60,000 house with some property in about 4 or 5 years. Things can change quickly so I'll just have to see how things go.

If you can save 12-15,000 per year, wouldn't it make more sense to buy the house well before you have the entire cost in hand? If you put down 25% in two years, even with interest you could conceivably still pay it off in a few years, and still have cash for taxes and repairs. Besides, with waiting till all cash is in hand you're likely paying more for the house. You'd be paying a current owner for the three years appreciation you're giving up by waiting.

The chances of a house appreciating in any significant manner are unlikely with the housing slump still going strong. Also if I lost my job, which is a very real possibility, I don't want to be stuck with a mortgage and potentially lose money if the house depreciates. And of course there is the interest which would probably cause me to end up paying close to 25% more for the house than its market value. I think being patient and saving money is the best option for me right now. Plus it's always nice to have money put away for emergencies.

Whether you buy your own house or you pay rent for someone else's property, you're still going to be spending shitloads of cash. If you don't want to be tied down to a place for years, it is better to rent. If all of a sudden you want to move, and you have to sell your house, you will have to sell at below market price, which means you lose. As others have said, both owning and renting have their pros and cons.

I sold my house a few years ago, and one year ago I was living in a cheap hotel, because rental prices skyrocketed, and I could not rent anything at a reasonable price and in a decent area of town. The cheap hotel cost me $25 a day, but that included power (24 hours a day of air conditioning, which where I live, costs hundreds), water, phone, cable tv, and wireless internet in my room. I got tired of that sort of living after a few months (no kitchen, no fridge), and decided to move to a property that I had purchased in 2005, in a foreclosure, but that still had people living in it, who refused to leave. With tons of work, I finally managed to sort out all legal aspects and moved in the new house, and I thought I was going to save money from not living in the hotel. After all, I paid cash for the house, so there's no mortgage on it. However, with having to pay utilities (for a much bigger place than just a hotel room), internet, etc., plus having to feed a daughter and a dog that just decided to move in with me, plus help with the cleaning, and maintenance and security on the building, I am now spending more money than when I was living in the cheap hotel. Not by much, and I have better quality of living now, but people usually think that having a home that is paid for is pretty close to free living, and it's not like that at all.

Oh, and the property has more than doubled in value since I purchased it in 2005, due to a real estate boom. However, selling it won't really signify making a profit, as with the money I get for it, I will only be able to buy a similar house in this same market, and I have to live somewhere. To make money in real estate, you actually have to have a property additional to your own home.

.



-Shahrazad-
Whether you buy your own house or you pay rent for someone else's property, you're still going to be spending shitloads of cash. If you don't want to be tied down to a place for years, it is better to rent. If all of a sudden you want to move, and you have to sell your house, you will have to sell at below market price, which means you lose. As others have said, both owning and renting have their pros and cons.

-tomas-
Well, I don't know any reason why someone would havta get outta Dodge that fast unlessyouhave no cashflow..

Rent a couple few months, look around, ask questions of potential neighbors in any given locale. The local newspapers have classifieds that advertise 'for sale by owner' and sniff around for any owners/landlors that would write into a rental agreement the 'rent to own' clause..


-Shah-
I sold my house a few years ago, and one year ago I was living in a cheap hotel, because rental prices skyrocketed, and I could not rent anything at a reasonable price and in a decent area of town. The cheap hotel cost me $25 a day, but that included power (24 hours a day of air conditioning, which where I live, costs hundreds), water, phone, cable tv, and wireless internet in my room. I got tired of that sort of living after a few months (no kitchen, no fridge), and decided to move to a property that I had purchased in 2005, in a foreclosure,


-tomas-
Yeah, the girlfriend has (a real estate license and) been doing this foreclosure thingy for some 30 years, it isn't for the money (which ain't too shabby, though) so much as she likes helping young couples starting out in life. She learned the ropes from my dad's sister who started a real estate agency up in the northwestern seacoast of Washington state in the early 1960s. It doesn't hurt that her sister is in banking so that pie can be cut in many differert ways..

We can identify with the motel-life, we hadta do that when we were first starting out :-) Though a bit less, $5 per day back in the late 60s.. She'd clerk the front desk, clean rooms etc. to keep our overhead costs down cuz our first set of twins had already made their appearance. Toughened us up (like all-get-out) but we never had to mooch off the State.


-Shah-
but that still had people living in it, who refused to leave.

-tomas-
How many carrots you dangle on the string to push them along?


-Shah-
With tons of work, I finally managed to sort out all legal aspects and moved in the new house, and I thought I was going to save money from not living in the hotel. After all, I paid cash for the house, so there's no mortgage on it. However, with having to pay utilities (for a much bigger place than just a hotel room), internet, etc., plus having to feed a daughter and a dog that just decided to move in with me, plus help with the cleaning, and maintenance and security on the building, I am now spending more money than when I was living in the cheap hotel.

-tomas-
You, this is what the girlfriend tells the couples, get a wad of money and pay a substantial down payment at least 50% if at all possible. That way, the interest costs (which are generally tax-deductable) won't accrue.

And if you really want to get technical, from the very first payment to the bank - write a check for the principal, and another check for the interest. Banks don't like it but it is legal. This way, you are paying down the principal, instead of the banking writing it off as interest only. That's how they turn their profit.

Works for car loans etc too.


-Shah-
Not by much, and I have better quality of living now, but people usually think that having a home that is paid for is pretty close to free living, and it's not like that at all.

-tomas-
No doubt, who wants the landlord rummaging thru the house on a days' notice. When renting, all sorts of weirdos show up at the door - Does so-and-so still live here?

Recalls the days of motel life, we always changed the locks so we'd be certain any former creepazoids didn't come around looking to steal, do bodily harm.

The privacy of it all!


-Shah-
Oh, and the property has more than doubled in value since I purchased it in 2005, due to a real estate boom. However, selling it won't really signify making a profit, as with the money I get for it, I will only be able to buy a similar house in this same market, and I have to live somewhere. To make money in real estate, you actually have to have a property additional to your own home.

-tomas-
Well put :-)



.

Ryan Rudolph wrote:In my opinion, wisdom isn't about totally abandoning life as a means to dedicate all ones energy to spreading rational information.

You're free to hold that opinion, but does that mean you're now spreading irrational information?

I think one should experience life as well. One of the masculine traits of the soul is that it enjoys fixing up things, taking something that is inherently flawed, and working away at it until the finished product is better quality. For instance: I've done this with used computers, used cars, and even helped family members repair and renovate the home and greenhouse.

This is a low-level expression of the 'masculine trait of the soul'. Far greater is the expression of eliminating all irrationality.

There is a quite a bit of satisfaction in working for oneself at a slow pace, in the sun, and taking breaks whenever one wants, while working towards some desired goal. It can be enjoyable, as the body needs exercise.

Sure. I think what you're really getting at, is that the path of wisdom is not easy, especially when the ego is roaring about having to submit to Truth. In that case, it's better to take a small holiday, with God's permission, to feed the ego and settle these debts.

There are plenty of intelligent ways to stimulate the mind into dealing better with delusions. Playing sports or computer games, programming, bushwalking, gardening, cooking, socialising, etc. Just be aware there are consequences. E.g. debt, health, unwanted relationships.

One of the drawbacks when you rent is that you are not building any sort of equity for yourself, you are making someone else rich. At least if you have an asset when you're old, you could always sell it, and live off that sum.

It is not as simple as that, unfortunately.

Plus, when you rent, many times, landlords are reluctant to spend money to fix things up at your request, and if they do, you have to wait for them to reluctantly give in to your demands after many attempts.

When I am bothered by the problems of living in a rented flat, it helps me to think of Hakuin living in 'Poverty Hermitage', where the most notable thing was the clear moon shining at night through the missing roof.

Or was he talking about the missing ridge-pole of ignorance, having seen through the house builder of life and death?

Perhaps a version of:

"As rain breaks through an ill-thatched house, passion will break through an unreflecting mind."

?

How can someone against attachments feed a house buyer's attachments to luxury, beauty, comfort, etc. by fixing up and maintaining a house? Likewise this maintenance would reinforce neighbors' and visitors' attachments. Definitely a big karma.

The normal progression to enlightenment, first involves materialism, which is the basic condition, then anti-materialism, to counter the materialism, then the state of non-materialism. There would be a lot of negative internal conflict involved in having or buying a house during the anti-materialism stage. It might seem a small thing to some, but this factor alone could preclude enlightenment.

Kelly has made some good points, and where she is living now seems a good choice. I think this kind of choice would be good for many people here, at least in the short term.

But i defend my choice, for me. In the same way that enlightenment is an investment, a long haul process, so too are other choices, like housing. It's true that my house choice has so far required energies that could have been directed towards wisdom, but i expect that it will pay off in the long run. Also, because i bought a duplex, my position is overall much better than if i just bought a single residence. I mentioned it in another thread but also mention here, that i now have tenants and figure overall things will be okay. The town i am in has almost no crime and is well maintained, and if you don't deal with people you possibly won't have too many problems with stand-over tactics and manipulation. When you first move to an area, especially if you have a low income, you are vulnerable and need help, but over time you should be able to consolidate and stand fully on your own two feet.

Sure, i could live in a city, in say a boarding house, and scope around for wisdom potentials, and direct almost every waking hour towards wisdom. And i haven't forgotten this option. But now that i'm reasonably set up in my house, i can similarly scope for wisdom potentials on the internet, and direct almost every waking hour towards wisdom if i wish.

Another factor of course is whether or not you will receive a healthy chunk of money when your parents die.

Nick Treklis wrote:And of course there is the interest which would probably cause me to end up paying close to 25% more for the house than its market value.

Just to make a general point, people that take 35 years to pay off a mortgage typically pay around 2.5 times the original value of the property. But due to the economics of the situation this isn't actually a bad thing. Consider, for instance, that the loan repayments stay the same, but due to inflation their real cost dwindles to almost nothing over time. Also consider, of course, that in 35 years the house will likely be worth a lot more than 2.5 times the original value. A ready reconner i've heard is that they double every seven years. This would mean after seven years they are double, fourteen years they are 4 times, 21 years they are 8 times, 28 years they are 16 times, 35 years they are 32 times their original value. A $20,000 house in 1973 becomes a $640,000 house today. Possibly not too far off, if the location is good.

Not only that, but mortgage repayments can be less than rents. In my case, i am receiving $100/wk in rent from others, and because i had a good deposit my mortgage costs about $70 per week. So my house is being paid for by others plus i am getting extra cash. That is so, so much better than renting. Although i miss out on rent assistance from the government, which i think i should get. It keeps many in poverty the way they only help people who pay rent.

Kelly,

You're free to hold that opinion, but does that mean you're now spreading irrational information?

Or maybe you’re just too extreme and narrow minded in your view.

This is a low-level expression of the 'masculine trait of the soul'. Far greater is the expression of eliminating all irrationality.

I don’t think so. Masculine individuals enjoy tinkering with how things work in all aspects, not just philosophy. I encourage people to strive to be more of a balanced polymath, rather than a narrow-minded philosopher who ends up being quite useless in society. I value rationality, but I also value pragmatic survival.

Sure. I think what you're really getting at, is that the path of wisdom is not easy, especially when the ego is roaring about having to submit to Truth. In that case, it's better to take a small holiday, with God's permission, to feed the ego and settle these debts.

Its not a holiday, its part of life. its part of god's experience. When you’re enlightened all experiences are part of god, and you don’t have to ask permission because you are god. You’re free to do whatever you want. And you may feel a little sore after some labour, but the end result helps in your survival.

There are plenty of intelligent ways to stimulate the mind into dealing better with delusions. Playing sports or computer games, programming, bushwalking, gardening, cooking, socialising, etc. Just be aware there are consequences. E.g. debt, health, unwanted relationships

.

You don’t have to bring every action back to dealing with delusion. Eventually, you don’t worry about it, and may go for a walk on the beach one day, or fix your computer another day, or debate on genius forum another day… face the world as it comes, don’t use your will so much. that is what freedom is all about. Why restrict yourself to one limited activity? Freedom is about variation and variety.

Kelly, this is just my opinion, but you seem like a very high-energy person, and you also seem like you have focused all that energy into one activity that you value – namely spreading wisdom. However, such a focus maybe a little too imbalanced, perhaps almost neurotic.

Part of enlightenment is just letting go and not fighting ‘what is’. You need to allow things to unfold as they happen rather than constantly forcing them in an act of will. It part of the package – its part of totally facing death… and why not spend a week doing absolutely nothing…? Don’t write on GF, don’t meet up with people in coffeeshops, basically, don’t care so much, indulge in your own sensual enjoyment for awhile, cook yourself some really lavish meals, be selfish, see how that feels….clear your mind, lay in a hot bath, while trying not to fantasize about what you should do next.

Becoming enlightened requires extreme single-minded dedication for a long period of time. But the situation needs to be managed appropriately. After enlightenment, the mind is much better at gaining knowlege and skills.

Ryan Rudolph wrote:RR: In my opinion, wisdom isn't about totally abandoning life as a means to dedicate all ones energy to spreading rational information.

KJ: You're free to hold that opinion, but does that mean you're now spreading irrational information?

RR: Or maybe you’re just too extreme and narrow minded in your view.

I'm actually mediocre, hypocritical, lazy, and spend too much time in the animal realms. So I'm just speaking from my perspective, which is that I know how important bodhicitta is, and how much I lack it. I can't help but view others from this perspective. If you think that's extreme and narrow-minded, then to you it may well be. I don't mind.

RR: I think one should experience life as well. One of the masculine traits of the soul is that it enjoys fixing up things, taking something that is inherently flawed, and working away at it until the finished product is better quality.

KJ: This is a low-level expression of the 'masculine trait of the soul'. Far greater is the expression of eliminating all irrationality.

RR: I don’t think so. Masculine individuals enjoy tinkering with how things work in all aspects, not just philosophy.

It's possible you're working with a different definition for 'philosophy' than me.

As I see it, a superior man, which is what I am aiming to be (may I be victorious!), sees philosophy as life, literally. Wisdom = Truth = Ultimate Reality.

I encourage people to strive to be more of a balanced polymath, rather than a narrow-minded philosopher who ends up being quite useless in society. I value rationality, but I also value pragmatic survival.

Yesterday a fellow called me the equivalent of Osama Bin Laden, because I use the concept "absolute". He is quite sure there is no difference between a deeply deluded Islamic terrorist and myself. So he too thinks I am absolutely useless! ;-)

(Actually, he thinks my use of the word absolute is trivial, and redundant, and therefore useless. He says, what does it tell you about things!? Talk about thick, right?)

RR: There is a quite a bit of satisfaction in working for oneself at a slow pace, in the sun, and taking breaks whenever one wants, while working towards some desired goal. It can be enjoyable, as the body needs exercise.

KJ: Sure. I think what you're really getting at, is that the path of wisdom is not easy, especially when the ego is roaring about having to submit to Truth. In that case, it's better to take a small holiday, with God's permission, to feed the ego and settle these debts.

RR: Its not a holiday, its part of life. its part of god's experience. When you’re enlightened all experiences are part of god, and you don’t have to ask permission because you are god. You’re free to do whatever you want. And you may feel a little sore after some labour, but the end result helps in your survival.

You're free to choose, but there are always consequences.

KJ: There are plenty of intelligent ways to stimulate the mind into dealing better with delusions. Playing sports or computer games, programming, bushwalking, gardening, cooking, socialising, etc. Just be aware there are consequences. E.g. debt, health, unwanted relationships.

RR: You don’t have to bring every action back to dealing with delusion. Eventually, you don’t worry about it, and may go for a walk on the beach one day, or fix your computer another day, or debate on genius forum another day… face the world as it comes, don’t use your will so much. that is what freedom is all about. Why restrict yourself to one limited activity? Freedom is about variation and variety.

Sure, I don't have to be conscious. It's just what satisfies me. Everyday, doing what I can to be human. I like the feeling of developments in wisdom, where my mind opens up just a bit more. I can't help going forward with this path. I have renewed my 'marriage vows' to give my all to philosophy, for so often and so long now, that there's no turning back - it's physically structured in my brain.

Kelly, this is just my opinion, but you seem like a very high-energy person, and you also seem like you have focused all that energy into one activity that you value – namely spreading wisdom. However, such a focus maybe a little too imbalanced, perhaps almost neurotic.

It's neurotic if I am disconnected from life.

But the way things are, I'm slowly becoming more immersed in the stillness between life and death, and slowly becoming less neurotic.

It's a slow process. I do tend to get overly active and dance around on the branches a lot, tiring myself out.

Part of enlightenment is just letting go and not fighting ‘what is’.

There is no such thing.

You need to allow things to unfold as they happen rather than constantly forcing them in an act of will.

One cannot help choosing and valuing. That affects how things unfold considerably.

It part of the package – its part of totally facing death… and why not spend a week doing absolutely nothing…? Don’t write on GF, don’t meet up with people in coffeeshops, basically, don’t care so much, indulge in your own sensual enjoyment for awhile, cook yourself some really lavish meals, be selfish, see how that feels….clear your mind, lay in a hot bath, while trying not to fantasize about what you should do next.

You can see it for yourself: by philosophy you really mean selflessness.

I think what you're concerned about, is that you aren't ready for a full-scale commitment to philosophy. So you're criticising what I'm doing, which seems to you to be that sort of commitment. But if you don't feel ready to take things to a higher level, then that's what you have to accept.

It's true that there is some strain in my current level of existence. But I'm managing alright. If it gets a bit rough, I'll probably take some time off, and go socialise with Kierkegaard, as I'm missing our conversations.

Easy solution is to buy a large building to house many people look where prices are low many places there are like this, work together on land good for body and mind, also presence give credibility to mission, money is no problem if you know who to ask, always someone who get lump of money from inheritance usually.

Kelly,

I'm actually mediocre, hypocritical, lazy, and spend too much time in the animal realms.

But if that is the fact - that you need a certain amount of animal realms in your life, then face it in an unemotional manner without becoming more regimented in your philosophy. The body is an organism that has certain bodily requirements, and you can allow the body to experience what it needs, without reacting emotionally to it, do you follow?

You're free to choose, but there are always consequences.

Yes, but you learn to accept consequences if they are necessary.

Sure, I don't have to be conscious.

It means being balanced, being interested in philosophy and psychology, but also working away with what needs to be done in life at a more practical level.

One cannot help choosing and valuing. That affects how things unfold considerably.

But that doesn’t mean you fight it every step of the way, accepting imperfection causing a certain peace as well, as one is no longer fighting against a strong current that cannot be changed.

I think what you're concerned about, is that you aren't ready for a full-scale commitment to philosophy. So you're criticizing what I'm doing, which seems to you to be that sort of commitment. But if you don't feel ready to take things to a higher level, then that's what you have to accept.

How many years have you been fully committed to philosophy? Because I’m just suggesting that eventually, the soul becomes more balanced, moderate, and causal. Enlightenment is about finding a calm and stable mindset within your own being, which involves silencing the will's desire to be constantly battling imperfections that perhaps cannot be changed.

Rhett wrote:Not only that, but mortgage repayments can be less than rents. In my case, i am receiving $100/wk in rent from others, and because i had a good deposit my mortgage costs about $70 per week. So my house is being paid for by others plus i am getting extra cash. That is so, so much better than renting. Although i miss out on rent assistance from the government, which i think i should get. It keeps many in poverty the way they only help people who pay rent.

If you didn't have tenants would you be able to make your mortgage and utility payments? Do you work a full time job? Where did you initially get the money to put down on the house?

Ryan Rudolph wrote:

I'm actually mediocre, hypocritical, lazy, and spend too much time in the animal realms.

But if that is the fact - that you need a certain amount of animal realms in your life, then face it in an unemotional manner without becoming more regimented in your philosophy.

That might work for a 20 year old who hasn't wasted most of his or her life in grossly deluded states. It may seem narrow-minded and extreme, but sick people have to take their medicine.

The body is an organism that has certain bodily requirements, and you can allow the body to experience what it needs, without reacting emotionally to it, do you follow?

The illness of being comfortable in the animal realms (feeling at ease when fed, sheltered, and in having friends) is not about biological, but psychological, needs.

KJ: You're free to choose, but there are always consequences.

RR: Yes, but you learn to accept consequences if they are necessary.

That's a big if. Animal satisfaction is only necessary to the ego. The ego is literally starving without such fulfilment; yet its dying enhances life.

The purpose of life here below is to carry us to the highest degree of taedium vitae. He who then, brought to this point, can hold fast, or he whom God helps to be able to hold fast the thought that it is God, who by His love has brought him to this point: he, in a Christian sense, has passed the test of life, has become ripe for Eternity.
- Kierkegaard

Sure, I don't have to be conscious.

RR: It means being balanced, being interested in philosophy and psychology, but also working away with what needs to be done in life at a more practical level.

Science is wisdom. It is knowing what things are, and how they interrelate.

KJ: One cannot help choosing and valuing. That affects how things unfold considerably.

RR: But that doesn’t mean you fight it every step of the way, accepting imperfection causing a certain peace as well, as one is no longer fighting against a strong current that cannot be changed.

Maybe you're talking about something different, but from my perspective, the animal in us wants the easy path. Everything should be comfortable, and our greatest achievements drop into our laps without pain or exertion. It takes an effort not only to think, but to rise above this realm.

Then there is an additional effort to rise above the need to strive, and to have a purpose.

It's called will to consciousness for a reason. It does take a certain amount of effort to think.

KJ: I think what you're concerned about, is that you aren't ready for a full-scale commitment to philosophy. So you're criticizing what I'm doing, which seems to you to be that sort of commitment. But if you don't feel ready to take things to a higher level, then that's what you have to accept.

RR: How many years have you been fully committed to philosophy?

It seems to me that I have often only just started. I could do with a second lifetime.

Because I’m just suggesting that eventually, the soul becomes more balanced, moderate, and causal. Enlightenment is about finding a calm and stable mindset within your own being, which involves silencing the will's desire to be constantly battling imperfections that perhaps cannot be changed.

Enlightenment is precisely not about finding a calm and stable mindset within your own being. That is what modern psychology is after, and it's a deluded endeavour, though relatively useful, such as for people with significant emotional damage.

Enlightenment is about what one truly is, which forces one to realise the importance of abandoning all resting places.

Kelly,

Enlightenment is precisely not about finding a calm and stable mindset within your own being. That is what modern psychology is after, and it's a deluded endeavour, though relatively useful, such as for people with significant emotional damage.

Enlightenment is about what one truly is, which forces one to realise the importance of abandoning all resting places.

Perhaps we are at two different stages, but personally, you're entire extreme position seems over the top to me. You sound like a hypersensitive war general high on testosterone supplements. Perhaps it will work for you, although it sounds a tad willful.

An enlighened person actually becomes quite meek, mellow, and relaxed in their mindset. I think you need to take a long look in the mirror, and take notice of how many blood vessels are popping out on your neck and forehead....

(Observing from the sidelines)

Kelly: Enlightenment is precisely not about finding a calm and stable mindset within your own being. That is what modern psychology is after, and it's a deluded endeavour, though relatively useful, such as for people with significant emotional damage.

Enlightenment is about what one truly is, which forces one to realise the importance of abandoning all resting places.

Ryan: An enlighened person actually becomes quite meek, mellow, and relaxed in their mindset.

Golly -- housing issues aside for a moment -- Ryan and Kelly have all but announced their Enlightened status by now. This is quite momentous. As far as I know they are the only two of the long-timers besides QRS who have done this, although Trevor has come close, and Nick certainly speaks as though he thinks he is. I say long-timers to differentiate from some like mikiel who seem to have significantly different definitions of the term.

I guess things are really progressing here at Genius.