Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Pye
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Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Pye »

*Disclaimer* The following is rendered rapidly and in conversational style, so if the precision is not up to snuff, it gets more work later on. Even if no single reason stands as reason enough, the collective force of it perhaps at least merits pause.


Twelve Reasons to Hold Scientific Determinism (a.k.a. brain science) at Arm's Length


1. Consciousness is movement and not determinable thing, hence it has no meaning in its isolated parts or mechanisms. Even if brain science locates things inside the brain that appear as evidence for this or that, there is little way to tell if experience itself did not make the impress prior to the trail it left as evidence. (conditions)

2. As movement, consciousness is of an indeterminable size/shape/quality, until it has 'completed' that movement. As long as the being is living, there is no such completion, and hence, no determinable shape in which to state its fullest nature. (the open-ended nature of consciousness)

3. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle: Before science can look into the brain, it has to have something to look for. It will find it. And that's all it will find. Into this category, we can find poured the innumerable agendas that every scientific endeavor must set itself up with before it can endeavor at all.

4. The Problem of the Thing Looking at Itself: In such a scheme, the instrument is trying to measure its own instrumentation, perhaps with the assumption that it can exceed its own instrumentation in order to find out things about itself.

5. The pursuit of physical components to locate immovable, material, innate characteristics in the human being is similar to searching for the god-seed. The danger in this approach is as pernicious as in that of all religious fundamentalists, and equally serviceable to dogma and excuse.

6. Consciousness is nothing until it is moving in exchange with the conditions (world) that make it move. In this molten exchange, 'external' conditions are at every moment creating consciousness, just as consciousness is taking in and forming a world for its grasping. As in #1, attempts to cut across that movement/exchange will be about as useful to the person who wants to learn about human thinking, as is a photograph of a person running is useful to the person who wants to learn to run. Yes, something in the way of information, or form, will emerge, but it will never be the complete picture. It might even confuse the complete picture.

7. Because of the molten nature of the consciousness/world exchange, what scientific determinism will hold as rule for one cannot be held as rule for all. Each organ of consciousness occupies and is influenced by its immediate surrounds, and as we seem to see, no two things can occupy the same place at the same time. Even if we are sitting next to one another on the sofa, the one closest to the fireplace will have a different experience/impress of the world than the one sitting farther away. Any rule-of-thumb that human determinism can give us must fall back upon the individual, rather than the species, anyway.

8. Scientific Determinism is the uneasy bedfellow of all beliefs (or rather disbeliefs) that deny the existence of any sort of human agency whatsoever. Like 'no-self' buddhists, human beings are the passive substance in a chain of cause and effect, rather than the conscious generators/originators of any effects themselves. This, in a sense, is a denial of the self-same consciousness that scientific determinism is looking for. Further, it ignores the problem of individual consciousness as mentioned in #7. Even if scientific determinism can explain via the chain of cause and effect what led this particular individual to do this particular thing, it is still, and will always, be stuck dealing with this thing one-by-one.

9. Pure Scientific Determinism gives you no wiggle room at all to discuss choices of any kind. No more "some things we can choose and others we can't," etc. All sense of choice falls entirely under its axe.

10. Being as Scientific Determinism is unable to transcend the problem of individual consciousness and its immediate conditions, it will only ever be able to say something about an individual, and not human beings in general. We could, like many do, hand over an understanding of our individual selves to the therapist (i.e. let others declare the nature of our natures for us), or we could do the work ourselves. Because of the conditions mentioned in #6, we can become more conscious creators of and in this molten exchange.

11. The presence of warts were once supposed to identify the witch; the lack of height to identify the dictator; the large proboscis to mark the endowments of the donjuan; the presence of breasts - a block to everyone's brain. Now we can see brain waves and tiny rents and wrinkles in that brain. Every bit of it ought to be approached with a healthy skepticism that the mistaken assumptions of the past might have taught us. The mechanisms alone are meaningless in light of the world they mechanize with. It's like peering inside a watch to find out how it works, and assuming you are going to come away with an understanding of time.

12. If we are to err on either side: the side of immovable/material/destined consciousness [i.e. determinism]; or the side of open-ended conscious possibility, I should like to err on the latter side in every case. In the spirit of Leyla's chicken stories, I have a "squirrel-proof" bird feeder in the yard, but since the squirrels don't know that, they're getting up there anyway.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

What is this argument trying to prove exactly? That you have a fear of the potential of brain science? Personally, I think brain science in conjunction with other sciences such as endocrinology and genetics has great potential to eliminate many undesirable imperfections from the genome that ultimately stunt the emergence of rationality.

The genome gives birth to the behavior of the glands, organs, and brain tissues, and yes the environment interacts by influencing the body in some ways. However, let us not forget the power of the character to resist change from the powers of rational thought. And in my opinion, that resistance is ultimately caused by undesirable traits in the genes, glands, and neural network.

And these traits should be properly understood in contrast to more desirable traits, and the undesirable traits should be weeded out of the genone completely. It is no different than growing healthy plants. You study the healthy ones, in contrast to the unhealthy ones, and make sure the seed of the healthy one survives into the next generation.

Brain science has a lot of potential in this regard.
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Tomas
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Re: Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Tomas »

dejavu wrote:
What is this argument trying to prove exactly? That you have a fear of the potential of brain science?
I don't think that is at all the point Pye is making.

The scientific method is beneath us in terms of creating higher selves. Rationality may be produced by elimination, but not genius.

What are your thoughts on eugenics?
You are gonna have to use two eyes for his "eye-opener" answer(s).

Hint - His Dr. Mengele.


.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Pye wrote about "Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length"

Isn't science supposed to be about holding all kinds of stuff at arm's length in the first place?

Or is it here more about having twelve reasons to hold reason at arm's length? Brain science should be nothing but a practical application of reason and thereby respecting its inherent limitations. Limitations which are its very mechanisms and not some boundary that reasonable people should be looking to blur.

Pye, if it can be said that the horizon of people's mind is narrowing, becoming more and more like the mediocre media we're using: flat, nervous and superficial - increasingly unaware of any deeper notion or motion behind it - then this is not caused by your bogyman of "Pure Scientific Determinism" but rather the other way around. This way you only appear to be distancing yourself from one of the main means to disinfection given to us in this day and age.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

dajavu,
What are your thoughts on eugenics?
I’m very pro-eugenics, and even there is a lot of fear and emotion surrounding it, here is a rational example as to why it is a moral position. For instance: Suppose you had the choice to consciously create a son who is either a serial rapist, a down-syndrome child, a cripple in a wheelchair, a deaf mute, a naturally obese insecure person with cancer-causing genes, or a healthy fit enlightened rationalist, which one would you choose? Because you’d be a fool to consciously choose an inferior mind and body over a great mind and body, and the interesting thing is that science is close to reaching a point where specialists will be able to consciously correct imperfections in our genes, as a means to increase the quality of consciousness, and the quality of our lives in general.

It is an exciting time. It will allow humanity to free itself from the cruel and indifferent nature of evolution, and consciously become the collective rationalists that we are destined to be. Genetic Engineering combined with the greatest rational philosophy will be a force to be reckoned with. On the one hand, genetic engineering can ensure a healthily foundation and the framework for intelligence from the outset, while rationalist philosophy can provide the environment to slowly starve the heart of the ego. And it may not stop at the biological organism. We may eventually incorporate technology into our bodies after we perfect our biology, thus increasing our life expectancies, our brain mass, or whatever other traits that we deem necessary at that time.

Technology is a promise to give something to the masculine mind that it yearns for, and that is the power to consciously create rational perfection, where nature has feebly failed. The natural mechanism of evolution has kept the species progressing up until this point, but barely. As our technology becomes more powerful, we shouldn’t allow the irrational nature of evolution to keep creating madness into this world because the probability that we will destroy ourselves only increases as the power of our technology increases.

Technology makes it easier for humans to manifest their deepest desires, and that is why it is so crucial for humanity to use the best-applied science with the best philosophy to defeat the emotional madness that is crippling this world. Irrationality is the fault of evolution, the fault of nature. Not the fault of the progress of science and philosophy, which aims to eradicate irrationality.

How can we openly support nature/evolution: one of the most common unconscious desires of both men and women is for the end of the world to come with some sort of supernatural intervention gong show… What madness is this! Especially when combined with powerful life destroying technology.

A good example of how evolution has failed us is that many times humans choose sexual mates based on emotionalism, rather than the desire to maximize the intelligence of the species. Women are the relevant example because many times they are the ones who ultimately decide the quality of offspring we will see into the next generation, as she will only spread her legs to certain evils. And an interesting example of our period is how many young middle-class woman are drawn to the powerful flashy criminal persona of the hip-hop rap artist. Many times, women are sexually drawn to what is exciting/powerful/attractive, not what is intelligent. Moreover, They are drawn to the rap artist, the rock star, the comedian, the ken barbie doll, the greedy business tycoon, the military Rambo in a uniform, the sketchy lawyer, and all the rest of it. What governs reproductive choice is women’s unconscious need for an attraction to physical beauty, romance, pleasure, power and security, but never the desire to maximize intelligence, or support the cause of absolute truth.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Dejavu,
We can become much more than mere 'rationalists'.
What is higher than the rationalist?
With a perfected biology, what would be the point
?

That very thing, perfection. Humans are presently quite the sorry lot, curiosity of evolution.
I see better grounds for eugenics than moral ones.
How so?
Couples who are not confident in their power to consciously conceive a child greater than themselves, and instead give the task over to 'specialists'?
but couples are generally clueless about parenting, and the right genetic characteristics to conceive. For instance: Unhealthy and unintelligent women and men choose to have children out of egotistical greed, rather than what is best for the child.
Evolution is only indifferent insofar as we imagine our consciousness has no bearing on it
But the quality of our consciousness is totally dependent on how well the body and mind is functioning, which is dependent on genes, glands, neurological complexity and all the rest of it. Consciousness is a slave to our material arrangement, which is pure luck.
Have we yet exhausted the possibilities of transforming the most dangerous and questionable aspects of ourselves to our benefit?
The problem is that the majority are not interested in any sort of deep transformation, as they are content with mediocrity. Truth either distresses them, or bores them.
Intelligent people will always be attracted to each other, don't worry about that.
No, beautiful people are attracted to each other, but intelligent people are weary of romantic relations altogether. Romance can only breed evil. Attachment to others as a separate form only breeds suffering, and confusion.
Pye
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Re: Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Pye »

It is interesting to note that - whilst it is so often said that women are obsessed with babies and procreation, so many men jump in there to get their hand in breeding matters, and obsessively, I might add. This is your corrective to your sense of being "left out" by nature in the first place. Social order also does not permit you to jump/rape/impregnate women, either. All you [rhetorical you] have left is to attempt to control the matter from the high-minded sidelines, the very essence of patrichian social structures and concerns. But you do this, as Nietzsche might say, from a deficit. Hence, you whine . . . .

Perhaps, too, you might take into account the necessity of diversity to the health of any species. And taking this into account might enable you to make room for these stupid women and their stupid choices for mates. What is it to you that women appear to breed indiscriminately? One of them might have enabled the right mix for your own vaunted "genius." Further, genius will mean nothing without the everyone else to compare it to. This world of pure genius-strain has the same fatality built into it that any singular strain will have. One tiny outbreak of genius flu, and down goes the lot of you.

I take it back, deja vu. You are not "short-sighted" in your envisaging, as I originally thought; and you are most certainly not Dan Rowden.


edit: if you are, I will eat my hat. I have a hat here; I will eat it. ;)
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Pye,
One of them might have enabled the right mix for your own vaunted "genius."
only by accident, as the last thing women want for their children is for them to turn out to be a genius, as they prefer a well adapted child that relates well to the current mediocrity and status quo. Generally speaking, rationality alienates women, and so the last thing they want is to feel alienated from their children. That is why both men and women unconsciously push their children into very mediocre interests and activities.
This world of pure genius-strain has the same fatality built into it that any singular strain will have. One tiny outbreak of genius flu, and down goes the lot of you.
Diversity was necessary when humans were required to survive in specific ‘raw’ environments. This cruel predicament made genetic mutations necessary for the survival of the species. However, with the evolution of technology, any race or mutation of human can survive in most areas of the world where civilized technology has transformed the environment. For instance: Africans can now survive in cold climates, whereas whites can survive in African cities.

Moreover, each individual will retain a certain amount of their genetic uniqueness anyway - all we are really talking about is eliminating the imperfections from the genome that ultimately prevent health of body and health of mind. For instance: The deficient gene (s) that cause thyroid problems, which results in emotional instability, or the deficient gene that causes some fatal disease later in life.

However, the goal should be uniformity of mind, meaning we want the same quality of mind operating in each individual.
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Blair
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Re: Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Blair »

I can think of twelve, edgy reasons to hold Pye's horseshit at arms length.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

I'll say it again. After perfecting ourselves biologically, what would be the point in incorporating technology into our bodies?
To go beyond biology into some unknown territory, and perhaps gain access to even higher planes of consciousness.

I’m don’t claim to know what is possible, but I suspect that the present human is just a crude, incomplete and rough template of what is coming over the horizon.
Genius. Rationality is only how we make up for its deficit.
but a genius implies rationality, a genius is rational by definition.
By giving no moral consideration, by seeing clearly what is possible and what is needful, and being desirous of advance.
You cannot hold a stance of something that is needful without taking a moral position. A moral position simply involves preferring something over another thing because you believe it has better outcomes. Basically a moral position can be more intelligent that its use by religious groups and so on.
Realistically, no-one wants their children to be less than themsleves, regardless of all their other drives.
Less, maybe not, but parents do not want their children to exceed them, genius alienates the child from the parent if the parent is not genius.
"Romance can only breed evil" lol What of love? Will you let intelligent people love eachother? When are they big enough for it in your eyes? (:D)
Romantic love is simply a delusion of evolution that has functioned up until this point to keep the species going. However, enlightened minds do not love others in a romantic sense, but the behave compassionately in an absolute sense.
Pye
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Re: Twelve Reasons to Hold Brain Science at Arm's Length

Post by Pye »

prince: I can think of twelve, edgy reasons to hold Pye's horseshit at arms length.
Bring 'em on, prince poofter.

Just make sure you directly address the reasoning in Horseshit Points 1 through 12.

Prove I am wrong that you are unable to directly address anything.
Ryan: Diversity was necessary when humans were required to survive in specific ‘raw’ environments . . . . However, with the evolution of technology, any race or mutation of human can survive in most areas of the world where civilized technology has transformed the environment.
This is extraordinarily short-sighted and over-estimated. "Technology" has no god-like properties of protection or defense. It, too, humans must evolve to bear. Within it as well are potential fatalities in the substances used and the practices adopted. The underpants of technological religiosity are sticking out here . . . .
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